Best Apple II model for Gaming

[Osgeld]

I would also hone in on the Apple IIe. The //c is too limited due to the lack of expansion slots and can get a bit tricky to get up and running with ADTPro without cassette ports.

 

you dont want to use a cassette port on a apple IIC (or on any apple II with a super serial card) jeez god why when you have a 115.2k baud serial port and for the games...apple game server, and since its cmos you can use a USB adapter, the only tricky part is getting the cable which cost like nothing to make and just a little more to buy

Edited September 10, 2015 by Osgeld

[Great Hierophant]

That's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that it's way OT...

 

Question wasn't which is the best apple ii, it was which is the best for gaming, and pretty sure you don't need any of all that to enjoy the games library...

 

Every item on that list helps in some way or another to get the maximum out of your games.

 

M - 64KB Memory Expansion

This required for any game that uses double high resolution graphics, even Prince of Persia uses double high resolution graphics.

1 - Super Serial Card (for ADTPro)

This is the best way to transfer files and disk images from your modern computer to your Apple II is with ADTPro, SSCs are very common and reasonably priced and much faster than using the cassette interface for transfers.

2 - Super Serial Card (for Printer or Modem)

Some games support these peripherals, (print out Wasteland character stats, play Battle Chess over modem) but this is not high on the priorities.

3 - Mockingboard #2

Many cards cannot go into slot 3, but this one can, see below. A bit of a luxury to be sure.

4 - Mockingboard #1

At least 30 games support this sound card, and Ultima 5 can make use of a second card. Pricey but worth it.

5 - Mouse Card

Some games support a mouse like Balance of Power, these are fairly common. Both mouse and mockingboard prefer slot 4.

6 - Disk II or DuoDisk Controller

Floppy drives are a must for an Apple II, they are the basic way to play any game unless you want to type games into BASIC.

7 - CFFA 3000

Functions as a Pro DOS hard drive, you can fit tons of games on a 32MB partition. Instant loading times compared to floppies, can emulate many floppies too.

If you don't care about 3, 4 or 7, you get the rest with a //c built-in.

As far as word processors go, do any of them for the Apple II support automatic footnote and endnote placement? I know WordPerfect 4.2 for DOS did.

[Keatah]

In making your hardware choice a simple selection, the best overall machine for Apple II gaming is the //e Platinum. I particularly like this machine because of reduced parts count. It has a more reliable main memory, and there is 1 ROM chip compared to 2 in a standard //e. Reliability is the winning feature. And you lose nothing in comparison to the earlier //e models.

 

In addition to the console, you need the following:

 

1- 64K/80-column upgrade card. This gives you double-hires graphics + 64K ram expansion + 80 columns text.

2- 2x 5.25" disk drives. 1 will work, 2 will allow you to copy and organize disks so much better.

3- 5.25" floppy disk interface card. Required, naturally.

4- Some sort of monitor. A composite input one like the 1084S from Commodore is a good one. Apple also made several. You can go with an old TV + RF modulator.. You just need a display device, obviously. Bad comes to worse, use your LCD TV.

5- 2-axis 2-button joystick and a set of paddles. Though you can do keyboard-only for many games.

6- Some blank 5.25" SS/DD disks.

7- You will need to settle on a method for transferring disk images to and from your modern-day PC <-> Apple //e. I settled on the Super Serial Card + ADTPRO + serial cable method mainly because it's old-school, and very cost effective. It's fast and it just works.

 

And there you are! That is the required hardware to get into gaming. Nothing extraneous, nothing missing. Solid!

 

To spiff up your experience I'll PM you a set of disks and utilities to make life easier. I suggest getting this software to help you work with everything.

 

PC side of things:

1- Ciderpress to help you explore, manage, and create disk images. http://a2ciderpress.com/

2- AppleWin Emulator versions 1.25.0.4 & 1.26.0.0, as of today. Perfect for trying out new games quickly and doing other impromptu experiments. https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin

3- ADTPRO software for disk transferring if you're going that route. http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/

 

Apple side of things:

Official DOS 3.3 System Master (1983), contains Integer Basic, and DOS 3.3, and gives you the ability to make a self-booting Standard DOS 3.3 disk.

 

Copy II Plus 5.5 and 9.1, these give you all the tools a beginner would need for working with and managing files on the Apple side of things. Covers DOS 3.2, 3.3, and all versions of ProDOS.

 

Official ProDOS disks

ProDos 1.1.1. basic and startup disk

ProDos 1.1.1. user's disk

ProDos 8 v.2.0.3 system disk 4.0

ProDos 8 v2.0.3. basic v1.5

 

You can get disk images from ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/

Just search through the site_index.txt if you want something specific.

 

Let me know what system you do settle upon and I'll put together a documentation packet too.

 

 

 

 

[Keatah]

We should stop here. The II, II+, 1st run old //e, standard //e, enhanced //e, //c+, and IIgs can all be eliminated.

 

Platinum //e is the winner with the standard //c as a second choice. The differences when it comes to games are minimal or non-existent. It's a matter of style. The only technical difference of significance is the expansion slots. Do you want to add more niche capabilities later? Then the slots are for you. If it's just games and the usual productivity stuff, then the //c will work. Choosing one machine over the other won't impact your final overall gaming experience.

[The Usotsuki]

For the record AppleWorks at least 1.x will work just fine on an unenhanced //e if you have enough RAM. You'll just have an inverted A where the open apple goes in the bottom right corner.

[Tempest]

 

7 - CFFA 3000

Functions as a Pro DOS hard drive, you can fit tons of games on a 32MB partition. Instant loading times compared to floppies, can emulate many floppies too.

 

Off topic a bit, but I'm curious now. I have a spare Apple SCSI card that was going to put in my IIe (It's my backup for the one in the IIgs). Will this act pretty much the same way as a CFFA 3000?

[Great Hierophant]

 

Off topic a bit, but I'm curious now. I have a spare Apple SCSI card that was going to put in my IIe (It's my backup for the one in the IIgs). Will this act pretty much the same way as a CFFA 3000?

 

I assume that an Apple II SCSI card will allow ProDOS to format and use the drive attached to it. But that is all it can do compared to the CFFA 3000. You cannot use it as a basic floppy emulator, you cannot attach USB sticks or CF cards with a SCSI-to-CF adapter (not sure if there are SCSI to USB adapters that support USB flash storage). CFFA 3000 can allow for multiple 32MB partitions, but if I read the reference manual correctly, you will lose the ability to plug and play into your modern PC because the partitioning is not compatible.

 

Also, you can ditch one of the Super Serial Cards in favor of a Uthernet II card, it should make those transfers with ADTPro go lightning fast!

[Tempest]

 

I assume that an Apple II SCSI card will allow ProDOS to format and use the drive attached to it.

 

Yes it will. I think you can have two 32MB partitions with it. I'm more curious as to how I'd access the images on it without using the CFFA 3000 built-in software.

[Keatah]

You wouldn't. There is no provision that I know in the SCSI card to simulate or virtualize disk images. Running .DSK and .PO images directly pretty much requires some form of hardware to interpret and present the image as the Apple's bus and DOS/ProDOS would expect.

 

I don't know of any software only layer (yet) that would do that without additional hardware. Or at least a card with firmware and a rudimentary processor. Seeing we have the CFFA 3000 already I'm not sure there's incentive to develop a software only solution to that problem.

 

But I would be more than happy to be proven wrong!

 

I could see the .dsk image being "ripped" from the scsi drive and virtualized to be run on a RamWorks card. That's doable.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Keatah

[Keatah]

Apparently a while back Antoine and Oliver thought it possible to do exactly what you ask, but there was no demand for it and the project never really got started. Discussion here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/0tiV9bjzhhQ

 

Then there is DOS.Master, indirectly you can load the contents of a DOS 3.3 disk into a virtualized volume mountable and runnable from pro-dos. There are limits in that the disk must be readable and runnable using standard DOS 3.3 RWTS, this would still eliminate some de-protected stuff that uses custom dos..

 

Apple Game Server project got half-way there, but decided to go in a different direction.

 

Still not what you're looking for, to run a .DSK or .PO directly on the console. I know.

[Osgeld]

Temptest's awnser is correct you can take an apple II scsi card and run 2 32 meg partitions on it, nothing more, a lot of software will run from it, a lot wont

 

welcome to 8 bit computing, which as self professed as you are K I am surprised you are not vested in 8 bit apple mass storage 101 as its part of the holy grail faq from 1992

 

for those not googling every tidbit of nerd data for the last 2 decades i understand, those are protesting to be gods at all electronic professions like some people who like to talk out of their ass without reading a 25+ year old FAQ, I dont, this was common knowledge back in the 90's

Edited September 12, 2015 by Osgeld

[Keatah]

You can't even understand the problem. How do you expect to give the correct answer? Duhh..

 

He wants to run .DSK images from the SCSI card/disk. He wants to access (and run) the contents of a .DSK image directly from one of those partitions.

 

That's why the internet is a full of mis-information, you have every damned Tom, Dick, and Harry mixing in their own ignorance with things they read. Then regurgitating it.

 

Now run along and come back with a solution aside from CFFA3000 that will do as Tempest asks.

[Tempest]

welcome to 8 bit computing, which as self professed as you are K I am surprised you are not vested in 8 bit apple mass storage 101 as its part of the holy grail faq from 1992

 

for those not googling every tidbit of nerd data for the last 2 decades i understand, those are protesting to be gods at all electronic professions like some people who like to talk out of their ass without reading a 25+ year old FAQ, I dont, this was common knowledge back in the 90's

 

I've only ever used a hard drive on the IIGS. They're not particularly useful on the IIe, but I wanted to try it just because. No one can be an expert about all things. It was just a simple question. No need to be all sanctimonious about it.

 

@Keatah: Alex made a hard drive image of a bunch of games that will run out of ProDOS (I assume for the CFFA 3000). Is that something that I could use with the SCSI card or will I run into the same problem you were describing?

[Keatah]

If it's an actual .PO image, you'll still need to get the contents of that image put on the drive natively. All the files taken out, then transfered and put onto the hard drive. You just can't put an image on it and go. There's nothing in the SCSI card (hardware or firmware) to interpret .PO files. That's for emulators.

 

Now. If you stay within the GS environment there is Mount It, from the same guy I mentioned earlier. It will mount images sized as big as your system's memory http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/products/apple2gs/mountit.html

I know you wanted to do this on the //e. It is what it is.

[Iamgroot]

If it's an actual .PO image, you'll still need to get the contents of that image put on the drive natively. All the files taken out, then transfered and put onto the hard drive. You just can't put an image on it and go. There's nothing in the SCSI card (hardware or firmware) to interpret .PO files. That's for emulators.

 

Now. If you stay within the GS environment there is Mount It, from the same guy I mentioned earlier. It will mount images sized as big as your system's memory http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/products/apple2gs/mountit.html

I know you wanted to do this on the //e. It is what it is.

 

 

There is an applesoft program that is called "Deimage" somewhere in Asimov that allows you to do just that. It takes a disk image saved on a Prodos formatted hard drive, .po or .dsk, and deimages it to a real disk or a Ram disk of the same size. Diskmaker8, which is a system file, will also do that and a couple of others I can't think of right now.

 

But point is, If an applesoft program can be written to deimage a disk image, then it wouldn't take much more programming to make a disk image that is saved on a hard drive allowed to be mounted and cataloged.

 

Any real slot is still driven by a software or firmware driver. All that is needed is a driver that has the filename of a disk image passed to it and the driver can treat that file as a virtual slot. So anything can be done with that virtual slot. CATALOG, LOAD, SAVE, etc.

 

The slot assignments are part of the Prodos global page @$BF10.BF2F where BF10.BF1F is drive one and BF20.BF2F are drive 2. Each 2 byte designation points to a driver, and some drivers are in firmware such as SCSI cards, and some drivers are in memory such as the slot 3 RAM driver.

 

With that knowledge, a driver can be written to read a disk image file and treat that file as if it were a virtual disk. Virtual volumes are nothing new. Pascal has the ability to create a virtual volume on a Prodos formatted disk. So does PC Transporter.

 

A working knowledge of how files are stored on Prodos disks is also a must. A block editor can help in those respects. Block Warden by Glen Brendon is one of the better ones out there.

 

Just don't ask me to write one for you Maybe this winter I will have more time.

[MarkO]

 

I've only ever used a hard drive on the IIGS. They're not particularly useful on the IIe, but I wanted to try it just because. No one can be an expert about all things. It was just a simple question. No need to be all sanctimonious about it.

 

 

Hard Drives ( or the CFFA as a Hard Drive ) is very useful on the ][e. Having One Disk instead of many makes it much Faster to switch and boot an application.. Most ProDOS apps will work on a Hard Drive, and using Glen Bredon's DOS.MASTER many DOS 3.3 Disks can be placed on a Hard Drive too..

 

 

MarkO

[Osgeld]

yes even with my //c what will play nice with the ADT pro virtual serial disk is pretty darn nice

(fakes a hard drive from a adt computer, or my little host box and a sd card, problem is it uses a software driver which programs are more than happy to overwrite in ram lol)

 

having real mass storage and to a much lesser degree mockingboard would be my reason to choose a //e over a //c, but CFFA cards are not exactly mass produced, nor (for me at least) cheap.

 

mass storage for me is a big enough deal that I am seriously considering a //e card for my mac LC2 and just selling the //c, but I also love to tinker writing apple II software, as far as gaming goes this is all a moot point. Big games are easy to keep floppies on hand and the single file games all happen over apple game server, which is a metric ton of 80's arcade type games

[Tempest]

That DOS.MASTER thing may be the way to go. I'll have to look into it. Thanks.

[Keatah]

It's fun to experiment and see what can be done. Sometimes it works. And sometimes it ends up being an itinerary full of gymnastics which morphs into a rabbit hole.

 

Sometimes I just go with the simplest most time-honored solution. I'll just grab a box of disks and make them one by one via ADT - at 30 seconds a disk it isn't a chore. Other times I'll use CFFA. But mostly when I'm going through a whole bunch of .DSK and .PO images I just do it on AppleWin.