FPGA Based Videogame System

[Wolf_]

Ah, but isn't it convenient that the Super NT will be sold at less than 200$? If the Genesis NT is sold at roughly the same price, then collectors can purchase both, while Genesis fans will feel free to skip the Super NT and purchase the Genesis NT instead. If all the 8-bit cores are made available on both the Super NT and Genesis NT, then both FPGA machines become equally desirable from a marketing standpoint. It all makes good business sense, at least to me.

Except you are forgetting to factor in several things:

1) Image - A lot of people will DESPISE a company that releases the same product multiple times with a different switch flipped to decide what features this one offers that can just as easily be offered on one. Getting hated and negative pr is bad business.

2) If the consoles are identical on the inside someone could just copy and paste the easily flashable firmware from one to the other. A jailbroken jailbroken firmware. I shall call it prisonshank'd firmware.

3) That doesn't track with the image the company has put forth so far in the slightest. They could have released a master system console if they wanted to and you can bet your ass it would have sold.

 

 

Wolf, My point is this: Analogue probably has plans to release other retro clone systems (Genesis, TG16, Neo Geo, etc) in the future, like in a year or several years. And for money since they are a business. If they do, there is no way they are going to let their super star employee release certain cores for free if it is a conflict of interest. Straight business 101. Even if Kevtris wanted to make those cores, why would he program them for free considering it takes many months to develop just one of them? Kevtris deserves to and will get paid for core development that takes so much time. From a business perspective with some logic and reason applied, it makes no sense that 16-bit cores are coming for free in a jailbreak firmware for the Super NT. I just don't believe we will see cores for other 16-bit systems on the Super NT. Analogue will be releasing other 16-bit systems as separate and new products in the future. Yes the Super NT is open source, so anyone can hack it and make cores for it. I don't think Analogue would make a system and lock it down. But how many people actually know how to hack and program the FPGAs in the NT Mini and the Super NT? I say one person. The guy who designed and programmed it. He is employed by Analogue and unfortunately I believe he is restricted by contract from releasing certain firmware for free.

No, they have plans to release other fpga systems. They never said what those systems were. Based on the direction they have moved in so far the most reasonable assumption would be that they are planning on releasing the next generation in the next several years, like the n64, ps1, and saturn (god help Kevtris when he tries to replicate that monstrosity).

 

Why would Kevtris program all the other cores he has done for free if that were his motive? We don't know what his contract says. For all we know it says that he was hired for x many years with a salary of y for those years. Or that he is paid based on a percentage of what the consoles sell (in which case adding as many cores as he can into them would sell them incredibly fast at a sub $200 price point).

 

IF analogue sells clone consoles of other 16 or 8 bit systems then imo it will simply be so that people can have the proper controller and cartridge ports and cutified mini versions and they won't restrict the cores available on them at all, and even if they did without changing the hardware or firmware flashing methods it would all be for nothing because someone would just prisonshank it. (See above for an explanation on prisonshanking)

Edited October 17, 2017 by Wolf_

[Guspaz]

It's still zero lag like before or you can have the fully buffered experience like on the framemeister.

 

*snip*

 

Yes, it uses the Cyclone V similar to the mini but it's the A4 version instead of the A2 so lots more resources! (yeay)

 

The A4 doesn't have nearly enough internal RAM for a scaled framebuffer, could you talk about how that's implemented? I figure you've either got external RAM attached to the A4, or you've got a scaling subsystem separate from the A4, or you're maybe buffering the source resolution frame and not the scaled frame?

[jamon1567]

Yep, I been at work. sorry 'bout that. hehe. I can't really answer a lot of questions yet, but I can say these things:

 

Yes, this is 100% my FPGA design here and it is not one of the other SNES cores.

It runs all custom chip carts, super gameboy (1 and 2), game saver+ (lol), even tested a doctor sf disk based thinger, and the sd2snes is what I used during dev so that works great as well. I tested the Sufami Turbo and that works as well. Basically it runs every single thing I can stuff into the cart slot. I did a lot of testing with dozens of carts and all the various add-on devices I have and could find. I have not tested the MSU-1 but since the SD2SNES itself works 100%, I don't see why this won't work either. I will try it soon just to confirm. Audio input on the cart slot is supported and that's mainly what it adds.

 

So with all that said, is the system capable of running all of the SNES/SFC library from SD, or is an original cart and/or rom cart necessary for all/certain titles?

[kevtris]

One quick question I have, is some older flat panel HDTV sets support 720p/1080i only. Would your console support 720p mode as an option for these sets, or anyone who doesn't want to crop the picture with 5x scaling? Thanks...

 

Awesome to know now what some speculated all along: confirmation that your "secret" FPGA commission project was none other than the Super Nintendo. Bravo!

yeah it supports the same modes the nt mini does. 480p60, 720p60, 1080p60, 576p50, 720p50, and 1080p50

[Keatah]

FPGA's offer security and can be made to accept only X firmware. Look at military hardware, it's nothing new.

 

Since we don't know Analogue's marketing strategy or internal discussions or even what kev's contract(s) say/said, we can only guess as to what the future holds. It's to a company's advantage to not reveal everything. It's common sense.

[Flojomojo]

I see a lot of speculation about how Analogue will market future products. Howzabout we not get ahead of ourselves, enjoy this one *for what it is* and if there are some yummy extras, that's great, too? It's 4 months away. Let's not pre-emptively nerd-rage against it for what it *might not* be.

 

Kev, will the "Core Store"^TM be open for the Super?

 

I cannot comment on such things at this time.

 

That wasn't a denial.

 

They've done 3 related but ultimately very different products so far. I don't think it's fair to ASSume they'd stick the exact same hardware in a different shell just to try to get people to re-buy their stuff. AtGames does that with $40 toys, but I want to believe this is something different. If a followup device comes along later, it should have significantly different capabilities to justify the extra SKU and asking price. Especially since no licensed software is included.

[F34R]

I'm skeptical about not having analog out for some CRT goodness, but I'll just convert the HDMI to VGA I guess... pre-ordered. It'll look nice next to my NT Mini, which I use A LOT lol. Having the SD slot pushed me into the "but it now" category even though I have a perfectly good SNES original and SNES Classic.

[RevQuixo]

I think reshelled 16bit Nts would have real diminishing returns for Genesis, TurboGrafx, etc. None of us need additional single system clones. We have OSSCs and RGB. What we need is the value that a single jail broken system provides. I have to believe that Analogue can see that the seedi and polymega and retrons of the world are the trend that we don’t want to replace all our retro systems with analogue builtequivalents. Next system, will either be a multi handheld or an N64 level system. Core store will come and backfill the catalog.

[Pixelboy]

If it runs on an SNES it should run on this. If it's just a pins-converter, it obviously won't work.

Actually, as I understand it, this adaptor only uses the Super-NES for power and controller input. It outputs video and audio via its own component cable. It's really a Game Boy Advance in a cartridge format.

[Toth]

Could the Super Nt have some sort of expansion slot on the back to allow an analog add on card for output? I know it was mentioned they may release a different analog model later but could this one have been designed in such a way you could just have an expansion card connect to the back with analog outputs?

 

I suppose they would have probably mentioned if it was set up in that way or could they still be finalizing a detail like that based on demand? Like if we showed enough support for analog maybe could they do something like that?

 

I'm hoping the fact they specifically mentioned firmware updates via SD card means extra cores are coming. Like it was sort of their little hint to us that it does have an sd card and it can be used for firmware updates...hint, hint...wink, wink... I mean, why have one of your "special" features be that you can update the firmware via SD card? Nintendo would probably frown upon it if it was advertised that it could run games from multiple systems directly from an sd card.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Toth

[cacophony]

I think reshelled 16bit Nts would have real diminishing returns for Genesis, TurboGrafx, etc. None of us need additional single system clones. We have OSSCs and RGB. What we need is the value that a single jail broken system provides. I have to believe that Analogue can see that the seedi and polymega and retrons of the world are the trend that we don’t want to replace all our retro systems with analogue builtequivalents. Next system, will either be a multi handheld or an N64 level system. Core store will come and backfill the catalog.

 

Maybe it will actually be a core store in that you can purchase additional 16 bit cores for $40 each.

[+eebuckeye]

I can believe that. I doubt they keep giving cores away when they know there is a market.

 

If all the cores are available for free it does make the NT Mini which was really expensive almost worthless (I do understand it does have advantages for original hardware etc..).

[AtariNerd]

Knew something was up when I noted the massive uptick in visitors to the forum and saw that this thread was up at top.

 

Many nice hardware thingies coming soon...already have a NT Mini, so it depends if that which can't be mentioned right now regarding firmware, comes into fruition a little later on.

 

In one of the interviews given, they mention entertaining the idea for a deluxe analogue-equipped edition, if the demand is there.(My bottom is lazy, so I'll let people ferret it out for themselves.) They mention that the Super NT basically uses the same board as the Mini (perhaps with a few revisions and tweaks), with a more capable FPGA and the ana-out bits and bobs left off. I guess the NES-specific ports and pin-outs would need to be left out or reconfigured (cart , expansion and control ports ), as well. If someone is really adept with the iron, has the Mini, they might hazard to experiment with bodging parts from the donor into the new beast, along with any warranty.

 

I suspect that that since firmware builds would necessarily need to be different between the two (shrimpin' err shankin' might not be that easy), that wouldn't be supported, at least not right off-hand; until something official was released.

[+remowilliams]

I see a lot of speculation about how Analogue will market future products. Howzabout we not get ahead of ourselves, enjoy this one *for what it is* and if there are some yummy extras, that's great, too? It's 4 months away. Let's not pre-emptively nerd-rage against it for what it *might not* be.

 

Totally agree, lets wait and see - and hope

 

I'll say this though, if the business model is to release nearly identical internals with different control ports and different locked cores - this will be the first and last purchase I make from this company for a few reasons...

[Guspaz]

Testing of HDMI-to-VGA adapters for the OSSC over on the shmups forums has shown that some of them can do 240p (240p is part of the HDMI spec). If the Super Nt supported 240p HDMI output, one of these adapters would allow you to use the Super Nt on a 15 kHz RGB monitor like a PVM. The only issue is sync: you would have separate H/V sync. You can combine them in different ways, like an extron sync processor or RGB interface. On a PVM you can probably even get away with just connecting the two sync lines together using a T plug or something. That does not remotely generate a valid csync signal, but a PVM will probably understand it well enough.

[Flojomojo]

Totally agree, lets wait and see - and hope

 

I'll say this though, if the business model is to release nearly identical internals with different control ports and different locked cores - this will be the first and last purchase I make from this company for a few reasons...

I don't even care if they do that, so long as we are not locked out of making whatever we buy "our own." They're better off selling one thing to a great many people than several things to just a few people.

[Keatah]

Just wondering how we would make what we buy "our own"? Who would program these?

[Smoke Monster]

This is very exciting.

[Sneakyturtleegg]

Just wondering how we would make what we buy "our own"? Who would program these?

 

Part of my previous point. The NT Mini and the Super NT are open source for anybody to do what they want with them. Right now, there is only one person who knows how to program them.

[Keatah]

They could make it where their own cores are locked to a specific board/fpga, and yet have it remain open for 3rd party to come in and make something. A little like Tivoisation..

[+remowilliams]

I don't even care if they do that, so long as we are not locked out of making whatever we buy "our own." They're better off selling one thing to a great many people than several things to just a few people.

 

Just wondering how we would make what we buy "our own"? Who would program these?

 

Exactly. If the cores are locked to specific internally identical models with different cases/control ports, and those cores are the massively desirable kevtris cores - other than slapping stickers on the case, making it 'our own' means nothing.

 

Hence the first and last purchase...

[Tusecsy]

I can believe that. I doubt they keep giving cores away when they know there is a market.

 

If all the cores are available for free it does make the NT Mini which was really expensive almost worthless (I do understand it does have advantages for original hardware etc..).

 

NT mini has analog output and a much nicer shell. Notice all the people asking for analog output in the last few pages?....

 

The NT Mini cores WILL be available for the Super NT, 100%. There will be a SNES core and eventually genesis/turbografx at least, 100%.

 

Bookmark this post and refer to it in 4 months, so I don't have to tell you "I told you so"

 

Analogue doesn't care about some convoluted shit marketing/business model like all the other companies who have to prop up their products with hot air. They produce unique items that people actually want to purchase. They don't give two shits about what people do aftermarket, they encourage it. All it does is drive more sales.

 

Genesis NT was just a brainstorm, and it'd be a good solution to convoluted cart/controller adapters (pick your preference when you buy the fpga). A large majority of people who buy the Super NT will probably never hack it, just as the snes mini. And nobody would be forcing you to buy it so I don't know why this would turn you off to the company. You'd rather they milk you for your dough one system at a time and stop their best programmer from releasing cores? I feel bad for whatever business you work for if this is your mindset.

 

I understand the pessimism in this industry with all the hot air and dead products, but this is Kevtris we're talking about, when has he ever let you down?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Andromeda Stardust]

I don't see any reason why Analogue would impose restrictions on jailbreaking. The NT Mini sold an asston of units selling out almost immediately after the jailbreak firmware was announced. They could sell an asston more Supers after launch if the Super NT gets jailbroken. And they could still sell a Genesis model or cost reduced NT NES if they wanted. People would buy them for the carts and controllers.

[Austin]

It's interesting to see this come to fruition. I don't have a need for one but I will still be curious to hear from people that do purchase it.

 

The thing is, I feel this to be more redundant than the previous NES FPGA efforts like the NT Mini or AVS. Those had much more significant roles to play thanks to NES RGB or HDMI mods being expensive, along with the original toaster models being infamous for their cart slot reliability issues. The SNES doesn't share these problems thanks to handling RGB out by default and not having any other noteworthy hardware issues. I feel like people that are serious about having many systems work on their modern displays will already be going the upscaler route, so it makes me wonder who this clone is going to be for.

 

I suppose the biggest appeal will be like the NT Mini where it will best serve as a multi-platform device once other cores are made available. I would possibly be interested in one if it has all of the previously available cores. No sense in dropping $400+ on a NT Mini for these cores if I can spend $200 and potentially have more in the end.

[Tusecsy]

"The whole beginning of Analogue and the kind of products we've wanted to make is this holy grail, end-all, pedestal sort of thing," Analogue CEO and founder Christopher Taber tells me during a Skype call from Hong Kong, where the company keeps a second office to monitor its supply chain. "It's a have every single feature and every single detail you can possibly imagine and make it as good as it can possibly be mindset. You don't see a lot of products in any category that do that, because obviously that ends up making them very expensive."

 

god I love this man. i wish every industry had an analogue co. equivalent. instead of today's constant race to the bottom (thanks china!).