FPGA Based Videogame System

[keepdreamin]

I don't own either device.

 

 

I own both.

 

Considering the FPGA isn't a deciding factor in why it was discontinued, I wouldn't consider it a "FPGA device". It's a dedicated video processor with a FPGA in a support function.

[kevtris]

 

Someone has asked about the Super Retro Advance again, this time on reddit. It uses its own audio/video output (composite) but you control the game with the SNES controller attached to the console. Is this what you meant by "a pins-converter", Kevtris? Or you had in mind something like the Famicom to the NES converter? Wouldn't the separate video/audio outputs of the SRA cause issues (because the Super Nt would be looking for the HDMI video/audio or something)?

 

BTW, RetroRGB did an overview of this device, and it seems that it does not suck totally (but it's definitely not good).

 

EDIT: Well, the manual says that the SRA: "Works with original or third party 16-bit consoles"

Yes it should work fine, but of course you have to use their composite video cable to get any video out of it. A "pins converter" is just a PCB that has no active components on it, and simply translates one cartridge port pinout to another. This is more of a complete system that just uses the SNES for power and controllers but nothing else.

[Toth]

 

Will we see reviews before it's too late to order one for February delivery?

You can always do the little trick where you put like 5000 of them into your cart. That will automatically lower the amount to what is probably the number they actually have. Right now it lowers the number of black to 51, classic (NA colors) to 51 and Super Famicom to 6. No clue if that is accurate but if I was considering one I would jump on it I think before those numbers hit 0.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Toth

[Andromeda Stardust]

I am not even arguing any of this, but what is the point bringing it up all the time? 99% of people roaming this forum, including myself, are aware that what they do with their NT Mini is not 100% legal.

As for me, I have no NT mini so I have no horse in this race. I have an AVS and I can honestly say I've done nothing illegle with it.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

The odds of gettting a GPM model that works is not that high, but I've already had that argument elsewhere in this thread and in another thread about SNES reliability, so I'm not going to rehash it. Suffice it to say the reliability of the 1991 (SHVC-CPU-01) models is in question and lucking out and getting the later models took me 5 tries to get a working model (SNS-GPM-02) at about 75$ each.

 

 

Yep, the OSSC/Framemeister alone is $200, and a framemeister (discontinued apparently $400.) Both are FPGA devices.

Naw dawg. First try. 1-chip SNES. With super mario world plus all stars. And three other common as shit games. 2004 goodwill find. $25. Say it ain't so. 5 tries my ass. And what's exactly wrong with the non-1-chip models?

[cacophony]

...

Any chance of the Super Nt getting support for translation patches? Those Super Famicom carts are significantly cheaper!

(eg. Mega Man X2 is ~$100, Rockman X2 is ~$20)

Edited January 28, 2018 by cacophony

[Atariboy]

I imagine if that capability happens, so will SD rom loading. So unless it uses an enhancement chip not supported within the FPGA itself (Such as perhaps Mega Man X2's CX10), it would be more expedient just to load an already patched rom from the SD card.

 

Of course I'm sure some appreciate playing off the cartridge, even if the game itself they're playing isn't a 1:1 match for what's on the rom chip of their cartridge. So even for regular cartridges, it would be a useful feature, I suppose.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Atariboy

[snatcher1996]

As for me, I have no NT mini so I have no horse in this race. I have an AVS and I can honestly say I've done nothing illegle with it.

 

I was referring specifically to NT Mini owners. I am sure there are people participating in the discussion, interested in the hardware and its creator who don't actually own a Mini. But is there a single owner of one in this thread, not employing the jailbreak hardware?

 

If I had intended to just play Nes games on my HDTV, I would have gotten an AVS too, but even then I wouldn't want to miss my Everdrive N8 to play noteworthy romhacks and translations. What I really like about nowadays retro development is what it offers me that wasn't possible at the time a console was in its prime. Unfortunately this means stepping into unlawful territory most of the time, but so be it. Nintendo specifically is thriving on the retro spark more than it is suffering from piracy, so I highly doubt they deem flashcarts and jailbreaks a threat to their business. NES Minis and SNES Minis are selling like hotcakes even though Analogue exists. Nintendo got a lot of negative press for their shutting down of AM2R but they could have done so years earlier. Instead they opted to let it exist by DoctorM64 releasing it.

 

I game exclusively on CRTs and already owned an RGB modded famicom. My desire to buy a Mini started when Kevtris began releasing his firmware updates with new cores being published on a weekly basis. Getting the opportunity to play consoles on a big screen in glorious RGB even though they were never designed for it in the first place was just too sweet to let it pass. Game Gear, Colecovision, Atari, maybe Intellivision in the near future and Atari Lynx at some point... Words cannot express how grateful I am for Kevtris' work. Not only did he design the hardware in the first place, he made the NT Mini a steal for 500$ for all it can do.

 

Nor do I demand neither do I expect the Super NT to be jailbreaked in the future with new cores being made available. Considering the quality Kevtris brought to the Mini, Analogue would be fools not to monetize on it after hiring him full time. Or maybe they permit him another "field test" for new cores to be made into new consoles at some point? If so, here is one of many additional buyers of a Super NT. Who knows, but the future should be interesting.

Edited January 28, 2018 by snatcher1996

[Wolf_]

 

I was referring specifically to NT Mini owners. I am sure there are people participating in the discussion, interested in the hardware and its creator who don't actually own a Mini. But is there a single owner of one in this thread, not employing the jailbreak hardware?

 

If I had intended to just play Nes games on my HDTV, I would have gotten an AVS too, but even then I wouldn't want to miss my Everdrive N8 to play noteworthy romhacks and translations. What I really like about nowadays retro development is what it offers me that wasn't possible at the time a console was in its prime. Unfortunately this means stepping into unlawful territory most of the time, but so be it. Nintendo specifically is thriving on the retro spark more than it is suffering from piracy, so I highly doubt they deem flashcarts and jailbreaks a threat to their business. NES Minis and SNES Minis are selling like hotcakes even though Analogue exists. Nintendo got a lot of negative press for their shutting down of AM2R but they could have done so years earlier. Instead they opted to let it exist by DoctorM64 releasing it.

 

I game exclusively on CRTs and already owned an RGB modded famicom. My desire to buy a Mini started when Kevtris began releasing his firmware updates with new cores being published on a weekly basis. Getting the opportunity to play consoles on a big screen in glorious RGB even though they were never designed for it in the first place was just too sweet to let it pass. Game Gear, Colecovision, Atari, maybe Intellivision in the near future and Atari Lynx at some point... Words cannot express how grateful I am for Kevtris' work. Not only did he design the hardware in the first place, he made the NT Mini a steal for 500$ for all it can do.

 

Nor do I demand neither do I expect the Super NT to be jailbreaked in the future with new cores being made available. Considering the quality Kevtris brought to the Mini, Analogue would be fools not to monetize on it after hiring him full time. Or maybe they permit him another "field test" for new cores to be made into new consoles at some point? If so, here is one of many additional buyers of a Super NT. Who knows, but the future should be interesting.

We'll find out soon but they would be fools to not allow it to be jailbroken. They would sell to a lot more with one console that could do everything for >$200 than they would with 15 different ones with identical internal hardware. The costs of making the cases for all those consoles would add up and some obviously wouldn't be popular on their own. I really hope they continue their policy of open ended use because that is what made drew me to their products in the first place and I can honestly say they would lose my business if they reversed that policy in a cash grab.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Wolf_

[snatcher1996]

We'll find out soon but they would be fools to not allow it to be jailbroken. They would sell to a lot more with one console that could do everything for >$200 than they would with 15 different ones with identical internal hardware. The costs of making the cases for all those consoles would add up and some obviously wouldn't be popular on their own. I really hope they continue their policy of open ended use because that is what made drew me to their products in the first place and I can honestly say they would lose my business if they reversed that policy in a cash grab.

 

Why do so many people here believe, that the only alternative to Kevtris releasing every finished and possible future core for free, would be something so unlikey as for Analogue to create a fully fledged system with a different case but identical hardware for each of those? Possibly because having everything for free would be in their favour?

 

It really doesn't take too much imagination, to think of alternative ways, how they could distribute additional system cores. I wouldn't mind paying for those, I wished to add to my Super NT if I ordered one. Perhaps Analogue could come up with a portal on their site, where you would buy necessary files to do the upgrade, which would only work with your unit, so nobody could share them online. You could buy the Super NT as a SNES only and it would only do that, or you would have to register your unit on their site, with your unit number and they would have a process ready to create update files for your system specifically.

 

What many people in this thread really seem to underestimate, is the value that Kevtris gave each of us basically for nothing: a decade's worth of work of a highly trained and skilled engineer. Do your own research to see what that amounts to. Not only should he benefit financially from every unit Analogue sells, but also from every core someone adds to their Super NT. And just because we were granted all that stuff for our NT Mini for free before doesn't make it a cash grab, if the creator or the company he partners with decides to get paid for his hard work. Nobody is entitled to have all that stuff for free, even if they got it before. Instead, we should be thankful and not feel entitled to have it ported to the next system as well, which is clearly not marketed as the visionary gaming platform this thread got started with, but a SNES only.

Edited January 28, 2018 by snatcher1996

[Hexadron]

Why do so many people here believe, that the only alternative to Kevtris releasing every finished and possible future core for free, would be something so unlikey as for Analogue to create a fully fledged system with a different case but identical hardware for each of those? Possibly because having everything for free would be in their favour?

 

It really doesn't take too much imagination, to think of alternative ways, how they could distribute additional system cores. I wouldn't mind paying for those, I wished to add to my Super NT if I ordered one. Perhaps Analogue could come up with a portal on their site, where you would buy necessary files to do the upgrade, which would only work with your unit, so nobody could share them online. You could buy the Super NT as a SNES only and it would only do that, or you would have to register your unit on their site, with your unit number and they would have a process ready to create update files for your system specifically.

 

What many people in this thread really seem to underestimate, is the value that Kevtris gave each of us basically for nothing: a decade's worth of work of a highly trained and skilled engineer. Do your own research to see what that amounts to. Not only should he benefit financially from every unit Analogue sells, but also from every core someone adds to their Super NT. And just because we were granted all that stuff for our NT Mini for free before doesn't make it a cash grab, if the creator or the company he partners with decides to get paid for his hard work. Nobody is entitled to have all that stuff for free, even if they got it before. Instead, we should be thankful and not feel entitled to have it ported to the next system as well, which is clearly not marketed as the visionary gaming platform this thread got started with, but a SNES only.

Well said, I agree 100%. This will be my first FPGA console (although I have been following for quite some time). I truly agree that Kevtris and Analogue should be compensated for their work. Many think we are entitled to these jailbroken firmware, but I disagree. If it cost me ~150-$200 for each physical FPGA console, i'm on board. If Analogue rather find alternatives such as a software core update w/ corresponding cartridge adaptor - count me in (although I would not be willing to pay as much for software without a new console).

 

Not many people balked at Nintendo for using the same internals for their NES/SNES Classics and the sales prove it - albiet much is because "Nintendo" and a lot is because "Nostalgia" - but I don't see why the same can't be true for Analpogue and their FPGA consoles. I would love to have a physical collection of FPGA alternatives to get pixel-perfect hardware emulation on my HDTV and to ensure these games and the systems to play them on last many many years.

 

As some have mentioned before as well, it takes a lot of time, money and effort to get a retro console working with a modern HDTV, and these Analogue consoles really come at a steal compared to mods, upscalers and cables - not to mention the console itself!

 

Anyways, just wanted to throw in my $0.02 and state that i'm super excited to get my shipping confirmation next week!

Edited January 28, 2018 by Hexadron

[Andromeda Stardust]

I imagine if that capability happens, so will SD rom loading. So unless it uses an enhancement chip not supported within the FPGA itself (Such as perhaps Mega Man X2's CX10), it would be more expedient just to load an already patched rom from the SD card.

 

Of course I'm sure some appreciate playing off the cartridge, even if the game itself they're playing isn't a 1:1 match for what's on the rom chip of their cartridge. So even for regular cartridges, it would be a useful feature, I suppose.

If it becomes possible to patch games with expansion chips, then it will become possible to simply load a donor cart and play another Rom that uses the chip. I know this is possible for DSP-1, not sure about sa-1 or fx. Then there is the severe performance penalty for using a fx1 donor like Starfox to play an fx-2 rom like yoshi's island. Yoshi may not like running at half the clock speed, of visa versa for starfox running at 2x.

[Wolf_]

 

Why do so many people here believe, that the only alternative to Kevtris releasing every finished and possible future core for free, would be something so unlikey as for Analogue to create a fully fledged system with a different case but identical hardware for each of those? Possibly because having everything for free would be in their favour?

 

It really doesn't take too much imagination, to think of alternative ways, how they could distribute additional system cores. I wouldn't mind paying for those, I wished to add to my Super NT if I ordered one. Perhaps Analogue could come up with a portal on their site, where you would buy necessary files to do the upgrade, which would only work with your unit, so nobody could share them online. You could buy the Super NT as a SNES only and it would only do that, or you would have to register your unit on their site, with your unit number and they would have a process ready to create update files for your system specifically.

 

What many people in this thread really seem to underestimate, is the value that Kevtris gave each of us basically for nothing: a decade's worth of work of a highly trained and skilled engineer. Do your own research to see what that amounts to. Not only should he benefit financially from every unit Analogue sells, but also from every core someone adds to their Super NT. And just because we were granted all that stuff for our NT Mini for free before doesn't make it a cash grab, if the creator or the company he partners with decides to get paid for his hard work. Nobody is entitled to have all that stuff for free, even if they got it before. Instead, we should be thankful and not feel entitled to have it ported to the next system as well, which is clearly not marketed as the visionary gaming platform this thread got started with, but a SNES only.

Why do you believe that Kevtris doesn't gain any revenue from these cores? We don't know how he is paid (and it would also be rude to ask) but if he is paid based on a percentage of sales then making the product 8 times more popular would be a far better payout for him.

 

I am in no way saying Kevtris shouldn't be well compensated for his work, I simply said that Analogue would be wrong to attempt to bill us double, triple, quadruple, and ect for identical hardware with different code on it. Even if he isn't paid based on sales they could still simply pay him very well for all that he does. They would be very foolish not to considering all that he brings to the table.

 

Like I said, we'll find out soon but I don't want to believe that Analogue would pull a complete 180 and fall to the dark side like that.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I am in no way saying Kevtris shouldn't be well compensated for his work, I simply said that Analogue would be wrong to attempt to bill us double, triple, quadruple, and ect for identical hardware with different code on it. Even if he isn't paid based on sales they could still simply pay him very well for all that he does. They would be very foolish not to considering all that he brings to the table

Why not release a Genesis form factor, or Atari, with same internals? Nintendo did it with the Minis. I would definitely buy a Genesis and Atari version, with or without the jailbreak firmwares. If you disagree, you are under no obligation to buy it.

[Wolf_]

Why not release a Genesis form factor, or Atari, with same internals? Nintendo did it with the Minis. I would definitely buy a Genesis and Atari version, with or without the jailbreak firmwares. If you disagree, you are under no obligation to buy it.

They can by all means do that if they want to, but if they prevent code that is perfectly capable of being run on their console in an attempt to get people to pay $600 for something they could accomplish for $200 then that is not okay. Also they will sell less overall units because excellent products for $600 is not as good of a deal as a god tier product for under $200. People are literally killing each other right now because they can save $3 on some hazelnut spread...

 

It would be extremely foolish to say: "Yea what you already bought can totally do that, but we prevented it from being able to and if you want those features we're going to need 400 more dollars and you're going to have to buy the same thing 3 times and setup 3 consoles instead of just 1."

 

If all they want to do is have different shells for fans of different systems that is completely ok, but they were smarter than locking out cores on the nt mini and it would be a shame if they suddenly decided to cripple their own sales because yolo.

[F34R]

They can by all means do that if they want to, but if they prevent code that is perfectly capable of being run on their console in an attempt to get people to pay $600 for something they could accomplish for $200 then that is not okay. Also they will sell less overall units because excellent products for $600 is not as good of a deal as a god tier product for under $200. People are literally killing each other right now because they can save $3 on some hazelnut spread...

 

It would be extremely foolish to say: "Yea what you already bought can totally do that, but we prevented it from being able to and if you want those features we're going to need 400 more dollars and you're going to have to buy the same thing 3 times and setup 3 consoles instead of just 1."

 

If all they want to do is have different shells for fans of different systems that is completely ok, but they were smarter than locking out cores on the nt mini and it would be a shame if they suddenly decided to cripple their own sales because yolo.

I don't expect a core to be developed from scratch and then be just given to me to use on capable hardware. If they do a Genesis, and it's the same hardware, it's still completely different.

[Wolf_]

I don't expect a core to be developed from scratch and then be just given to me to use on capable hardware. If they do a Genesis, and it's the same hardware, it's still completely different.

Once again, I'm not saying Kevtris shouldn't be paid for his work. Simply that if Analogue were smart they would pay him based off sales, or simply extremely well/keep him on salary with a lot of development time so that he can continue to produce cores for them and he doesn't lose out as a result. There is a way to not be evil and pay your workers...

[F34R]

Once again, I'm not saying Kevtris shouldn't be paid for his work. Simply that if Analogue were smart they would pay him based off sales, or simply extremely well/keep him on salary with a lot of development time so that he can continue to produce cores for them and he doesn't lose out as a result. There is a way to not be evil and pay your workers...

I'm saying it from an Analogue point of view. I think they have a better outlook on selling systems, and not hoping for increase sales on a single system because of the possibility of more cores coming. I feel that's their line of thinking.

[Wolf_]

I'm saying it from an Analogue point of view. I think they have a better outlook on selling systems, and not hoping for increase sales on a single system because of the possibility of more cores coming. I feel that's their line of thinking.

If you're trying to say that selling 3 consoles for $600 is a better outlook than selling 1 console that does everything for under $200 and that will somehow be a better plan for them then that is just completely incorrect.

 

For most people, being around $200 makes it a luxury item, but still affordable. And if it is an amazing product that takes care of everything they want then they can justify the expense. Once they see that it is awesome and it lives up to the hype they develop brand loyalty and continue to shop with Analogue through new releases and revisions as they release better hardware over the years. They also tell/inform their friends about it by talking about it to them or having them play them on it and increase sales that way.

 

For $600 it is too expensive for an incredible amount of people that would have purchased it at $200 and as a result remains a niche fanatic item and never sells as well, or reaches the same word of mouth and just doesn't break into the casual crowd and of the few that do buy it most will not buy all 3 and only buy 1 anyways or at best the 2 that they like the most.

 

Imagine how many more copies the nt mini would have sold if it didn't cost literally $300 more to put an aluminum shell on it. I really want to believe Analogue learned from getting the feedback "great product but stupidly expensive" a few thousand times and won't take it to mean "Lower the costs and reduce the appeal" instead of just "lower the cost" like any sane person would interpret it.

[+eebuckeye]

It would be more than the core though for each system. The Genesis would have a Genesis cartridge port, Genesis controller and hopefully Genesis expansion options. You would be getting more than just the core. I could understand Analogue taking this approach with no problem.

[Wolf_]

It would be more than the core though for each system. The Genesis would have a Genesis cartridge port, Genesis controller and hopefully Genesis expansion options. You would be getting more than just the core. I could understand Analogue taking this approach with no problem.

As I said, as could I. For fans of the individual system, as long as they don't lock out the ability to have multiple cores on it that is completely fine.

[Hexadron]

I'm saying it from an Analogue point of view. I think they have a better outlook on selling systems, and not hoping for increase sales on a single system because of the possibility of more cores coming. I feel that's their line of thinking.

I think people tend to forget they are a business that wants to be profitable. I would think they stand to make more profit selling hardware versus core updates only. My thinking stems from what they would charge versus what people would pay for these software "updates". I know I wouldn't pay $150 to 'unlock' a new core.

 

If it's priced right, the core updates could be great. I just don't believe this is something they will take lightly, and will need to figure out what they think is best for them from a profitability standpoint.

 

Also as eebuckeye stated, there is much more than just software to think about. Cartridge slots, expansion sockets, and controller ports are all things I would think people want when emulating via FPGA. I guess moreso for the "fans" of the systems. I know I would like the options to play with original controllers and my own cartidges.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Hexadron

[snatcher1996]

Why do you believe that Kevtris doesn't gain any revenue from these cores? We don't know how he is paid (and it would also be rude to ask) but if he is paid based on a percentage of sales then making the product 8 times more popular would be a far better payout for him.

 

I am in no way saying Kevtris shouldn't be well compensated for his work, I simply said that Analogue would be wrong to attempt to bill us double, triple, quadruple, and ect for identical hardware with different code on it. Even if he isn't paid based on sales they could still simply pay him very well for all that he does. They would be very foolish not to considering all that he brings to the table.

 

Like I said, we'll find out soon but I don't want to believe that Analogue would pull a complete 180 and fall to the dark side like that.

 

Well, you could be right.

 

Maybe letting Kevtris port additional cores to the Super NT in form of an unofficial jailbreak to further raise interest after release is Analogue's idea after all. But why would they be hush hush about it and not outright tell us it's what they intend to do? Could they get in trouble officially announcing additional systems cores? From a legal viewpoint they would be in trouble with the Super Nintendo core already. I bet additional cores will be available for the Super NT at some point, but their distribution model might be something completely different, maybe really some kind of Core Store.

 

Also, I don't believe a rather small company like Analogue wants to have a product line of many systems which they all need to support to some degree, so I don't expect them to release the Super NT hardware in different form factors.

 

What I actually find troublesome with your reasoning is the unfounded belief, that any additional labour and its compensation on Kevtris' part adding value to the Super NT will be covered by the additional amount of systems Analogue will no doubt sell. I find this to be highly speculative and it could very well be wrong. In that case doesn't it occur to you that those costs might need to be forwarded to some degree to you, the customer who enjoys the benefit of Kevtris work? Would that be a 180° turn to the dark side then?

 

This will not be a popular opinion, but honestly I think every owner of a Super NT should pay some amount for additional cores, since all they bought in the first place was a Super Nintendo. There is no entitlement for more than that.

Edited January 28, 2018 by snatcher1996

[+eebuckeye]

But if it takes Kevtris a year to develop Analogue can not just give it away for people with older systems even thought Kevtris would be paid for his work. They would get no return on their investment.

[F34R]

If you're trying to say that selling 3 consoles for $600 is a better outlook than selling 1 console that does everything for under $200 and that will somehow be a better plan for them then that is just completely incorrect.

 

For most people, being around $200 makes it a luxury item, but still affordable. And if it is an amazing product that takes care of everything they want then they can justify the expense. Once they see that it is awesome and it lives up to the hype they develop brand loyalty and continue to shop with Analogue through new releases and revisions as they release better hardware over the years. They also tell/inform their friends about it by talking about it to them or having them play them on it and increase sales that way.

 

For $600 it is too expensive for an incredible amount of people that would have purchased it at $200 and as a result remains a niche fanatic item and never sells as well, or reaches the same word of mouth and just doesn't break into the casual crowd and of the few that do buy it most will not buy all 3 and only buy 1 anyways or at best the 2 that they like the most.

 

Imagine how many more copies the nt mini would have sold if it didn't cost literally $300 more to put an aluminum shell on it. I really want to believe Analogue learned from getting the feedback "great product but stupidly expensive" a few thousand times and won't take it to mean "Lower the costs and reduce the appeal" instead of just "lower the cost" like any sane person would interpret it.

Well, we'll see over the next year and a half if you're right. That's if they are doing anything past the Super NT right now.