p.opus Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 In my opinion, if the title is out of print, then there is ZERO difference between buying a used game and downloading a ROM. In both instances, the original copyright holder is getting ZERO benefit. I've purchased three flashbacks and all available Atari greatest hits. Thus I have purchased my license to use the software many times over. All the other ROMS I have are no longer available, so I don't see the need to pay for a used cartridge since I know the seller isn't going to forward any of his proceeds to the copyright holder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) "Multicart" & "I don't want to infringe on any copyright laws" in the same sentence? That is like saying I want to take a shower but don't want to get wet Not all multicarts infringe on copyright. Action 52, anyone? All the other ROMS I have are no longer available, so I don't see the need to pay for a used cartridge since I know the seller isn't going to forward any of his proceeds to the copyright holder. But technically you are denying the seller a sale... Edited September 14, 2015 by stardust4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 This is why I have not played Space Rocks yet. Looks like my 'new favorite game,' but it feels like cheating to play it because the author still makes money off sales. It's not cheating since I put the ROM out there for anybody to download. Gives me incentive to buy the cart. I consider it "try before you buy". 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) I would like to buy "Princess Rescue" from the Atari Age store! (I may also like to discuss the Super Bowl with someone in public.) Edited September 14, 2015 by Papa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I would like to buy "Princess Rescue" from the Atari Age store! (I may also like to discuss the Super Bowl with someone in public.) Nintendo had to be a party-pooper on that front with the C&D after it went viral (I'm lucky to own this title and have my name credited in the manual as a beta tester), but the binaries are free to download for play in Stella or Harmony. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/215058-princess-rescue-binaries-released/?p=2801638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimakis Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 In my opinion, if the title is out of print, then there is ZERO difference between buying a used game and downloading a ROM. In both instances, the original copyright holder is getting ZERO benefit. I've purchased three flashbacks and all available Atari greatest hits. Thus I have purchased my license to use the software many times over. All the other ROMS I have are no longer available, so I don't see the need to pay for a used cartridge since I know the seller isn't going to forward any of his proceeds to the copyright holder. It's still bad, because it decreases the demand for the actual product. Because of the first sale doctrine, people that own the games hold a transferable license. By pirating games that are no longer published and sold, you are still negatively impacting the secondary market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoonPatrol Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) Ever notice that the the peeps who sorta preach about stealing from a hobby they love often get their anime or music for free from another hobby that they don't quite share the same passion for? I have a few friends who use to do this when i rigged my old Sony PSP to play free games, they'd waggle their finger at me and sorta chew me out. Yet their movie collections were never paid for. LOL. Edited September 14, 2015 by PhoenixMoonPatrol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixMoonPatrol Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I just placed an order for the game a few days ago in the Atari Age store. You made a great point here, you gave the rom for free for us to enjoy, and many of us want to own it on cart now. Amazing game,thanks for making a classic even better for the 2600. It's not cheating since I put the ROM out there for anybody to download. I consider it "try before you buy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloth-machine Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Not all multicarts infringe on copyright. Action 52, anyone? But technically you are denying the seller a sale... You're right, but I meant personal use Multicarts such as Harmony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.opus Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 It's still bad, because it decreases the demand for the actual product. Because of the first sale doctrine, people that own the games hold a transferable license. By pirating games that are no longer published and sold, you are still negatively impacting the secondary market. I don't care about the secondary market. Those who want secondary carts, buy them to collect, not to play. As I have said, most of the games I have I have repurchased three or four times over, and quite frankly I have no desire to line the pockets of some guy because he stumbled across a cartridge in a yard sale. I would be much more willing to pay 80 bucks if they released boulder dash than pay 40 bucks for a copy of H.E.R.O. that some guy picked up for .50 at a Goodwill. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimakis Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I don't care about the secondary market. Those who want secondary carts, buy them to collect, not to play. As I have said, most of the games I have I have repurchased three or four times over, and quite frankly I have no desire to line the pockets of some guy because he stumbled across a cartridge in a yard sale. I would be much more willing to pay 80 bucks if they released boulder dash than pay 40 bucks for a copy of H.E.R.O. that some guy picked up for .50 at a Goodwill. I mean, I think that's a pretty short-sighted comment. I buy carts to play, not only to collect. Regardless, people can commit piracy for whatever financial reason they want. Not wanting to line the pockets of yard-salers is in effect no different to robbing a department store because you don't want to "line the pockets" of the Macy's shareholders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.opus Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I mean, I think that's a pretty short-sighted comment. I buy carts to play, not only to collect. Regardless, people can commit piracy for whatever financial reason they want. Not wanting to line the pockets of yard-salers is in effect no different to robbing a department store because you don't want to "line the pockets" of the Macy's shareholders. We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Your analogy is flawed. When you "rob" someone, you, A. Deny them access to the goods they possess, B. by possessing such goods, you prevent the owner from selling it. I have done neither. If you are unable to see the difference, I can't help you with that. Go in peace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimakis Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Your analogy is flawed. When you "rob" someone, you, A. Deny them access to the goods they possess, B. by possessing such goods, you prevent the owner from selling it. I have done neither. If you are unable to see the difference, I can't help you with that. Go in peace. If you want to be technical, intellectual property is capitalized on a company's balance sheet based on the idea it has some value and in the future can generate them revenue. By pirating an old game, if it's done on a large enough scale, it will devalue the IP. Companies' won't rerelease old games because few people will buy them due to large availability due to piracy, So yes, this is a little unrelated to my comment above, but piracy still has an effect of the same type as stealing. Stolen goods get written off the companies books, and old IP get's written down as it loses value. Same thing. Decreasing the value of the owner. As far as no caring about the secondary market. Piracy is really about not wanting to pay for something which you are legally obligated to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) So yes, this is a little unrelated to my comment above, but piracy still has an effect of the same type as stealing. ... the magnitude of which, in the context of most intellectual properly, is widely over-blown by the (usually corporate) rights-holding entities who control the terms of the public discourse with their (not coincidental) ownership of most media outlets: television, radio, print, syndicated web sites,. Actual damages caused by someone downloading the roms for a 38 year old game system and playing them via emulation or on a multi-cart are so ludicrously de minimus as to be absurd. I would even venture to assert that such damages, if even calculable, would be several orders of magnitude less than a penny. These arguments have been made time and again by Big Media since the days when Edison cylinders and phonographs supplanted live music and cut heavily into the sales of printed sheet music. Look it up. I have. In fact, this whole debate has been done, many times over, on this very website. Argument, counter-argument, et cetera, ad nauseum, ad tedium. Yes, I recognize the B.S. when I see it, and can sling it right back at you with aplomb until I'm bored. Which is right now. Have a nice day, counselor. Edited September 14, 2015 by DrVenkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 What's everyone's take on activision threatening atariage if they didn't take down their roms? To me, that just gets me angry. Makes me dislike the company, and even actively avoid their other offerings. But thankfully they remain available from 100 other sites! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Also, what's everyone's opinions on if you had certain game x, and it was stolen or destroyed, what is legality on having x rom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic George 2K3 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Extra Credits' video about the issue of piracy is a must-watch if you want a definite answer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfZv_lPwBFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhomaios Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 ... the magnitude of which, in the context of most intellectual properly, is widely over-blown by the (usually corporate) rights-holding entities who control the terms of the public discourse with their (not coincidental) ownership of most media outlets: television, radio, print, syndicated web sites,. Actual damages caused by someone downloading the roms for a 38 year old game system and playing them via emulation or on a multi-cart are so ludicrously de minimus as to be absurd. I would even venture to assert that such damages, if even calculable, would be several orders of magnitude less than a penny. These arguments have been made time and again by Big Media since the days when Edison cylinders and phonographs supplanted live music and cut heavily into the sales of printed sheet music. Look it up. I have. In fact, this whole debate has been done, many times over, on this very website. Argument, counter-argument, et cetera, ad nauseum, ad tedium. Not to mention that the courts have roundly rejected this argument. Anybody who uses it is doesn't know jack about the topic, never bothered obviously to look deeply into it. No wonder it's the kids these days who are making the argument the loudest, as they're the ones most brainwashed by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+thegoldenband Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Not all multicarts infringe on copyright. Action 52, anyone? Er, I think that might not be the most felicitous example... And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUgTOvK3A6E#t=81 (Start at 1:21 if the link doesn't autocue) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimakis Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Here's the point. Say you have an old game like Pitfall. People want to play Pitfall. The rights to Pitfall have some value. In a world where piracy is impossible, people would have to buy an original copy, or a rerelease. This is where the value of the Pitfall copyright comes from. In a world where every potential consumer has pirated Pitfall, no one will need to buy a Pitfall re-release. So using a little limits math. As number of people who pirate Pitfall approaches infinity, the value of Pitfall copyright approaches zero. You can call it BS, but it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 You can call it BS, but it makes sense. It only makes sense if the original build of Pitfall is stll being sold in a format compatible with original Atari 2600 hardware. If Activision were selling an Atari game compilation for Wii U then that format should be protected, but cartridge binaries for Atari 2600 hardware are fair game, in my opinion. The moment they abandon a format is the moment that they lose protection. If they've gained all they can monetarily then moved on to another system, then nothing of value is lost if copies are played on the abandoned hardware. If they had a stake in it then they would still be cranking out Atari cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 If they had a stake in it then they would still be cranking out Atari cartridges. That would be awesome, because you could convince one of the foreign manufacturers to sell you shells. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 That would be awesome, because you could convince one of the foreign manufacturers to sell you shells. LOL That would be cool to see AtariAge homebrews use the old Activision shells. I like the way they interlock when stacked and the labels can be printed out in one piece. Now it's just a matter of convincing Activision that Pitfall for Atari 2600 hardware is still a viable market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Er, I think that might not be the most felicitous example... And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUgTOvK3A6E#t=81 (Start at 1:21 if the link doesn't autocue) Yes, I have that track on an old Jock Jams CD so I'm well aware where they ripped the PCM samples from. I recently picked up a Genesis copy (because NES is absurdly expensive and an order of magnitude suckier) and the one thing I miss compared to the NES shitastrophe is the Take Two title screen. If you wanna be technical, I used Action 52 as an example because the games themselves (excluding the title) aren't violating IP. In fact they created a cult classic with Chetahmen I + II. I also own Maxi 15 but that's really a compilation of prior release unlicensed games, albeit by permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) As for the piracy debate, there seems to be a circular logic going on here. A pirated copy does not in and of itself constitute loss of the full retail value, and in some cirumstances can contribute to a sale, as Spiceware points out: It's not cheating since I put the ROM out there for anybody to download. I consider it "try before you buy". People who only emulate the ROMs on a PC or other device nonnative to the platform are not going to buy a game they can't play without hardware. Secondly anyone who games on real hardware is a collector of sorts, even if they don't own a single game. For intance, even if I buy an Atari and a Harmony and never purchase a single game, I am a hardware collector because I've "collected" a console and the bare necessities to run them, ie, AC power, switchbox or RF connector, and a pair of joysticks and paddles. Thirdly, since games are cheap and the gamer cares about authenticity if he or she has purchased real hardware, the next logical step would be picking up enjoyable game carts, staring with low hanging fruit and working up to expensive or rare titles. So it is likely if Johnny downloads Space Rocks ROM to his Harmony and loves it, he may save up to buy the real game cartridge. All said and done, I have pirated numerous Super Mario Brothers ROMs, with and without the title screen intact, and tested many ROM hacks and experimented with making my own. But I also have four licensed physical editions of Super Mario Brothers for NES and four bootlegs: Super Mario Bros, SMB/DH, SMB/DH/WCTM, and PAL exclusive Mario/Tetris/World Cup, a VS SMB repro, a Lost Levels repro, a Power Joy pirate multicart, and an NWC repro if you count that as including the game. I also own Super Mario All Stars + World (SNES), Super Mario Deluxe (GBC), Super Mario Bros Classic NES Series (GBA), Famicom Mini Series #21: Mario 2 FDS (Lost Levels GBA), All Stars Mario 25th Anniversary (Wii reissue), 3 licensed digital copies of Super Mario Bros on VC (3DS, Wii, Wii-U) and 3 licensed digital copies of Lost Levels too... Oh, and one sealed and one loose copy of Princess Rescue Atari homebrew, if that counts... Yes, Nintendo, I pirated Super Mario Bros. But I also have licensed copies of literally every port you've ever made. Nintendo feel free to port Super Mario Bros to something else. I will probably buy that too. TLDR - the emulation and hardware crowds are two separate and distinct groups of gamers so the piracy of one group will not impact the collecting of the other, but can contribute to additional sales where the groups merge. Piracy on modern platforms still for sale has the opposite effect however, since the games are expensive and cutting edge, the desire to play them cheaply is high and so is risk to the publisher. I also got lots of Mario variants. Edited September 15, 2015 by stardust4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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