Is it possible to program a game for the emulator?

[Buffki]

First of all I would like to be honest with all of you and state that I have never owned an Atari product (hence why I am straying from the introduction). I am strictly focused on trying to use all this public domain good stuff. I was reading up on homebrew and what caught my eye about this system is that it supposedly has a dedicated fanbase. Programming a game can take years right? The emulator just opens such a wide audience and I intend my game to be free (especially since it will be my first game, I might charge when I move on to the Chip/mobile platforms)

 

My theory is that I need good practice before the Chip 9$ computer comes out. The Jaguar being public domain means that I would own any code I make right (I would probably make the game free hence the emulator question so everyone can play).

 

The chip computer is considerably more powerful than this system (not to be a jerk it is recent). So porting a game from the Jaguar emulator to the chip would not be to difficult right?

 

I was planning to make a low polygon 3D title. Possibly an adventure game or RPG. With a system this open it would be good practice right? Everything I have been reading has been 2D so 3D is much harder right but would be good practice for the Chip. If I make a good enough free game than I will make a lot of money off a sequal. I am just concerned about IP. Would Hasbro own the rights to a homebrew product?

 

Also since I am programming for Emulator is there anything special to make like a Jaguar CD iso vs a ROM. I would like to not be constrained by 6mb.

 

http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/tutorials/lets-build-a-3d-graphics-engine-points-vectors-and-basic-concepts--gamedev-8143

These are good tutorials right? Would 3D on the Jaguar be a no go? Are there any specific 3D programming tutorials? (I know 3D is supposedly more time consuming). Would you all just suggest me sticking to PC development. I just thought that restricting myself to older hardware would help me manage resources better for something like the Chip and maybe Mobile.

 

Also is everything about the Jaguar Public domain? Like you could put a character playing one in an RPG and not get sued?

Edit: I have read Raptor Basic and that stuff before. Supposedly the include and jagview folders are alls that I need? How exactly do I compile a Jag CD iso to run on an emulator? (if they are ISO, Idk because I have not downloaded a game).

 

I hope you all do not mind me asking these noob questions. I feel like I am making you all do all the work. >_> sorry about that.

 

Also if my followup game for the chip is any good I should have the money I need to fund a more serious project (not my project mind you because supposedly it has been around for a while) involving Biology and eliminating the need pregnancy for women but I digress,

Edited August 16, 2015 by Buffki

[Christos]

 

The chip computer is considerably more powerful than this system (not to be a jerk it is recent). So porting a game from the Jaguar emulator to the chip would not be to difficult right?

 

http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/tutorials/lets-build-a-3d-graphics-engine-points-vectors-and-basic-concepts--gamedev-8143

These are good tutorials right? Would 3D on the Jaguar be a no go? Are there any specific 3D programming tutorials? (I know 3D is supposedly more time consuming). Would you all just suggest me sticking to PC development. I just thought that restricting myself to older hardware would help me manage resources better for something like the Chip and maybe Mobile.

 

That's the most bizzare development plan I've ever seen, and I've seen quite a few of them! The only way this will work is if you can port the emulator to Chip which from what I read might not be fast enough to run the emulator in full framerate.

 

From your post I get that you have very limited, if any, programming experience so you might not realise how much work is porting a game from one system to another, especially when they share virtually no similarities apart from being computing devices. If you want to program for Chip, try and learn how to program for Chip, if you want to code for the jaguar, go ahead and code for the jaguar.

 

On your last question about 3d, creating a new 3d engine for a new game on a modern system is a waste of effort. If I were you, I'd contact the Chip developers and ask them what 3d engine is, or is planned to be, available for the system (Quake engine or similar would be a good guess) and I'd try to learn that.

[Buffki]

 

That's the most bizzare development plan I've ever seen, and I've seen quite a few of them! The only way this will work is if you can port the emulator to Chip which from what I read might not be fast enough to run the emulator in full framerate.

 

From your post I get that you have very limited, if any, programming experience so you might not realise how much work is porting a game from one system to another, especially when they share virtually no similarities apart from being computing devices. If you want to program for Chip, try and learn how to program for Chip, if you want to code for the jaguar, go ahead and code for the jaguar.

 

On your last question about 3d, creating a new 3d engine for a new game on a modern system is a waste of effort. If I were you, I'd contact the Chip developers and ask them what 3d engine is, or is planned to be, available for the system (Quake engine or similar would be a good guess) and I'd try to learn that.

Okay, I would like to use the Jaguar because Chip is quite a few months away. Developing for the Atari Jaguar would be insanely difficult for me. This means that if I do make a game or fail to make a game then when I shift to the chip things will be much easier for me and encouraging

I read on sites like Head2Head how PS3 multiplats were almost always inferior early on because they were ported from the 360 (a much easier system to develop for which is still hard)

It is the year 2222, you begin to see images. You are told that your limbs were removed and your body and your head placed in a chamber to remotely control a robot Your goal is to beat the AI (which programs other AI) in the Galactic Tic Tac Toe Tournament. First you must get past your qualifying match.

This is the scenario. I constructed a demo in C++ that I saved. I then tried to add many lines to replicate choices which failed. I should probably seek help on Gamedev.net regarding this.

I would like to build a 3D engine on the Jaguar. That way when I port it over to other systems it will be enhanced. Porting from the jaguar is much easier than porting to the Jaguar. Supposedly was looking up on theoretical polygon count. And on Wiki it says the Jaguar can do 150,000 polygons. The ps1 and Saturn can do 90,000 and the Jaguar 10,000

For a developer like me if I can even get started I will probably be capped to 2000 polygon's or less (considering that these are supposed to be maximums and the real number might be half).

Other than Tic Tac Toe Robot Tournament (which I am still working on in C++) remake for Jaguar in 3D. I can show my work but it is a mess. I know it sounds a lot of fun but I just can not make the idea work. I would like to make a talking simulator.

Here is my lazy work so far haha :

I am asking if I could develop for the emulator for Jaguar users and PC. Then port to smart phone and/or Chip.

I first need to make a game though. I understand the frustration of having me be walked through this like a child when I am 22. I am trying to read all the files and downloaded the manual you all provided for the SDK. I am just curious is Basic+ more for 2D and RISC for 3D.

Is Top Down easier than First person. Supposedly doing First person and Third person take a lot of skill from what I hear to avoid camera angle issues (mainly Third person)

I have many projects that I would like to work on but lack the basic skills. I posted this because I hope that I am not the only idiot thinking of this.

Could Jaguar handle the Quake engine (and would I be better off porting a game made using that)? I was looking at Quake's polycount and it seems high).

With my game and skills I am aiming for 14-30 polygon models. I understand programing is most of the time spent in development.

Basically if I do program a 3D game for the Jaguar will you all burn roms/isos of it to test it? It probably will take me two years given the typical dev cycle is 1 year. Maybe more. An appealing aspect is also the dedicated base that I can use to help myself learn. Game code is typically 40-100,000 lines right?

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/4054-average-code-length/

If the code of an average 2D game is under 10,000.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Buffki

[Zerosquare]

I think he's crazy enough to be a Jaguar developer.

[GroovyBee]

A jaguar 3D engine will be nothing like a Chip 3D engine. On the jag, you'll be design it from scratch using 3D principles (with fixed point numbers) and make good use of Tom (GPU) and the blitter. On Chip you'll most likely be using OpenGL(ES) with floating point and that library will do the heavy lifting for you. To get a good polygon count on the jag you'll need to resort to 68K/GPU assembler for the rendering engine. On chip, it'll all be done in C/C++ but you'll probably use some OpenCL to write your shader(s). Then you have to take into account the massive RAM and CPU/GPU processing speed differences between the machines .

[Buffki]

Also you guys will demo my rom or CD (I will try to keep filesize under 6mb for those without the CD thing) if I make some right? ( I intend on the full game for Jaguar/Jaguar emulator being free). I will try not to bug you all with constant details and will only make a development topic if I have made reasonable progress and have obtained some screenshots.

I do not want to waste money atm.

I might post the source code to the game as well if it is of any quality.

I think he's crazy enough to be a Jaguar developer.

Thanks haha, even if you are joking. edit: just lost all the progress on my quotes lol.

I actually consider myself to be pretty logical though and following the rational normal development style.

Don't most professional dev kits come out with lowered specs and get raised. This is like a supersized version of that imo that will prepare me for the mobile/SOC computer market.

I have looked at screenshots of many of the games listed as homebrew. They look pretty nice and I am surprised no company has found interest in funding a remake of the system using cheap part/part upgrades (motorolla CPU has a later variant) and it would probably be a substantial upgrade and be cheaper than the Jaguar goes for on sites (they probably would have to use a DVD/CD reader though since rom is expensive right)?

A jaguar 3D engine will be nothing like a Chip 3D engine. On the jag, you'll be design it from scratch using 3D principles (with fixed point numbers) and make good use of Tom (GPU) and the blitter. On Chip you'll most likely be using OpenGL(ES) with floating point and that library will do the heavy lifting for you. To get a good polygon count on the jag you'll need to resort to 68K/GPU assembler for the rendering engine. On chip, it'll all be done in C/C++ but you'll probably use some OpenCL to write your shader(s). Then you have to take into account the massive RAM and CPU/GPU processing speed differences between the machines .

The theory (I basically stole the implied theory from Head2Head/lense of truth in that develop for hard systems first then port to the easy ones which was concluded in the results)is that if I am good at the Jaguar I will be excellent at the "easy stuff" (mobile/SOC). If I start out with OpenGL and Chip than if I ever move to another architecture I will feel pampered. The limiting of the resources in the Jaguar is intense and should provide an excellent challenge.

I mean if I port a game from the Jaguar to the Chip I could probably add all sorts of textures, AA, etc. If I can even build a game for the Jaguar than I will probably build a ground up game for the Chip (probably something involving learning given the price of the system and how available it is). Then I can try porting that game to the Jaguar which will be very intense.

 

Although I suppose maybe I should make a WW2 FPS using Quake's (basically a Wolfeinstein clone lol) engine if that can be ported to the Jaguar. Since my game is free I should avoid getting sued right?

 

I do not intend on maxing out the Jaguar. I have seen 30polygon models from google. I really just want to have a stable frame rate. Stability is the main concern and that is why I am trying to keep as low poly as possible. Obviously professionals who poured their heart and soul into developing for the system are going to produce better 3D (although no excuses I guess).

 

If I can not produce results than there is no use bothering you all with chit-chat haha. So again I will try to avoid posting until I have something.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Buffki

[sh3-rg]

Although I suppose maybe I should make a WW2 FPS using Quake's (basically a Wolfeinstein clone lol) engine if that can be ported to the Jaguar. Since my game is free I should avoid getting sued right?

Excellent idea. Ignore groovybee, he might have made games for more systems than you've even heard of, but he knows nothing of WW2 or FPS. IIRC, everything related to WW2 is automatically CC, as it was a global conflict, so you should be fine. I should point out that IANAL and TINLA.

 

I do not intend on maxing out the Jaguar. I have seen 30polygon models from google. I really just want to have a stable frame rate. Stability is the main concern and that is why I am trying to keep as low poly as possible. Obviously professionals who poured their heart and soul into developing for the system are going to produce better 3D (although no excuses I guess).

Stable frame rates won't be an issue, no point being a neigh-sayer, the Jaguar is a work horse.

 

Professionals who poured their heart and soul into tring to max out the Jaguar simply didn't know any better, they were just very professional and doing what came naturally. Their body of work speaks for itself.

 

If I can not produce results than there is no use bothering you all with chit-chat haha. So again I will try to avoid posting until I have something.

No please continue, can't you see how dead it is in here? The chit-chat haha is most welcome. This isn't like installing linux or rocket surgery, it's just making games. Die, Allied schweinehund! Achtung! Schutzstaffel!

[+CyranoJ]

He should talk to Vladr, they sound like they have an awful lot in common.

[Buffki]

 

Excellent idea. Ignore groovybee, he might have made games for more systems than you've even heard of, but he knows nothing of WW2 or FPS. IIRC, everything related to WW2 is automatically CC, as it was a global conflict, so you should be fine. I should point out that IANAL and TINLA.

 

 

Stable frame rates won't be an issue, no point being a neigh-sayer, the Jaguar is a work horse.

 

Professionals who poured their heart and soul into tring to max out the Jaguar simply didn't know any better, they were just very professional and doing what came naturally. Their body of work speaks for itself.

 

 

No please continue, can't you see how dead it is in here? The chit-chat haha is most welcome. This isn't like installing linux or rocket surgery, it's just making games. Die, Allied schweinehund! Achtung! Schutzstaffel!

Cool and anything involving generic robots will not get me sued right? Also as long as I am not dirrectly using someone's IP, I can make a clone game as long as I make no money of the game right?

Oh and regarding the Jaguar emulator. The emulator uses just the motorolla components (GPUs, CPU) or does it also emulate the Jaguar's ram that is made in Japan?

I am pretty sure emulators just use computer ram right?

[sh3-rg]

Cool and anything involving generic robots will not get me sued right? Also as long as I am not dirrectly using someone's IP, I can make a clone game as long as I make no money of the game right?

Oh and regarding the Jaguar emulator. The emulator uses just the motorolla components (GPUs, CPU) or does it also emulate the Jaguar's ram that is made in Japan?

I am pretty sure emulators just use computer ram right?

 

Generic robots came out in the 50s - the copyrights have all expired.

 

You're free to clone, say, Super Mario 64 and call it Mega Barrio and you'd be fine. "64" isn't copyrightable as the Jaguar has 64-bits as well.

 

Emulating Japanese RAM has never been a simple task. Just using computer RAM has always been the safest method. Emulating Motorola GPUs is a much simpler task.

[+madman]

Best thread of 2015.

[+CyranoJ]

Emulating Japanese RAM has, as is said above, always been historically difficult.

 

The best analogue we have managed to come up with so far is depicted below.

 

As you can see, to store things using it you need to also emulate a block of wood, onto which you can save data (write once, read many - just like a CD)

 

[Otto1980]

i like Buffkis ideas

 

they are not as crazy they sound in the first moment

i also thought that a very early openGL version for the jag would be something awesome

having some very basic 3d standards to make simple 3d objects, shaded, maybe gouraud shaded.., and only "very maybe" a little simple textured

 

dont get me wrong.. just the ability to make an nice and simple 3d object for logos, menues, 2 objects e.g. in a 2d game or something..

just to have the option to polish a project a litte into "next gen" style

 

nice idea.. keep this dream alive

Edited August 25, 2015 by Otto1980

[+CyranoJ]

i also thought that a very early openGL version for the jag would be something awesome

 

Get coding then, make it happen.

 

 

just to have the option to polish a project a litte into "next gen" style

 

If only it was a 'next gen' console... instead of a 68000 and 2 crippled risc chips

Edited August 25, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Otto1980]

Get coding then??

no time due job currently..as usual

 

hehe.. "next gen" is not evolution or progress

its just a "new"

and the jag was also "new" someday

[+CyranoJ]

Get coding then??

no time due job currently..as usual

 

 

Other people have jobs and make things happen... bit of a lame excuse

[GroovyBee]

If only it was a 'next gen' console... instead of 3 crippled chips

Fixed that for ya!

[Sporadic]

Could my day start any better

[Otto1980]

Other people have jobs and make things happen... bit of a lame excuse

 

yes.. like me..

i make a lot of things happen... on of it .. this post

[+CyranoJ]

 

yes.. like me..

i make a lot of things happen... on of it .. this post

 

Stop messing up this thread by the really active Buffki guy who really, really looks like he might be the next Trip Hawkings or something by pretending your going to do stuff at some point

[ggn]

Where's a strong programmer when you need him, right?

[Buffki]

 

Generic robots came out in the 50s - the copyrights have all expired.

 

You're free to clone, say, Super Mario 64 and call it Mega Barrio and you'd be fine. "64" isn't copyrightable as the Jaguar has 64-bits as well.

 

Emulating Japanese RAM has never been a simple task. Just using computer RAM has always been the safest method. Emulating Motorola GPUs is a much simpler task.

Haha, I know RAM is similar but in speed. I am just saying does the emulator just emulate the main components of the system? Lets pretend the Japanese do not want you using any product with them or something because your grandpa was in the navy in WW2 (hypothetical). Does the emulator use the computer or does it emulate the Jaguar's ram? The Jaguar's ram is standard RAM right? It is not like GDDR3, 5.

Or would that person be better off developing a PC game where it would be safer?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Buffki

[Buffki]

 

Stop messing up this thread by the really active Buffki guy who really, really looks like he might be the next Trip Hawkings or something by pretending your going to do stuff at some point

Well, I had sod get in my eyes (know that is not an excuse). I took a break from learning to program because of that. The hardest part will probably be animating the polygons and building them right? Even simple polygon models can take days right? (not including textures).

 

You all think 3D platformer would be the best game for a beginner? Or does the genre matter much?

[Fletch]

Buffki,

 

Learning to program is quite commendable. However, learning programming on a 20 year old, no longer supported platform is probably not the right choice.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm.

 

-Pete

[+save2600]

Love the ambition here... see you in 20 years and several 2D puzzle games later.

 

Speaking of puzzle games... Tetrisphere *still* needs to be ported over. Should you wish to accept this challenge...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrisphere