Popeye Arcade 8-bit conversion

[Jetboot Jack]

Wow - awesome work on the graphics, I love the original and the NES version too - this is an awesome update.

 

But the gameplay feels broken - Popeye's punch distance has radically shortened - which feels poor - I agree with Tempest above..

 

TBH - I always loved the clever cheat of double width punch frames - kinda like Bruce Lee does...

[+darryl1970]

Finally got to try this. It's really really nice! One question though, I noticed that Popeye's punching sprite has been changed significantly. Now his arm no longer extends way out when he punches. Has the collision detection been changed as well? It seems like now you have to punch when the object is almost right next to you rather than a fair distance away.

The punch was a collision detection between the player and the background image (bottles), but it was very finicky. It had to be EXACT, or the player would die. It had something to do with which player it came into contact with.

 

Now it is handled in Code, and it much more consistent and reliable.

Edited October 30, 2015 by darryl1970

[+darryl1970]

Thank you.

 

There are two issues here. To address each separately:

1. I do agree that the use of double width players was clever. I do like the LOOK of the extended reach, but it was poorly sync'd. If you look closely, it was visible to catch the players not lined up properly.

 

I did actually redraw the frame for use as an extended player. I asked Playsoft if there was anyway to sync the players better, but that would be way more involved. The problem was the occasional hiccup.

 

2. I completely disagree with the game play feeling "broken." The collision detection was awful in the original Parker Brothers release when it came to punching the bottles. Popeye would often die by a bottle he SHOULD have punched. Using hardware collision would count the "punch" when the flesh colored player was hit. Dying would be detected by the other player being contacted. The aforementioned glitch in syncing the players would sometimes cause a wrongful death when punching consecutive bottles, because the "flesh" colored player wasn't making contact when it should have. This also made it virtually impossible to punch bottles quickly in two different directions.

 

Playsoft incorporated a software collision, which is way more accurate. He programmed it to compensate some for Popeye's reach. You can actually punch the bottles when the bottles are the distance the double-player would have extended. So, is it possible this is just a perception, because Popeye doesn't extend as far now? I have personally found a lot less "false" deaths.

 

On another note, the software collision would still work if Popeye used the extension frames. I do not know how difficult it would be to undo the lack of the double-width player.

 

I admit that I wish he could extend, but I would also want it without the issues I pointed out above. Of course these are just my opinions from studying the A8/5200 and comparing them to my arcade machine.

 

Given the information I provided, I would be interested in the popular consensus.

 

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope this didn't come across like I didn't appreciate it, just because I don't agree 100%. I am just in a rush and typing this before I have to go to my morning meeting at work.

 

 

Wow - awesome work on the graphics, I love the original and the NES version too - this is an awesome update.

 

But the gameplay feels broken - Popeye's punch distance has radically shortened - which feels poor - I agree with Tempest above..

 

TBH - I always loved the clever cheat of double width punch frames - kinda like Bruce Lee does...

 

[Jinroh]

That makes perfect sense. Just like with my Carrot Kingdom game on the VCS everything's a compromise. xD

 

Yeah would be nice if the extend can be added in later, but for now, I'm able to play pretty well with the shorter punch. Though now I'm gonna have to try and "punch" it at a longer distance. A few times I'll hit just a bit too late, and I'll die because I don't have the timing down quite perfect yet.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Jinroh

[Tempest]

The punch was a collision detection between the player and the background image (bottles), but it was very finicky. It had to be EXACT, or the player would die. It had something to do with which player it came into contact with.

 

Now it is handled in Code, and it much more consistent and reliable.

Oh I agree. I used to avoid punching if at all possible in the original because it was such a crap shoot as to whether or not it would work. I just wish you could still keep the 'extended arm' punching but use the new collision detection.

 

On a side note, did the bucket always regenerate after you died on the first level or did that get added in? It's been a while since I played the original.

[+darryl1970]

Oh I agree. I used to avoid punching if at all possible in the original because it was such a crap shoot as to whether or not it would work. I just wish you could still keep the 'extended arm' punching but use the new collision detection.

 

On a side note, did the bucket always regenerate after you died on the first level or did that get added in? It's been a while since I played the original.

We did not add anything. I know the bucket does regenerate on the arcade version, and I know the 5200 version does.

Your question made me wonder about the A8, so I just revisited that , and the original A8 version did too.

 

This version is based off of the 5200 port. I really wish it was based on the A8 version. The only difference I KNOW OF is the punching bag. On the A8 version, Popeye had to step off and punch, just like the arcade. On the 5200, they programmed it to leap if Popeye punches on the edge of the top right floor. I like having the control like the arcade, because sometimes I want to punch a heart or just punch for the heck of it, and I don't want to jump and hit the bag. ** Incidentally, I noticed that Popeye cannot grab the hearts by punching them in the arcade version!

 

I think updating the A8 graphics and then converting to the 5200 might actually be a pain. I know Playsoft wasn't looking to get overly involved in this, and he went way above and beyond! He would be the one that would know how easy it would be to bring back the extended player.

[Tempest]

We did not add anything. I know the bucket does regenerate on the arcade version, and I know the 5200 version does.

Your question made me wonder about the A8, so I just revisited that , and the original A8 version did too.

 

This version is based off of the 5200 port. I really wish it was based on the A8 version. The only difference I KNOW OF is the punching bag. On the A8 version, Popeye had to step off and punch, just like the arcade. On the 5200, they programmed it to leap if Popeye punches on the edge of the top right floor. I like having the control like the arcade, because sometimes I want to punch a heart or just punch for the heck of it, and I don't want to jump and hit the bag. ** Incidentally, I noticed that Popeye cannot grab the hearts by punching them in the arcade version!

 

I think updating the A8 graphics and then converting to the 5200 might actually be a pain. I know Playsoft wasn't looking to get overly involved in this, and he went way above and beyond! He would be the one that would know how easy it would be to bring back the extended player.

 

Wow, I didn't know there were any differences between the 5200 and 8-bit versions. I always assumed they did the 8-bit version and just changed the addresses to get it working on the 5200. I guess they decided that jumping off was too difficult so they changed it to make Popeye automatically do it in the 5200 version (the 8-bit version came first, I've seen a prototype for it). Probably due to the wonky 5200 controllers. They made controller changes for Frogger and Q*Bert too.

[+darryl1970]

 

Wow, I didn't know there were any differences between the 5200 and 8-bit versions. I always assumed they did the 8-bit version and just changed the addresses to get it working on the 5200. I guess they decided that jumping off was too difficult so they changed it to make Popeye automatically do it in the 5200 version (the 8-bit version came first, I've seen a prototype for it). Probably due to the wonky 5200 controllers. They made controller changes for Frogger and Q*Bert too.

Yes, and that used to p#$$ me off too. I NEVER had ANY problem with the 5200 controller, nor did any of my friends. I found them very comfortable. The only issue would be their reliability. I thought most games were rather forgiving. I don't really recall having any issues playing Popeye.

 

I wonder if the issues with the 5200 controller came from trying to hold the controller wrong.

 

Growing up, I had this book on how to win at arcade games. It stressed the importance of holding the joystick end between your thumb and index/middle finger. This was supposed to eliminate cramping. Doing this, my hand rested perfectly on the controller, and the buttons were in a perfect position.

 

I wonder if people who had trouble tried to clutch it with their fist. I can't imagine actually having a problem with the stick.

 

I truly believe it was caused by idiot magazine journalists that complained first. Then everybody caught the power of suggestion.

Add to it that the sticks broke easily, it cemented their doom.

 

...I digress. Thanks for letting me vent.. lol.

 

Yeah. That was the one of two differences I can recall. I also recall that the A8 didn't pause (not with spacebar or any button I could find).

So, maybe the 5200 is the best to port from.

[Jetboot Jack]

 

 

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope this didn't come across like I didn't appreciate it, just because I don't agree 100%. I am just in a rush and typing this before I have to go to my morning meeting at work.

 

 

 

 

Not at all, it's a perception thing - as you say there was ropey collision detection in the original - this is better, it just feels odd because of the way it looks...

 

I guess the new punch animation is very subtle, whereas the old was very bold. My button press had a dramatic (albeit unpredictable) effect on the character state, now much less so...

 

sTeVE

[+darryl1970]

I agree. There is something powerful about that reach. I remember always being critical of the 2600 port, because he didn't extend his arm. Ultimately, multiplexing a player or using a missile could be cool. That would require disassembling and reprogramming. The use of double-width is pretty clever.

 

Not at all, it's a perception thing - as you say there was ropey collision detection in the original - this is better, it just feels odd because of the way it looks...

 

I guess the new punch animation is very subtle, whereas the old was very bold. My button press had a dramatic (albeit unpredictable) effect on the character state, now much less so...

 

sTeVE

[José Pereira]

Aren't it 2Missiles per heart then 2x hearts per line makes the 4 Missiles and they are in 5th Player mode taking PF3 colour register?

It can't, this way have Missiles to extend width on Popeye or Brutus.

[Goochman]

I enjoyed the original release way back, but this updated version is really nice - well done.

 

The punch is a bit off, but it does work better for me than the original

[+Cafeman]

I wouldn't call it "broken" because when you understand the rules of Popeye's reach, the collision is much better now. But it is too bad that his punching arm is so short. It appears you are hitting air , but you are still successfully hitting the bottle which is a fist's distance away from Popeye's fist.

 

Can't you keep the frames of double-wide player and just make Popeye invincible to the bottle regardless of which of the two PLAYERS contact the bottle?

[+therealbountybob]

how about this for a wild theory - the punch is meant to be unreliable on our version? - probably not - but when played recenty in the HSC it was possible to do the first two boards (on the first 3 times though at least) without using the punch at all. I figured this was what the programmer had in mind? I couldn't figure out a way of doing the ship screen reliably without losing a life or two (as there was no side screen exit) - has anyone got a relable way of doing the ship screen? Would be good if the punches worked but if they are too easy it might spoil the game Think I remember playing the arcade version and you had to pummel the button rather than time it but might be wrong here.

 

someone remember to fix that round counter for double digits too

[Tempest]

For the ship all I usually do is go back and forth on the little platform until a letter is in range and grab it. This confuses Bluto so all he does is run back and forth. On the rare occasion I need to go below deck I grab the spinach first. The only thing you have to punch is the buzzard now and then. Well at least the first time through.

[+darryl1970]

For the ship all I usually do is go back and forth on the little platform until a letter is in range and grab it. This confuses Bluto so all he does is run back and forth. On the rare occasion I need to go below deck I grab the spinach first. The only thing you have to punch is the buzzard now and then. Well at least the first time through.

Yes. The ship is really TOO easy once you catch on to Brutus's flawed logic. It's a shame they didn't make him a little smarter.

 

I contacted Playsoft about the punch to get his take. Told him to check out the forum.

I would say the punch collision detection is right on now. I have an arcade machine. It's not quite button mashing.

The arcade will often have Popeye between two bottles or a skull and bottle (one left and on on right). It's vert easy to change direction, punch, and hit both.

[+darryl1970]

Aren't it 2Missiles per heart then 2x hearts per line makes the 4 Missiles and they are in 5th Player mode taking PF3 colour register?

It can't, this way have Missiles to extend width on Popeye or Brutus.

Yeah. That probably wouldn't be a workable solution in the game's current config. I am just throwing things out there that have been used to append players in general.

[+therealbountybob]

Yes. The ship is really TOO easy once you catch on to Brutus's flawed logic. It's a shame they didn't make him a little smarter.

 

I contacted Playsoft about the punch to get his take. Told him to check out the forum.

I would say the punch collision detection is right on now. I have an arcade machine. It's not quite button mashing.

The arcade will often have Popeye between two bottles or a skull and bottle (one left and on on right). It's vert easy to change direction, punch, and hit both.

Is it really too easy after the first round? How far did you guys get?

I'll play this version over the weekend

[+darryl1970]

Is it really too easy after the first round? How far did you guys get?

I'll play this version over the weekend

The only ramp up in difficulty is that Brutus walks faster, and the Sea Hag throws two bottles at a time. It's better than some conversions.

No skulls to trap you or give that suspense of wondering when it's going to drop down a level.

 

Anytime Brutus jumps up, jumps down, or swooshes his hand, he ALWAYS goes to the left.

So, just get him to jump or swoosh, and he'll run to the left. Stay on the right.

I hope that doesn't ruin it for anybody. I think it's still a little challenging.

[+playsoft]

I did not have any intention of changing the program other than including Darryl's graphics. We had a new double width punch image but in trying to improve it we settled on a single width image. This necessitated a change in the collision detection because there was no longer an extended arm to trigger the h/w detection.

 

Also while testing a bottle went through me which I assumed was because of the change in graphics. So I ended up with two new routines, one for detecting if you had punched a bottle and another for being hit by a bottle. However on subsequently playing the original a bottle went through me again, so it was an existing bug. I also managed to walk through Bluto on the original too.

 

For what it's worth here is a version 6 collection:

 

PA6_A8.rom - A8 version, new graphics only

PA6D_A8.xex - A8 version, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/original collision detection

PA6DC_A8.xex - A8 version, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/new collision detection

PA6SC_A8.xex - A8 version, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is single width/new collision detection

PA6D_5200.xex - 5200 port, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/original collision detection

PA6DC_5200.xex - 5200 port, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/new collision detection

PA6SC_5200.xex - 5200 port, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is single width/new collision detection

 

Also includes MaxFlash cart 1/8mbit combined/single images.

 

Edit: attachment updated with a new double width punch image.

PA6_update.zip

[+Cafeman]

PA6DC_A8.xex - A8 version, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/new collision detection

 

This is my favorite version! Although there is an unfortunate drop of resolution for the double-wide punch, to me it is necessary to feel like Popeye is actually punching those bottles. I can never get used to the single-width punch animation and its distance from the punched bottle.

 

I don't know why, but I couldn't get any of the 5200 versions to work in A800win4.

[+darryl1970]

I am also having a problem getting the 5200 images to run on kat5200.

 

PA6DC_A8.xex - A8 version, new graphics/title screen/animated water, punch is double width/new collision detection

 

This is my favorite version! Although there is an unfortunate drop of resolution for the double-wide punch, to me it is necessary to feel like Popeye is actually punching those bottles. I can never get used to the single-width punch animation and its distance from the punched bottle.

 

I don't know why, but I couldn't get any of the 5200 versions to work in A800win4.

[+darryl1970]

I don't know if this is me being a perfectionist or not.

 

Did I make the extended punch Popeye arm TOO long.

 

I added another double pixel to his arm, because it allowed me to better shape his arm.

 

I think it MAY look a little unnaturally long, or is that just me?

[+playsoft]

Cafeman, on 31 Oct 2015 - 8:00 PM, said:Cafeman, on 31 Oct 2015 - 8:00 PM, said:Cafeman, on 31 Oct 2015 - 8:00 PM, said:

I don't know why, but I couldn't get any of the 5200 versions to work in A800win4.

 

 

darryl1970, on 31 Oct 2015 - 9:18 PM, said:darryl1970, on 31 Oct 2015 - 9:18 PM, said:darryl1970, on 31 Oct 2015 - 9:18 PM, said:

I am also having a problem getting the 5200 images to run on kat5200.

 

Sorry, I was not clear, they are all A8 images. The _A8/_5200 designation indicates where the original code came from. The _A8 ones are modifications of the original A8 ROM. The _5200 ones are modifications of Homesoft's A8 port of the 5200 hack. They all run on an A8 and there's probably not much difference between the two versions other than that punch ball jump.

[+darryl1970]

Ah. .Makes sense. I definitively prefer the A8 version punch bag. .

 

I sent you a pm about my overly long punch. I cleaned Popeye up a little I think.