Jaguar vs. N64

[+Sauron]

5 hours ago, captainblack said:

Gunstar made a good point that it makes more sense to compare Jaguar to Sega CD, 32X, and 3DO. When you think about it Sega CD is basically the Jaguar if all of its problems were taken away in exchange for only working if tethered to a Genesis lol

The Sega CD was not nearly as powerful as the Jaguar, no idea where you're getting this from.

 

[captainblack]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

The Sega CD was not nearly as powerful as the Jaguar, no idea where you're getting this from.

 

Im getting it from having a lot of experience with both libraries. Not really all that concerns with who has the better specs if they cant actually use it to amount to anything. For all its power the Jag manages some clunky 3D games and some nice 2D/pseudo-3D games, basically the same as Sega CD. The only game where the Jag really looks head and shoulders above the Sega CD in terms of power is Battlemorph. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by captainblack

[+CyranoJ]

11 hours ago, sirlynxalot said:

I guess this old video came out a little after this thread died down, but its a fun excuse to see these cool lumps of plastic next to each other and hear some non-technical comparisons.

Facebook enabled people to stream their idiot thoughts directly to other people's screens.

Youtube allows us to see them while they do it.

[philipj]

The "Jaguar" is obviously more powerful than the "Sega CD", but there's one thing I admire about the Sega CD unit and that's the ASIC chip that allows for fast scaling and rotating sprites much like the Jag's "Object Processor"... Of course they work differently, but they both handle sprites in similar fashion with the OP being the more advanced processor.

[+Sauron]

8 hours ago, captainblack said:

Im getting it from having a lot of experience with both libraries. Not really all that concerns with who has the better specs if they cant actually use it to amount to anything. For all its power the Jag manages some clunky 3D games and some nice 2D/pseudo-3D games, basically the same as Sega CD. The only game where the Jag really looks head and shoulders above the Sega CD in terms of power is Battlemorph. 

The problem was with the developers (or lack thereof), not with the Jag's hardware. The Jag is way more powerful than the Sega CD, and it's not even close.

 

[agradeneu]

10 hours ago, captainblack said:

Im getting it from having a lot of experience with both libraries. Not really all that concerns with who has the better specs if they cant actually use it to amount to anything. For all its power the Jag manages some clunky 3D games and some nice 2D/pseudo-3D games, basically the same as Sega CD. The only game where the Jag really looks head and shoulders above the Sega CD in terms of power is Battlemorph. 

Its way ahead in anything - color detail for sprites/bitmaps, 3D polygon graphics, FMV res and color....

The Sega CD is great with scaling though, but otherwise its a Genesis with more data storage (but slow access speed). The best Jaguar games could not be done on the Sega CD, don't know why you think only Battlemorph was if there are technically even better games?

If this is based on your experience on the library I guess you left out the best pieces?!

Edit: Even a "crap" game like Club Drive would not be easy to achieve on Sega CD. The engine requires some decent 3D capabilities. Which the Sega CD simply does not have.

Edited June 21, 2021 by agradeneu

[captainblack]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

The problem was with the developers (or lack thereof), not with the Jag's hardware. The Jag is way more powerful than the Sega CD, and it's not even close.

 

This was basically what I was getting at. The two are from the same era but unlike the Jag, Sega CD had all the resources it needed to realize its potential. The Jag would have had a higher ceiling though so I see your point.

[sirlynxalot]

I can't imagine any game on the sega cd achieving the results of the 3d jag games like cybermorph, hoverstrike, tempest 2000, etc.  I guess the jag 2d stuff that wasn't a 16 bit port, like Ultra Vortek, Rayman, Kasumi Ninja, Flip Out, etc. could probably have OK versions done on the sega cd, but they might need to have a reduced colors and/or cut animations and sound due to the reduced sega genesis color palette and slow transfer speed from the sega cd disc drive to the system.  Mortal Kombat I on sega CD is missing loads of stuff that the 16 bit cart based systems were able to keep, such as background stage animations, and is a good example of how much stuff needed to be cut out to get a port of that game on the system.

[captainblack]

34 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

Its way ahead in anything - color detail for sprites/bitmaps, 3D polygon graphics, FMV res and color....

The Sega CD is great with scaling though, but otherwise its a Genesis with more data storage (but slow access speed). The best Jaguar games could not be done on the Sega CD, don't know why you think only Battlemorph was if there are technically even better games?

If this is based on your experience on the library I guess you left out the best pieces?!

Edit: Even a "crap" game like Club Drive would not be easy to achieve on Sega CD. The engine requires some decent 3D capabilities. Which the Sega CD simply does not have.

What games would you say are head and shoulders above anything on Sega CD? Im not talking about how many colors displayed on screen at once or anything like that, I mean in terms of the gameplay provided. If you mean that Jag's clunky 3D games look nicer than Sega CD's clunky 3D games I agree, but it doesnt really change the gameplay experience in my humble opinion.

[Clint Thompson]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

The problem was with the developers (or lack thereof), not with the Jag's hardware.

 

Developers: We need a really high-end workstation and some great software to create some amazing content on...

 

Atari: Here's a potato from 1989, best we can do.

 

Developers: Can we at least get a copy of (x software) to create beautiful backdrops?

 

Atari: Beg the developers, maybe they'll cave and provide you a promo copy or something.

 

Based on a true story.

[captainblack]

4 minutes ago, sirlynxalot said:

I can't imagine any game on the sega cd achieving the results of the 3d jag games like cybermorph, hoverstrike, tempest 2000, etc.  I guess the jag 2d stuff that wasn't a 16 bit port, like Ultra Vortek, Rayman, Kasumi Ninja, Flip Out, etc. could probably have OK versions done on the sega cd, but they might need to have a reduced colors and/or cut animations and sound due to the reduced sega genesis color palette and slow transfer speed from the sega cd disc drive to the system.  Mortal Kombat I on sega CD is missing loads of stuff that the 16 bit cart based systems were able to keep, such as background stage animations, and is a good example of how much stuff needed to be cut out to get a port of that game on the system.

Consider a game like Stellar Fire on SCD, the polygons are less impressive than games like Cybermorph and Hoverstrike, but it runs way faster and gives more fluid gameplay. Not saying its better or more impressive, just that its in the same ball park.

[agradeneu]

20 minutes ago, captainblack said:

Consider a game like Stellar Fire on SCD, the polygons are less impressive than games like Cybermorph and Hoverstrike, but it runs way faster and gives more fluid gameplay. Not saying its better or more impressive, just that its in the same ball park.

It's in the ballpark of Atari ST and Amiga 3D games, not Jaguar. Nice attempt at trolling. 

[agradeneu]

41 minutes ago, captainblack said:

What games would you say are head and shoulders above anything on Sega CD? Im not talking about how many colors displayed on screen at once or anything like that, I mean in terms of the gameplay provided. If you mean that Jag's clunky 3D games look nicer than Sega CD's clunky 3D games I agree, but it doesnt really change the gameplay experience in my humble opinion.

You are trying to change your tune. Gameplay is a bit subjective as some ppl like 2600 games better than modern consoles. You were talking about power. 

And for clunkiness of 3D: even PS1 games are very clunky compared to modern standards (especially 3D camera). 

 

So whats your point? It's pretty obvious that games like Doom, Tempest2000 or Rayman can't be done on the Sega CD.  ?

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by agradeneu

[captainblack]

14 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

You are trying to change your tune. Gameplay is a bit subjective as some ppl like 2600 games better than modern consoles. You were talking about power. 

And for clunkiness of 3D: even PS1 games are very clunky compared to modern standards (especially 3D camera). 

 

So whats your point? It's pretty obvious that games like Doom, Tempest2000 or Rayman can't be done on the Sega CD.  ?

 

Check my original message, I didnt mention power at all. I said it makes more sense to compare the Jag to the Sega CD, 32X, and 3DO than it does to the N64. N64 was fully in the 3D era, Jag was part of the awkward transitional era is basically my point. Hardware changes with the era but what I was getting at was more of the style of games being made. To use your example Doom on Jag is more like Battlecorps on SCD than it is like Golden Eye on N64.

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, captainblack said:

Check my original message, I didnt mention power at all. I said it makes more sense to compare the Jag to the Sega CD, 32X, and 3DO than it does to the N64. N64 was fully in the 3D era, Jag was part of the awkward transitional era is basically my point. Hardware changes with the era but what I was getting at was more of the style of games being made. To use your example Doom on Jag is more like Battlecorps on SCD than it is like Golden Eye on N64.

That makes more sense! However, I dont think the Sega CD belongs into that group. It was mostly about playing Genesis games with added CD soundtracks or FMV junk.

It was an unpopular Add On for a very popular console. For Sega, it was a failure.

On the other hand, Cybermorph and AvP felt a bit revolutionary for their time. I don't think I considered the Jaguar as just an evolutionary step compared to the 16 bit systems.

 

I disagree the Sega CD was better used - it mostly was underused and had only a handful exclusives that used some of its extra capabilities like the hardware scaling. It also had some drawbacks like a slow single speed drive and very lousy FMV quality.  It was also very expensive. Which might explain why it never got popular.

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by agradeneu

[philipj]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

I disagree the Sega CD was better used - it mostly was underused and had only a handful exclusives that used some of its extra capabilities like the hardware scaling. It also had some drawbacks like a slow single speed drive and very lousy FMV quality.  It was also very expensive. Which might explain why it never got popular.

 

 

True that... Really FMV should've been more of an 80s thing with games like "Dragon's Lair" and such instead of coming out in the late 80s/early 90s like it did... It seem like some of those FMV companies were trying to make up for lost time and lost profits, but that's another story. "Starblade" for the Sega CD was rumored to have used both polygons and FMV on the to pull off 3D graphics; the game was made so well it was somewhat hard to tell which one was FMV or which one is real polygons. Personally I think the wireframe objects in the game are the real polys and the rest are some kind of FMV or some kind of streaming data from the CD... It's possible they could've used the Sega CD extra hardware to stream background polys while the Genesis render the wireframe stuff much like what "Silpheed" did; of course the background for that game was most likely all FMV with the Genesis rendering the playable 3D low-poly 3D spaceship objects in real-time including the bosses (except the final boss and one other boss).

 

 

 

[agradeneu]

3 hours ago, philipj said:

 

True that... Really FMV should've been more of an 80s thing with games like "Dragon's Lair" and such instead of coming out in the late 80s/early 90s like it did... It seem like some of those FMV companies were trying to make up for lost time and lost profits, but that's another story. "Starblade" for the Sega CD was rumored to have used both polygons and FMV on the to pull off 3D graphics; the game was made so well it was somewhat hard to tell which one was FMV or which one is real polygons. Personally I think the wireframe objects in the game are the real polys and the rest are some kind of FMV or some kind of streaming data from the CD... It's possible they could've used the Sega CD extra hardware to stream background polys while the Genesis render the wireframe stuff much like what "Silpheed" did; of course the background for that game was most likely all FMV with the Genesis rendering the playable 3D low-poly 3D spaceship objects in real-time including the bosses (except the final boss and one other boss).

 

 

 

Looks impressive! The backgrounds are definitely prendered. But if you can shoot polygon objects (collisions), it means they are most likely real time rendered. Not a huge problem for a 12 Mhz Motorola CPU.

 

[philipj]

11 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Looks impressive! The backgrounds are definitely prendered. But if you can shoot polygon objects (collisions), it means they are most likely real time rendered. Not a huge problem for a 12 Mhz Motorola CPU.

Yep... Same speed as the 68K on the Jag... I could've given too much thought on Namco pulled off the graphics on the Sega CD... with the screen resolution being smaller than the average FMV on "Starblade", it's quite possible that uncompressed sprites/stamps are being streamed directly to the Genesis video chip. The Sega CD has 700KB of memory set aside for storing CD data, which is a very considerable amount of memory to work with if used in the right way; Sega originally was going to use 1MB of memory, but instead ran with the 700KB to cut cost. The Sega CD seems like a great little well rounded system to study, draw inspiration, and pull ideas from without all of the bugs that the Jaguar has, but can use (learned concept) in similar fashion.

[agradeneu]

28 minutes ago, philipj said:

Yep... Same speed as the 68K on the Jag... I could've given too much thought on Namco pulled off the graphics on the Sega CD... with the screen resolution being smaller than the average FMV on "Starblade", it's quite possible that uncompressed sprites/stamps are being streamed directly to the Genesis video chip. The Sega CD has 700KB of memory set aside for storing CD data, which is a very considerable amount of memory to work with if used in the right way; Sega originally was going to use 1MB of memory, but instead ran with the 700KB to cut cost. The Sega CD seems like a great little well rounded system to study, draw inspiration, and pull ideas from without all of the bugs that the Jaguar has, but can use (learned concept) in similar fashion.

I don't think its about "secret programming tricks" not known to Jag coders yet.  

 

The game is  a nice example of how production values, great artwork and design make an impressive gaming experience.

So even if you know how its done theoretically you still have practically 0% of the game done.

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by agradeneu

[captainblack]

18 hours ago, agradeneu said:

That makes more sense! However, I dont think the Sega CD belongs into that group. It was mostly about playing Genesis games with added CD soundtracks or FMV junk.

It was an unpopular Add On for a very popular console. For Sega, it was a failure.

On the other hand, Cybermorph and AvP felt a bit revolutionary for their time. I don't think I considered the Jaguar as just an evolutionary step compared to the 16 bit systems.

 

I disagree the Sega CD was better used - it mostly was underused and had only a handful exclusives that used some of its extra capabilities like the hardware scaling. It also had some drawbacks like a slow single speed drive and very lousy FMV quality.  It was also very expensive. Which might explain why it never got popular.

 

In a sense SCD doesnt really belong with them, but in an ironic twist all the resources it got simply because it was a Sega console gives us the best glimpse at what it might have looked like if the Jag had the chance to be the cool kid and make some nice ports from SNK, Konami, etc. 

 

SCD could be considered a failure but I suspect Sega's MO was to use it as a tool to drive Genesis sales. I also think its perception gets colored by the 32X which was a flop on a much more colossal scale.

[agradeneu]

22 minutes ago, captainblack said:

In a sense SCD doesnt really belong with them, but in an ironic twist all the resources it got simply because it was a Sega console gives us the best glimpse at what it might have looked like if the Jag had the chance to be the cool kid and make some nice ports from SNK, Konami, etc. 

 

SCD could be considered a failure but I suspect Sega's MO was to use it as a tool to drive Genesis sales. I also think its perception gets colored by the 32X which was a flop on a much more colossal scale.

Eclipse (Iron Soldier) worked on an impressive Starblade rail shooter as their first Jaguar project. But to their frustration Atari rejected it and they had to wait another 10-12 months before Atari finally figured it out and offered them the concept of Iron Soldier.

Marc Rosocha said that their game could have been a launch title and a much more impressive showcase for the system than Cybermorph or .....Trevor Mcfur...cough cough..... But Atari was too shortsighted to realize that.

Edited June 22, 2021 by agradeneu

[sirlynxalot]

 

Here's another youtube video which features a lot of comparisons between the jaguar and N64.  It also features suggestions for N64 games that should be ported to Jag!

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by sirlynxalot

[sirlynxalot]

Just adding another video comparison since its on topic.  According to this reviewer the Jaguar seems to win in the "how cool the plastic shell of the console looks" department.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by sirlynxalot

[Clint Thompson]

8 hours ago, philipj said:

Yep... Same speed as the 68K on the Jag...

...but the Jag's GPU is an absolute monster compared to the Genesis, even with the bugs. As it should be though, it's a 3-year gap just like the Jag is to the N64.

[philipj]

On 6/22/2021 at 8:23 PM, Clint Thompson said:

...but the Jag's GPU is an absolute monster compared to the Genesis, even with the bugs. As it should be though, it's a 3-year gap just like the Jag is to the N64.

Yea but wouldn't the Motorola and DSP have better access to main ram...? I guess the GPU would have it as well, just can't make jumps from internal cache to main ram... If that's the case, then yea the GPU is probably the only chip I need to work with-with main ram being the slower memory to use in comparison to the GPU internal memory. I never really agreed with the notion of just cutting the 68K off completely for the other processor, but that's another issue entirely. That's one of the reasons I choose to learn QB64 so I can just focus on making games without the hardware restrictions and worry about that other stuff later...