philipj Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 On 6/22/2021 at 12:44 PM, agradeneu said: I don't think its about "secret programming tricks" not known to Jag coders yet. The game is a nice example of how production values, great artwork and design make an impressive gaming experience. So even if you know how its done theoretically you still have practically 0% of the game done. Yea that's true... Still I'd like to know how some things are done for future use... Was just looking at "Virtua Racing" was done on the "Sega Genesis" and it appears that both VR and "Starblade" shoot sprite pixels to the Geny graphics chip to be displayed very quickly... If there's a way to get the Jag to do fast 3D that's very natural to what the system was originally designed to do, then yes I'll always keep an open mind to those things. I consider it a little fun to brainstorm those things no matter how crazy the idea, but you're absolutely right I should just focus on game making instead of all of this other stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 2 hours ago, philipj said: Yea but wouldn't the Motorola and DSP have better access to main ram...? I guess the GPU would have it as well, just can't make jumps from internal cache to main ram... If that's the case, then yea the GPU is probably the only chip I need to work with-with main ram being the slower memory to use in comparison to the GPU internal memory. I never really agreed with the notion of just cutting the 68K off completely for the other processor, but that's another issue entirely. That's one of the reasons I choose to learn QB64 so I can just focus on making games without the hardware restrictions and worry about that other stuff later... *yawn* 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidGameR186496 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) On 21 de junio de 2021 at 10:11 PM, philipj said: True that... Really FMV should've been more of an 80s thing with games like "Dragon's Lair" and such instead of coming out in the late 80s/early 90s like it did... It seem like some of those FMV companies were trying to make up for lost time and lost profits, but that's another story. "Starblade" for the Sega CD was rumored to have used both polygons and FMV on the to pull off 3D graphics; the game was made so well it was somewhat hard to tell which one was FMV or which one is real polygons. Personally I think the wireframe objects in the game are the real polys and the rest are some kind of FMV or some kind of streaming data from the CD... It's possible they could've used the Sega CD extra hardware to stream background polys while the Genesis render the wireframe stuff much like what "Silpheed" did; of course the background for that game was most likely all FMV with the Genesis rendering the playable 3D low-poly 3D spaceship objects in real-time including the bosses (except the final boss and one other boss). Fun fact: Despite the Sega CD version of Starblade crediting Namco in the title screen, it was not known until years later when a former employee revealed at Twitter (UMMO, whose account no longer exists, sadly) that the port was developed by Technosoft, best remembered for Thunder Force. Edited June 25, 2021 by KidGameR186496 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidGameR186496 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 On 22 de junio de 2021 at 1:59 PM, agradeneu said: Eclipse (Iron Soldier) worked on an impressive Starblade rail shooter as their first Jaguar project. But to their frustration Atari rejected it and they had to wait another 10-12 months before Atari finally figured it out and offered them the concept of Iron Soldier. Marc Rosocha said that their game could have been a launch title and a much more impressive showcase for the system than Cybermorph or .....Trevor Mcfur...cough cough..... But Atari was too shortsighted to realize that. IMO, i don't think anything of that project survived but it would've been extremely to see how Eclipse's Starblade-inspired project for the Jaguar looked like. BTW, how this became a Starblade thread? Wasn't this supposed to be an excuse to throw shades at both the Jag and N64? XD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jgkspsx Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 On 6/22/2021 at 1:45 PM, captainblack said: SCD could be considered a failure but I suspect Sega's MO was to use it as a tool to drive Genesis sales. I also think its perception gets colored by the 32X which was a flop on a much more colossal scale. Units sold during original supported lifetime for systems popularly regarded as flops: Sony PlayStation Vita: ~16000000 Nintendo Wii U: 13560000 Sega Game Gear: ~11000000 Bandai Wonderswan: 3500000 Atari Lynx: ~3000000 Sega CD: 2250000 SNK Neo Geo: ~1000000 Sega 32X: 800000 Nintendo Virtual Boy: 770000 GCE Vectrex: ~600000 Tiger game.com: ~300000 Atari Jaguar: ~250000 SNK Neo Geo Pocket Color: ~150000 Just saying 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newtmonkey Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 I'm actually quite impressed by the numbers for the Wonderswan and Lynx! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jgkspsx Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 I was surprised too because I think of the Wonderswan and the NGPC as similar. It’s even more surprising because Bandai’s home console was the biggest flop ever - the Pippin only sold 42000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 15 minutes ago, jgkspsx said: I was surprised too because I think of the Wonderswan and the NGPC as similar. It’s even more surprising because Bandai’s home console was the biggest flop ever - the Pippin only sold 42000. The Wonderswan had the advantage of being designed by the guy who made the OG Gameboy. He had a bit more street cred in the gaming world than Apple (designers of the Pippin) did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jgkspsx Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 He designed the Virtual Boy too, though… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlynxalot Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Wonderswan also had the advantage of having all the Bandai franchises on it, like Gundam and countless popular mainstream animes. It seems almost unbelievable that the lynx sold 3M. I think people in the lynx forum were questioning that number in an old thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jgkspsx Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Anecdotally, I knew several people who had a Lynx, but only one person who had a Jag. I knew other people with a Sega CD, but I was the person with a 32X people knew. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 6 hours ago, jgkspsx said: Units sold during original supported lifetime for systems popularly regarded as flops: Sony PlayStation Vita: ~16000000 Nintendo Wii U: 13560000 Sega Game Gear: ~11000000 Bandai Wonderswan: 3500000 Atari Lynx: ~3000000 Sega CD: 2250000 SNK Neo Geo: ~1000000 Sega 32X: 800000 Nintendo Virtual Boy: 770000 GCE Vectrex: ~600000 Tiger game.com: ~300000 Atari Jaguar: ~250000 SNK Neo Geo Pocket Color: ~150000 Just saying The Jag would've been a big success for Atari had it sold Sega CD numbers. Alas, they only sold a tenth of that number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, Sauron said: The Jag would've been a big success for Atari had it sold Sega CD numbers. Alas, they only sold a tenth of that number. I've got a great idea for a new thread here, "What could've made the Jag a success?" 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, madman said: I've got a great idea for a new thread here, "What could've made the Jag a success?" Yes, great idea! Can't believe no one has ever discussed that before! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+jgkspsx Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Here are a couple old threads: Both suggest it wasn’t 3 million, but it was somewhere between 500k and 2M and there’s just no good data about it. It seems likely that the higher end of numbers is units sold to stores and a large number of those didn’t make it to customers. For instance, it sounds like Atari shipped 500k to stores in 1990: https://apnews.com/article/a1288531efff2f9504f70dbcd9f8b6cc On the other hand, it seems that the Jag sold fewer than 125k to customers in its actively supported lifetime… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 Wipeout N64: Wipeout J64: 1 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cubanismo Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Sauron said: Tiger game.com: ~300000 Alright, this is just embarrassing. I had to look this thing up on Wikipedia, and it still sold more units than the big cat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 23 minutes ago, CyranoJ said: Wipeout N64: Wipeout J64: Just a few more weeks and one or two moves across country and it will be there, all 200 levels. Also, if you are willing to wait another 2 to 3 weeks, the resolution can be bumped from 320*240 to 1920*1080 and the spreadsheets to show the numbers are there. 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlynxalot Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 I tried out wipeout 64 on an emulator recently and was very pleasantly surprised how good of a game it was. Imo it looked and played better than the PS1 version of Wipeout 1. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 On 5/22/2015 at 11:40 PM, atari2600land said: Never mind. Apparently it's a stupid question. Not stupid. But, I think we forget the context. As the N64 came out the Jaguar was retiring. Not really a fair comparison for many reasons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipj Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 3 hours ago, sirlynxalot said: I tried out wipeout 64 on an emulator recently and was very pleasantly surprised how good of a game it was. Imo it looked and played better than the PS1 version of Wipeout 1. I actually had the game in my N64 library before I sold it on ebay some years back... Was supper impressed with the game and the digital music coming from the sound chip... Kudos to the music composer. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 7 hours ago, Sauron said: The Jag would've been a big success for Atari had it sold Sega CD numbers. Alas, they only sold a tenth of that number. I think with games like AvP or Tempest 2000 released Atari deserved way better Jaguar sales. At least at the levels of 3DO or 32X. The Jaguar sold really bad for what it offered, even in it's best year 1994. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyprian Posted June 26, 2021 Share Posted June 26, 2021 (edited) On 6/24/2021 at 7:20 PM, philipj said: Yea but wouldn't the Motorola and DSP have better access to main ram...? I guess the GPU would have it as well, just can't make jumps from internal cache to main ram... If that's the case, then yea the GPU is probably the only chip I need to work with-with main ram being the slower memory to use in comparison to the GPU internal memory. I never really agreed with the notion of just cutting the 68K off completely for the other processor, but that's another issue entirely. That's one of the reasons I choose to learn QB64 so I can just focus on making games without the hardware restrictions and worry about that other stuff later... GPU has 32bit access to the main ram and in case of DSP and 68k it is 16bit. GPU: "Main code ram execution can run almost as fast as in the local or not depending on the bus activity. In its worse case it is by far faster then the 68k." Regarding Jumps from to the main ram, GPU can do them but there are some restrictions like proper alignment for the destination. Edited June 27, 2021 by Cyprian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digdugnate Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 On 6/25/2021 at 6:03 PM, jgkspsx said: Anecdotally, I knew several people who had a Lynx, but only one person who had a Jag. I knew other people with a Sega CD, but I was the person with a 32X people knew. this is funny to me, hehe. I was the only person I knew with a Jag and I only knew only one other kid that had a Lynx way back when. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFG 9000 Posted June 27, 2021 Share Posted June 27, 2021 On that note, I only got a Lynx and Jaguar because nobody else had them. I wanted an NES, Gameboy, and SNES like all my friends. And my parents did not want me to have those specifically because they thought I just wanted to be like everyone else. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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