Madi Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) The following was a test conducted to proof that cheap FTDI Breakout Boards work. Test environment: 1- Atari 800XL with U1MB, Hi speed OS 2- Windows 10 X64 3- Cheap Generic FTDI 0f the range $2.38 - $2.54 (FT232RL 3.3V 5V FTDI USB to TTL Converter Adapter Module for Arduino Mini Port) The generic devise supports all Handshaking methods (RI, CTS, DSR (mistyped in reversed as RSD) 4- AspeQt v.1.0 elevating speed to reach to 0 devisor. Did not test is under RespeQt yet. Next Project >> Generic SIO2PC-10502PC dual USB. Waiting for parts. I will post the upcoming test results in this thread. madi I wish if there were reasonable pricing for the SIO plug/cable. (eBay offering $12+ for the cable and $17+ for shipping ). What a shame Edited September 8, 2015 by Madi 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuel Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 It's not ideal, but a cheaper solution to an SIO plug is to connect female jumper wires directly to the SIO pins on the Atari. Some pictures here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 It's not ideal, but a cheaper solution to an SIO plug is to connect female jumper wires directly to the SIO pins on the Atari. Some pictures here. You are correct Xuel .Actually, this exactly what I did. Just to let you know. I built my first SIO2PC device, based on the photos you posted on that thread. (using SparkFun FTDI, DEV-09716 that you recommended). madi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Building the not so expensive SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device Parts/Tools needed: 1- Solder less Breadboard for testing. For final assembly, get a perforated board or any board you like. 2- TRIPLE 2-CHANNEL ANALOG MULTIPLEXER/DEMULTIPLEXER - CD74HC4053E (DIP16) 3- FTDI Breakout board (clone) or SparkFun FTDI Basic Breakout - 5V DEV-09716. Please note, the SparkFun board doesn't have all pins available especially, the DSR handshake. The CTS will do, but if you really need the DSR, then you have to solder it. 4- One 5.6K, one 220 ohm resistor 5. Jumper wires for the Breadboard. 6. One signal diode (needed for the clone FTDI). SparkFun FTDI board works smoothly without the diode. 7- Optional 2 LED and 2 (~220 ohm) resistors needed for additional (external signal lights). 8- Two 9 pin headers for the clone FTDI board The following photo shows the parts when assembled on the breadboard. I am a lousy designer, but managed to draw some sort of schematics using free Eagle software. Since I have no access to PCB designing/making company where I live, I tried to make it simple (one side) for non technical people to etch and develop at home. If some one interested, I made a compact board where the FTDI board sets on top of the Multiplexer/Demultiplixer chip (IC1). It works but for sure it may be a tedious job for novice designer like me. Setting up the stage.. First: Running the device with Unregistered ProSystem version: Before plugging the device to the disk drive, be sure that the drive switch on the back (1050 was used) is at #1 position. Otherwise, the following message will be displayed Check Cables. No drives found on COM7!. The unregistered ProSystem version only supports 1 drive. By now, check that SIO cable is not plugged to Atari computer, or turn the Atari OFF. This picture will clarify it: The ProSystem with Drive #1 detected: And a copy disk process: Second: Running the device using AspeQt: Let the 1050 dive be #2 by selecting the position of the switch on the back. Turn on the drive and insert any floppy disk. Mount a bootable disk image (DOS) on AspeQt as Disk #1. Turn on ATARI and enjoy. Why is the diode needed for the clone device? I don't know for sure. When the device was running under AspeQt, I noticed that the virtual disk will boot smoothly even at Zero deviser with no noted error. But, when trying to access the Real drive (#2), error 139 occurs. I remembered the discussion of the open collector using diode on pin SIO3 to enable accessing virtual and real drives simultaneously. The problem with this solution is that it will not be possible to use the device as 1050 to PC. To solve this issue, a signal diode was inserted between pins 2 and 13 of the 4053 chip. This remedy, was discussed with Ray (atari8warez) when I bought v3.0 SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device. It was based on FT231XS chip. It was not possible to access mixed dives in the same session. He mentioned that he solved the issue later on in V3.1. My v3.0 SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB is sleeping tight somewhere as it was not very practically to run it. Sorry for the digression. The verdict.. This SIO2PC/10502PC device can be built (part costs) with less than $10.00 if "counterfeit" Breakboard is used. Still, it is not fool proof, especially it needed the diode to run properly compared to the genuine device. And not forgetting the driver bricking issue. On the other hand, the currently available SparkFun FTDI boards, lack some pins such as TXD, RXD and the DSR (although CTS will do). Of course it costs much more. Probably it worths it. madi 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 What's a good part number for the "counterfeit" device? I am looking for ones that have all the handshake lines connected RTS, CTS, DSR, etc. I am concerned that not all "counterfeit" chips are created equal. The driver issue doesn't bother me, I can handle that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 (edited) What's a good part number for the "counterfeit" device? I am looking for ones that have all the handshake lines connected RTS, CTS, DSR, etc. I am concerned that not all "counterfeit" chips are created equal. The driver issue doesn't bother me, I can handle that. As far as I know, there are multi sellers for the same device (on the board, DSR is written as RSD).There are minor variations for the board i.e. different voltage selector jumper or micro slide switch. The board and the components are the same. The best and complete FTDI clone board is the one I showed in earlier post. The price is in the range of $2.17 to 2.89 with free shipping. If you want the same board I purchased, google it with the following: ebay alice1101983 FT232RL FTDI Serials Adapter Module Mini Port f. Arduino USB to TTL 3.3V 5.5V alice1101983 Is the seller's username (a trusted supplier) in ebay.com There is a very cute board I got from the same seller. It only measures 15mm X 19mm and it comes with pin header. Unfortunately, it only provides 6 pins. Still very small ebay alice1101983 NEW V2.0 MICRO FT232RL USB to TTL Serial Breakout Be Please note it is a new version (V2.0) madi Edited November 18, 2015 by Madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Some photos that show building up process: One thing I couldn't solve: ProSystem for Windows (Trial Version) doesn't recognize the drive (as drive #1) if the SIO cable is connected to the Atari 800XL even when the XL800 is switched off. Why the SIO cable has to be unplugged from the computer for the ProSystem to recognize the drive? madi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Did you try it with the full version... did you try with atari left on and idle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Did you try it with the full version... did you try with atari left on and idle? Hi _The Doctor_ I don't have the full version. I tested the ProSystem (Trial Version) on 800XL with UM1 and a stock 130XE. ProSystem will not recognize drive 1 while the SIO cable is connected to any of the 2 computers (on -idle, during booting, even when the power is switched off). madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) So the way you designed this .. there are 2 sio outputs? one to go to a drive.. and the other to go to the computer aka 1. drive2pc and 2. sio2pc.. ???? thanks James Edited June 4, 2016 by Bikerbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted June 4, 2016 Author Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) So the way you designed this .. there are 2 sio outputs? one to go to a drive.. and the other to go to the computer aka 1. drive2pc and 2. sio2pc.. ???? thanks James I quoted the following from Ray's site with little modification to the original as the CTS is the only handshaking method the mini-brakeoutboard is providing: SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device will automatically detect the operation mode depending on where its Atari end is connected. When connected to an Atari computer the device will act as an SIO2PC, and when it's connected to a 810/1050 drive it will act as a 10502PC. This mode detection occurs at the hardware level and is not software dependent. Hardware level mode detection means you can simply unplug the device from the peripheral and plug it into your Atari (or vice versa) and it will immediately assume it's new role. No need to power cycle it either, so you can just leave it connected to your PC while you perform the switch. When in 10502PC mode you must disconnect your Atari from the SIO chain and remove all unnecessary SIO cables, otherwise the device will not detect your disk drives. SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device connects the serial port signal line CTS in SIO2PC mode, and the signal line DTR in 10502PC mode to the Atari SIO command line (SIO7) to communicate with the PC software. USB device on the other hand utilizes only the CTS signal as it doesn't have a 10502PC mode. So the emulator software you use must offer these lines for handshaking. Note: The jumper wires that are seen in my build are used as direct connections to the computer/drive SIO because I had no free SIO plug. madi Edited June 4, 2016 by Madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 when using the atarimax sio2pc usb.... I just leave it all connected.... if an image is in the ape slot it works..... if a disk is in a drive it works..... if I want to use the atr imaging function of the software to make a real disk or create an atr.... it works...... so long as you don't try to access peripherals at the same time... it's all good... no disconnecting this and reconnecting that..... turn off what ever drive is on the same id as a loaded slot or empty the slot the loaded drive is on.... no muss no fuss... with respeqt and the pclink.sys loaded.... I just load slots with hard drive folders and don't even have to worry about the slot/drive id conflict.... maybe that's the behavior to shoot for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 when using the atarimax sio2pc usb.... I just leave it all connected.... if an image is in the ape slot it works..... if a disk is in a drive it works..... if I want to use the atr imaging function of the software to make a real disk or create an atr.... it works...... so long as you don't try to access peripherals at the same time... it's all good... no disconnecting this and reconnecting that..... turn off what ever drive is on the same id as a loaded slot or empty the slot the loaded drive is on.... no muss no fuss... with respeqt and the pclink.sys loaded.... I just load slots with hard drive folders and don't even have to worry about the slot/drive id conflict.... maybe that's the behavior to shoot for? When the SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device is used as SIO2PC, it will act as another drive similar to Atarimax device. There is no need to disconnect any drive/peripheral in the line that is connected to Atari computer. All what you mentioned above regarding Atarimax SIO2PC will apply here. Aspeqt/Respeqt and pclink.sys will be used in the same manner. The SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device will autosense the setup. It will detect Atari computer along the line and will act as a drive/storage device. However, to use SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device as 10502PC device (communicates between the PC and the 1050/810 drive), things get different. First, Aspeqt/Respeqt can not be used. The device must be directly plugged into 1050/810 drive and Atari computer must be disconnected. Atarimax ProSystem is used to transfer data from PC to the drive. I don't have Atarimax SIO2PC device. Can you use ProSystem program to write to drive directly from PC (10502PC) while the Atari computer is ON and connected? In my case, I can use the device via loading ProSystem and transfer the data to the drive (10502PC) if the device is connected to the PC and the drive only. The device will not work as 10502PC if the Atari computer is connected. madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Well I like building things.. and I did build my SIO2PC Nick Kennedy model back in 1994 I think.. and I am using it right now So what I am thinking right now is .. do I build a seperate 10502pc.. as we talked in the other thread? do I build the duo? Or do I just use my money and buy the spiffy designed and built one from Steve(atarimax) that goes with the APE I just bought Hmmmmm buying it for $3 and building it sounds hard to argue with.. So if I just want to go 10502PC.. I just use the breakout and arrange the proper pins outs and im done? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 Well I like building things.. and I did build my SIO2PC Nick Kennedy model back in 1994 I think.. and I am using it right now So what I am thinking right now is .. do I build a seperate 10502pc.. as we talked in the other thread? do I build the duo? Or do I just use my money and buy the spiffy designed and built one from Steve(atarimax) that goes with the APE I just bought Hmmmmm buying it for $3 and building it sounds hard to argue with.. So if I just want to go 10502PC.. I just use the breakout and arrange the proper pins outs and im done? James I recommend that you get one of Atarimax Universal SIO2PC/ProSystem interface since you bought Ape software. If you enjoy "do it yourself" projects, I recommend that you obtain the Sparkfun FTDI Basic Breakout 5V. it costs $15 but you will not worry about bricking cloned FT232RL. Based on your request, I thought it will be good idea to use the same FTDI breakout board you provided the link (eBay) to make the modifications/Connections. What I did, is I drew the needed connections on the same board you provided in the link to make 10502PC and also to configure it as SIO2PC device (if desired). Please note that it is "counterfeit" Breakboard. You must not install FTDI drivers newer than 10, otherwise the chip will be bricked. With genuine FTDI board, you do not need to add D1 for SIO2PC version. The Diode is only needed for the cloned FTDI Breakout board. See attached pictures for both SIO2PC and 10502PC. madi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Supposedly, FTDI removed the code that "knocks out" "knock off" chips from their drivers. In case that helps. Edited June 6, 2016 by fujidude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 So what I am thinking right now is .. do I build a seperate 10502pc.. as we talked in the other thread? do I build the duo? Or do I just use my money and buy the spiffy designed and built one from Steve(atarimax) that goes with the APE I just bought Are you all saying there is an Atarimax 10502PC available? Because, if so, they don't make it clear on their website. I've wanted to hook up a 1050 drive to my Mac for a while now, but 10502PC doesn't seem to be in regular stock anywhere. All I see is the occasional build of a few of them. I rarely get in on limited time offers, I generally need things to be in regular supply, unfortunately for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Oh wow...reading more closely on their website, they call one mode APE/SIO2PC But the other mode, they just call ProSystem. If they called it ProSystem/10502PC then I would've picked up on the meaning. All this time, I didn't get it - never heard of ProSystem, so it didn't register. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Oh wow...reading more closely on their website, they call one mode APE/SIO2PC But the other mode, they just call ProSystem. If they called it ProSystem/10502PC then I would've picked up on the meaning. All this time, I didn't get it - never heard of ProSystem, so it didn't register. I dont think there is a MAC OS version of prosystem ... guess you could run Parallels or Vmware or something. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Thanks for all the help Madi, Not sure where you got the idea that .. that was the board I was looking at I put a link to this one. This is still a knock off I assume? But I would use the same lines to an SIO end that you drew up correct? This will allow me to use the prosystem. So could I not solder these lines to the backside of the connector inside and then cut a small opening for the usb cable?? Ohhh this should be nice. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) I dont think there is a MAC OS version of prosystem ... guess you could run Parallels or Vmware or something. If it can act as a 10502PC, then a Mac user would use it, with whatever software they intended to use with a 10502PC...whether ProSystem on WINE, or VirtualBox and ubuntu/Aspeqt, or whatever else. The real question is if it's a 10502PC - the Mac part is really superfluous. if it's a 10502PC, then it's the only one that I know about that you can just order and buy. Everything else comes up on an irregular basis and is generally unavailable. Maybe I'm in the rarity, because I'm so often recommended to buy this or that, that you cannot actually buy - and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. to me, it's really important if something is available or just a nice dream.... Edited June 6, 2016 by Dmitry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Oh wow...reading more closely on their website, they call one mode APE/SIO2PC But the other mode, they just call ProSystem. If they called it ProSystem/10502PC then I would've picked up on the meaning. All this time, I didn't get it - never heard of ProSystem, so it didn't register. You are right, many people got confused by the naming Atarimax used for their interfaces. Atarimax SIO2PC/Prosystem is actually, SIO2PC/10502PC Dual interface. When the interface is used with Ape software, (needs Atari computer) it acts as a disk drive. If the interface is used with Prosystem part of the software, you will be able to write and read directly to the disk drive fro PC. No Atari computer is required. The Ape/Prosystem software has more features of course. madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Thanks for all the help Madi, Not sure where you got the idea that .. that was the board I was looking at I put a link to this one. Micro-USB-Port-For-Arduino-FTDI-Module-USB-TTL-FT232RL-Serial-Adapter-Converter-USB-To-TTL.jpg_640x640.jpg This is still a knock off I assume? But I would use the same lines to an SIO end that you drew up correct? This will allow me to use the prosystem. So could I not solder these lines to the backside of the connector inside and then cut a small opening for the usb cable?? Ohhh this should be nice. James True.. this FTDI clone breakout board is the one I used to build my SIO2PC/10502PC Dual-USB device. It has all extra pins such as RXL/TXL (for external LEDs) and DSR/CTS handshaking lines. In addition, it has 6 pin panel (VCC, GRD, CTS, DTR, RXD and TXD) which is all what you may need to build SIO2PC or 10502PC device. The drawing/connection in post #16 applies. The device can be mounted inside the Atari computer (SIO2PC) or inside the 1050 drive (SIO2PC) or even as 10502PC but the Atari computer must be disconnected from the line. Actually, I built my first FTDI based breakout (SIO2PC only) inside the disk drive (at the pack side as see in the picture): madi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Thanks again madi, my boards are on the way.. they are the same as you used. For $2 ea.. I ordered 2. When you built your combo device you used interconnect pins between the two boards no?? You did not get those pins with the board correct? I hope I can grab some at the electronics store. I am going to make the simple striaghtforward 10502pc in one of my 1050s. If that goes well then I will build the external combo device to clean up my desk of my old sio2pc serial, get into the usb.. which will be better, because I think I would not mind using a RPI3 with a 16gb sd card as my APE server.. RPI3 can run an embedded version of Windows 10.. and APE can run on windows 10 James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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