Let's talk 3D graphics

[Creature XL]

I want to say something but I'm speechless ... You didn't play Elite ? Like - never ?

Docking computer ? Narcotics ? Hyperdrive ? Thargoids !?!? .....

 

I've got to sit down... This is a shock... There exists a respectable nerd who didn't play Elite... You Sir deserve to sit in the corner... For an hour at least... Then you must play Elite and let us know of how awesome it is!

 

On the non-silly side, Elite is a game that influenced more people than any other before it (and many others after it)... Might not look and feel like much in 2015, but back than it was like a game came 'back from the future'... Yeah, it's that good

 

Atari deserves it's 3d-vector-space-adventure. This game that Dr.Sid is making looks to me like pretty good candidate. Wait and see.

 

Well, being an Atari user back then, I haven't played Elite aswell.

Question is: Is it playable in 2015 or is it "just that good" when you are 16 in the 80s?

[R0ger]

I actually didn't play Elite either. I've seen it on my cousin's C64. Maybe docked once or twice. But never really played it. I did play Frontier, and Frontier First encounters though. I mean .. a LOT ..

And I played Mercenary. And while scope and freedom of Frontier is nice, I dont understand why anyone would want to trade fruits as main gameplay element. I like the mystery and exploration of Mercenary a bit more.

[potatohead]

I want to say something but I'm speechless ... You didn't play Elite ? Like - never ?

Docking computer ? Narcotics ? Hyperdrive ? Thargoids !?!? .....

 

I've got to sit down... This is a shock... There exists a respectable nerd who didn't play Elite... You Sir deserve to sit in the corner... For an hour at least... Then you must play Elite and let us know of how awesome it is!

 

On the non-silly side, Elite is a game that influenced more people than any other before it (and many others after it)... Might not look and feel like much in 2015, but back than it was like a game came 'back from the future'... Yeah, it's that good

 

Atari deserves it's 3d-vector-space-adventure. This game that Dr.Sid is making looks to me like pretty good candidate. Wait and see.

I have the Apple 2 version queued for this weekend. Yeah, I totally missed out. Cool beans. That means I've got a killer classic experience on tap and fresh.

 

Love it.

[JamesD]

Make sure you have a copy of the manual.

[potatohead]

Good call. I'll print it tomorrow.

[popmilo]

 

Well, being an Atari user back then, I haven't played Elite aswell.

Question is: Is it playable in 2015 or is it "just that good" when you are 16 in the 80s?

Yeah, we are all under influence of that 'first childhood computer' niche we belonged to.

As my first computer was Commodore (blasphemy, I know ) who knows what good games I've missed from Atari side back in the 80s and played for the first time only in the last decade as I've discovered them.

 

On Elite subject - no I don't think it's just that good in 2015... Not after playing X beyond frontier and EVE

 

But... If you can manage to turn off your 'modern critic' view for couple hours and imagine being back in childhood, it's Friday, no homework to be done, it's raining outside and parents let you play because you were good.... Ufff.... Enjoy the vast space Elite provides and make sure you save often - you never know what can hit you in the space or maybe come out of your cargo

[potatohead]

Oh, this game is good! And yes, it's totally playable.

 

Had a brief play last night. Sort of a final check before the weekend, when I've got a few hours to burn on things I've queued up. Elite might take a nice chunk of that. Good thing I did the quick run. The Apple version appears to have a different set of keys, but they also appear to be the C64 keys, or mostly... One more test should confirm, but I was able to do a lot of things. Got a few trouble spots sorted out.

 

For great fun, I'm playing on my //e, so I've a proper joystick, and such. I've also got dual screens running on that one. One amber, one color. This probably was common. That's how I've always run the Apple. Artifact color has it's disadvantages, and text or other line detail can be just a bit annoying. Just look at the display that makes the most sense, done!

 

There is this talk: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014628/Classic-Game-Postmortem

 

He goes into good detail on all the optimizations they did! And it's basically all of them. Tokenizing their text tokens! (Among many other things, such as lazy drawing and evaluation, table based math for the projection matrices... brilliant!)

 

"Star Raiders" was an influence of theirs, and it shows. They blew "Star Raiders" out of the water on feel, options, and that procedural generation of everything. Wow!

 

I'm looking forward to playing enough to get some skill and get challenged a little.

 

Honestly, the part I like the most is they made the tradeoffs so well. The 3D is a bit crappy, but you don't care. It's fast enough to be immersive, and it's effective enough to work with. Very nicely done. If anybody does this, I would recommend the talk, then go play the game. As you see that stuff play out, a lot of the magic does too. I know for a fact, I would have felt very good about this game.

 

Back in the day, I mostly gamed on Atari. I got the Apple machine for more serious uses, and did game on it, but mostly favored the RPG, "ULTIMA" type games on that machine. It did them very well, and being a 6 color machine, that's just enough to map anything. 4 colors just doesn't quite work. There were a few action / arcade titles I played, but nobody seemed to have or ever talk about "Elite" in the little town I came from. We just missed it. So, the Apple got used for programming, some business tasks, actual word processing and publishing, and RPG + Drol, BOLO (recommended), ROBOTON (also recommended, but you wouldn't think the Apple could do that one, but it does very well), etc...

 

Had I seen this, I would have played the shit out of it. No joke.

 

There is an Atari 8 bit demo and hack on Ian's page here: http://www.elitehomepage.org/archive/index.htm

 

As for speed, etc... The Apple does fairly well. It's not as interactive as the BBC version is, but it's way better than I would have expected.

 

An Atari 8 bit version would be great! One could spiff up the text pages some, definitely split the display for 3D monochrome detail, and run the bottom with some fancy looks, similar to RoF... Like the ORIC version. (and that bottom screen is very nicely done for the time period, BTW)

 

Hey, Ian has the BBC Basic source code for at least one version here: http://www.elitehomepage.org/archive/a/a4080610.zip

 

Anyone look at these? Unreal.

 

Being from the States, I didn't get to use BBC Basic at all. I did tinker with it some in the early era of emulation, and at the prompting of friends as we all got to know one another online. But I had no idea really. Those sources are hard to read, mostly due do their packing in everything as tight as they could. I've a mind to expand that some for clarity and just read through it.

 

Just the other day, a good friend and I, who are working on a modern / retro type system we want to build just for us, if nothing else, were talking about programming environments, and the BBC Basic came up. A few words: In-line assembly.

 

Here on AA, Batari Basic has that, and it's a doddle to write little routines. Beautiful to use, labels and all that just work. The BBC Basic is similar, and that one could write something like "Elite" on the language that came with the system? No tools other than those "in the box?" Brilliant! I'm very seriously impressed by this work on that basis.

 

Back in the day, one could do stuff like this with the Apple. It had a mini-assembler, monitor, and basic, among other little tools built in. Doing a project like this would have meant making a big memory map, some tables for jumps, etc... then building the bits, saving them off, and integrating them with an Applesoft program. Lots of work, but possible. The BBC guys really nailed this much better. I wonder what Ian used to do the Apple port... anyone know?

 

When I got my own, "better" machine, which at first was an Atari, then Color Computer, I noted the distinct lack of those tools. Mowed lawns and such to get them, and sort of limped along with type in tools from "COMPUTE" too. Mac 65 for the Atari, and EDTASM for the CoCo. Expensive, but then, it's all assembly language. It's most fun when the two just blend into one thing, and that can be seen in the Elite source code. They just packed it all in there! Damn cool.

 

**A little RANT MODE = 1 So, we've got bigger environments now, and we talk about portable, scalable, and all that. Good stuff. In many circles, the mere mention of in-line is on par with GOTO. Ugly dialogs. But, the one thing I could never quite get away from is an environment like BBC Basic, and anything capable of simple, sane, in line ASM, would never scale, and isn't so portable, but it does allow people to write really awesome programs. We are missing that in some ways. Just saying.*** RANT MODE = 0

 

In some ways, it's really great to see it and have that insight. Some of the wonder isn't there, because we know stuff now, but what does seem to shine through is the feel. You are there, and you can do whatever you want! Very impressive.

 

And 24K working code and data space people. (Ok, not counting the stuff they just loaded right to the screen.) Tokenized BASIC, and in-line assembly language. Absolutely brilliant.

 

So I wonder. On one hand, let's say those kids back then had actually been on a 64K machine. Would it have been more awesome, or would it have spiraled off into a mess? Seems to me, the time, place, their vision, the tools, constraints, all combined to forge a perfect thing.

 

Edit:

 

My wife: What the heck is that?

 

Me: One of the greatest games ever made!

 

Wife: Ugh. it's a few beeps, some blinky lines, and the odd thing or two that might look like something...

 

Me: Theatre of the mind. That is what this is.

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by potatohead

[JamesD]

Elite pretty much just used BBC BASIC as an assembler.
I spent a lot of time turning it into actual assembly code for an assembler.

Sadly, it's lacking in labels and comments so porting it would be a bit of a chore and you might be better off using a disassembly.
The Atom port is pretty much just some hacks to the Electron version.

[potatohead]

Yes. It is a mess.

 

Do you happen to have that? I would love to read through a clearer code body.

[JamesD]

Yes. It is a mess.

 

Do you happen to have that? I would love to read through a clearer code body.

I think that went up in flames with my computers and backup drives.

[potatohead]

Oh yeah. Shit. That is a serious bummer man. I forgot.

 

I know a few people who have struggled with a similar happening.

[JamesD]

I sent what I found. It's not the single assembler file I was working on but it's mostly in assembler format.
It has enough labels and comments to figure a few things out but a lot of the labels are worthless until you spend some time going through the code.
If you get it assembling as one file I'd appreciate a copy.

[popmilo]

Me: Theatre of the mind. That is what this is.

 

Well said ...

That theater has best movies and stories ever

[potatohead]

Indeed.

 

...which reminds me. Time to go and play some IF on my new phone.

[Wrathchild]

@potatohead and JamesD

 

take a look at the links through here

 

The last BBC port binary is here

 

It is possible to fly around / trade / fight etc in the Atari version but the substitute key handler I added isn't the best.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Wrathchild

[JamesD]

@potatohead and JamesD

 

take a look at the links through here

 

The last BBC port binary is here

 

It is possible to fly around / trade / fight etc in the Atari version but the substitute key handler I added isn't the best.

I was turning it back into normal assembler format so I could port it to another CPU.

[kiwilove]

 

Well said ...

That theater has best movies and stories ever

 

 

I think the opposite - that a lot of movie content these days is simply 'braindead'. That the professional writers/directors/etc are likewise.

That the story content is crap these days. It is the same old same old stuff being used again and again - that has no real value in it anyway.

 

We see it all again particularly in blockbusters and other expensive over the top movies.

 

There simply has to be a general move away from violence for violence sake. The superhero movies only promote the use of violence - and that is not a good role model.

You can never use violence to end violence - and it only perpetuates the violence cycle. In the movies the good guys become indistinguishable from the bad guys. In 'war' this is always the case - there is no right side. In war - everybody loses. Truly. The only way out - is via education. For people to know the true issues involved - and not dress it up in wrong values being cited.

All the time religion gets in the way - no one dares say the obvious in movies - for fear of retaliation. eg. There are always more reasons why religious God does not exist at all - and few, if any valid reasons why their God exist. So-called faith and hope - means also that anything can be 'real' if you believe it to be so.

There is the mistaken view - that you can't reason it all out - that it's too complicated and detailed etc. But actually it's the opposite. It's very plain and simple. Some things exist in this world and some do not. But also there always remain mystery in specific areas and things - and 'God' is not one of these.

 

Harvey

[potatohead]

Okie Dokie.

[popmilo]

 

I think the opposite - that a lot of movie content these days is simply 'braindead'. That the professional writers/directors/etc are likewise.

That the story content is crap these days. It is the same old same old stuff being used again and again - that has no real value in it anyway.

...

Huh... Didn't realize there could be an actual place called "Theatre of the mind" showing current Hollywood blockbusters

 

What Potatohead mentioned is that thing that plays stories in our heads. Those stories we enjoyed more as kids playing Elite and playing with sticks and ropes in back garden vs beeing served with stories, characters and looks in newer games and movies as you said.

 

Don't know about you but I felt like mix of Starbuck and Han Solo while playing Elite and Mercenery... Hope I'll feel similar with new game coming from Dr.Sid.

[potatohead]

Yeah, that's exactly it. The real great thing about Elite is there is just enough there to sketch out possibilities. From there, one can go and do things, dream, explore, and just kind of experience it all. Very nice. Once you know how to play some, the game just doesn't get in the way, and I found myself reading the little descriptions, picturing each world in various ways, that "theatre" working nicely enough. Totally get why this game had the impact it did. Really is a treasure. And I'm kind of stunned nobody knew of it where I grew up. We totally missed this one. As I've said, I would have played the crap out of this thing. Best scenario would be to have a friend there, take turns, map stuff out, plan trades, kills, etc...

 

But I got a few nice hours on a Saturday, enjoying my Apple. Worth it.

 

"Stick and ropes", yeah a lot of my childhood was outside imagining all sorts of things, often with friends, and we incorporated whatever was there into the whole thing. Good times.

 

On a side note, having kids can spark this again. We've had some of those same times. Get a weekend free, and be somewhere outside, far away from it all. That little spark comes back, and it can go for hours. Long hours too. Good times. Recommended.

Edited May 6, 2015 by potatohead

[JamesD]

I was in college when Elite came out and was too busy to mess with it at the time.
Elite is just immersive enough to draw you in and gives you a lot of freedom to explore and play it the way you want.

Starbuck... ah yes... Battlestar Galactica. I've always wanted a game with a long range scan like the Vipers.

[popmilo]

I was in college when Elite came out and was too busy to mess with it at the time.

Elite is just immersive enough to draw you in and gives you a lot of freedom to explore and play it the way you want.

Strangely we've didn't spend much time on Elite when we were younger. Guess we were busy going outside playing sports.

Best immersive experience for us in context of space-trading game came little later when we were on college and a friend brought C64 to us 'just to remind ourselves how it used to be'

Problem was game called 'Moonfall'. Scene like "I don't care about upcoming exams, I still need to upgrade ship, buy three more towns and then I will own the planet!"

 

As this topic is about 3d graphics, it would be proper to say that Moonfall had much simpler 3d. Only horizontal rotation, vertical change of height and wireframe graphics simpler than what 'Elite' (no hidden line removal).

What made it a good game was underground objects similar to Mercenary, radar, storms, trading, pirates, jump drive.... Who knows what else... Will have to play it again

[R0ger]

Well for sure I can promise this: the game will leave a lot of room for imagination