FPGA Based Videogame System

[retro_fan]

After this is all over I am going to release my "findings" document with all sorts of fine SNES detail that I figured out over the course of the project.

It's so kind of you that you want to share this, thank you!!! I'm still wondering whether there ever will be a way in the future for you to release the source code and STILL get paid (for the hardware made/sold or support, I would have NEVER suggested that you should not get money for your marvellous work) -- that would be beyond awesome! Well, on the one hand we've got the sd2snes which even though it's open-source allows Krikzz to make some money, on the other hand there are these stories about the unauthorised use of emulators' source code. One has to consider everything... But there is no doubt that open-source is great for preservation and for inspiring people. BTW, what is your nickname doing on the list of MAME contributors [EDIT: Never mind, I found the explanation here]?

 

Why Nt minis composite signal is so bad quality?, original nes and famicom is much much better.

 

It is the exact reproduction of the NES composite. What do you mean exactly by "bad quality" here?

Edited January 29, 2018 by retro_fan

[cfillak]

It's so kind of you that you want to share this, thank you!!! I'm still wondering whether there ever will be a way in the future for you to release the source code and STILL get paid (for the hardware made/sold or support, I would have NEVER suggested that you should not get money for your marvellous work) -- that would be beyond awesome! Well, on the one hand we've got the sd2snes which even though it's open-source allows Krikzz to make some money, on the other hand there are these stories about the unauthorised use of emulators' source code. One has to consider everything... But there is no doubt that open-source is great for preservation and for inspiring people. BTW, what is your nickname doing on the list of MAME contributors?

 

 

It is the exact reproduction of the NES composite. What do you mean exactly by "bad quality" here?

He's asked this question before. IIRC he's running his NT Mini's composite through a Framemeister, which personally I don't get. Shouldn't you just be able to use HDMI and use an NTSC palette? I think he said he was from Eastern Europe and asked a question about the lack of a SECAM or Dendy/Famiclone video mode. It may be that the NT Mini Composite signal doesn't match what he remembers from back in the day, or maybe Eastern Europe tv's do something weird to NTSC composite signals or mess with the colors or something.

[Nomenclature]

Thanks for all you do Kevtris! Can't wait to get the clear model in my hands and put it through the ringer.

 

Couple of thoughts.

 

I doubt they'll revisit the NT mini. Once the inevitable core store gets ported by Kevtris or somebody else, the only need for it would be to play with original cartridges/controllers. Also I believe I read they are done doing stuff for the original nintendo.

 

Looking forward the next products will likely be a Neo Geo FPGA or a portable FPGA. Genesis already has amazing RGB and they're readily available for cheap, along with an OSSC which has a million other uses as well. If Analogue/Kevtris were to make a product that would include 32x and Sega CD core support, the FPGA would have to be more powerful (according to kevtris), and they would have to make a built-in CD drive on the product which they will likely never do, seeing as an ODE is the next logical step for the system. The flash carts are also 100% compatible and cheap compared to snes (50$ for cheapest model).

 

As for the TG16, the recently released SSD3 offers an ODE replacement which a potential Analogue TG16 does not, or at least cannot advertise (same reason they didn't advertise NT mini or Super NT cores ahead of time). And again, the same issue with CD drive hardware, which is obsolete. The market for Turbografx, even though it's a loved system, is gonna be much much smaller than any market for Nintendo, Super Nintendo, or even Genesis. And if it doesn't have CD ODE support, will definitely be a niche product at best, not really the direction Analogue is heading.

 

So this all leads to a potential Analogue NG (Neo Geo). A system which everyone wants, but very few have, due to cost limitations, extremely expensive carts, and even an extremely expensive flash cart. On top of that Analogue has an obvious love for the system as their first product was one. The market for such a product is huge, compared to the already saturated TG16 and Genesis markets, as I described.

 

As for the mobile FPGA idea, the only hangup I see here is how to make it so the cart slot accepts all the different handheld systems (GB/GBC/GG/NG Pocket/Lynx/etc), and the fact that current FPGA isn't strong/small/cheap enough to support the system everybody would want included which is GBA. So this idea is probably a couple years away, but would be a great one for them to pursue.

 

Just my thoughts, time will bare out whether I hit the mark or not on this. I for one can't wait to play the Super NT, and would be personally most excited for a potential Neo Geo option next.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Nomenclature

[Nomenclature]

I hope for the sake of smart business that "Ernest" put aside several thousand units for the 7th. Otherwise, once the reviews hit, you'll have tons of interested customers, and nothing to sell them. Any word on a timeframe for restocks since 2 of the 4 models are sold out?

 

Curious why anyone would be waiting for reviews at this point. It's a Kevtris product, he has a proven track record. The reviews will say it's everything you thought it was. And they'll be too early to answer the only question anyone really has, which is when/if we get the core store on it. I preordered day one, and am quite frankly very surprised they all haven't sold out already.

[brentonius]

So happy to hear Kevtris is getting paid and doing what he loves. Also great to see Analogue becoming a more mainstream company. Now Ill salivate over a possible future PC Engine (Analogue PCE or Analogue TG?) and Genesis (Analogue MD or Analogue GNS?). Neo Geo would be sweet too. Anyways I do look forward to collecting these New FPGA systems individually especially with the nice designs Ive seen from Analogue. Its a dream team isnt it? The future seems bright!

[cfillak]

Thanks for all you do Kevtris! Can't wait to get the clear model in my hands and put it through the ringer.

 

Couple of thoughts.

 

I doubt they'll revisit the NT mini. Once the inevitable core store gets ported by Kevtris or somebody else, the only need for it would be to play with original cartridges/controllers. Also I believe I read they are done doing stuff for the original nintendo.

 

Looking forward the next products will likely be a Neo Geo FPGA or a portable FPGA. Genesis already has amazing RGB and they're readily available for cheap, along with an OSSC which has a million other uses as well. If Analogue/Kevtris were to make a product that would include 32x and Sega CD core support, the FPGA would have to be more powerful (according to kevtris), and they would have to make a built-in CD drive on the product which they will likely never do, seeing as an ODE is the next logical step for the system. The flash carts are also 100% compatible and cheap compared to snes (50$ for cheapest model).

 

As for the TG16, the recently released SSD3 offers an ODE replacement which a potential Analogue TG16 does not, or at least cannot advertise (same reason they didn't advertise NT mini or Super NT cores ahead of time). And again, the same issue with CD drive hardware, which is obsolete.

 

So this all leads to a potential Analogue NG (Neo Geo). A system which everyone wants, but very few have, due to cost limitations, extremely expensive carts, and even an extremely expensive flash cart. On top of that Analogue has an obvious love for the system as their first product was one. The market for such a product is huge, compared to the already saturated TG16 and Genesis markets, as I described.

 

As for the mobile FPGA idea, the only hangup I see here is how to make it so the cart slot accepts all the different handheld systems (GB/GBC/GG/NG Pocket/Lynx/etc), and the fact that current FPGA isn't strong/small/cheap enough to support the system everybody would want included which is GBA. So this idea is probably a couple years away, but would be a great one for them to pursue.

 

Just my thoughts, time will bare out whether I hit the mark or not on this. I for one can't wait to play the Super NT, and would be personally most excited for a potential Neo Geo option next.

Just because the Genesis outputs RGB, doesn't mean people want to deal with buying SCART cables, waiting for HDRetrovision cables to come back in stock, testing whether or not their tv can accept 240p over Component, or looking into upscalers/line multipliers.

 

According to Wikipedia, the Neo Geo sold 980,000 units, and the Genesis sold ~33 million. While Genesis consoles are cheap, imo the reality of modern displays makes that fact kind of meaningless for the average user. I know some of Analogue's first products were Neo Geo products, and they obviously have love for that system, it seems like the direction they took with the Super NT points to more of a mass-market perspective. While I'm sure an FPGA Neo Geo would see success in it's own right, I think you may overestimate the market for it. It has a relatively small game library, with cartridges on ebay selling for hundreds of dollars. I've never seen a Neo Geo console or cartridge in real life (anecdotal, I know). Flash carts for Neo Geo are $400-500. What I'm getting at is if they sell an FPGA Neo Geo, without advertising a jailbreak, it's not likely that average folks will just have an old Neo Geo cart lying around like they would with SNES or Genesis carts, and they can't reasonably head to a thrift or retro shop and spend $20 bucks and pick up a few games.

 

As for CD and 32X, yeah I'd love to see an all-in-one FPGA implementation of the Sega Sandwich, but an Analogue "Mega NT" could have an expansion slot to plug into original Sega CD units, and if the shell is designed correctly and the FPGA core is actually accurate, I don't know if they could even prevent a 32X from being plugged in and working if they wanted to. The only issue with the 32X is the video mixing. We know the DAC is coming, and will be used on the super nt and "future analogue consoles". I'm assuming someone will create a D-Sub to 32X patch cable adapter to feed the analog video into the 32X. The problem then becomes feeding the 32X video back into the Mega NT for upscaling.

[leods]

There are tons of crappy Mega Drive clones out there that sell even though sound is terrible on them. I think a decent solution would sell too. Sure, an OSSC and a Mega Drive do a great job, but for this pricepoint of 190 dollars, a compatible, new, compact solution, with tons of options, is really great. I won't pretend I know about the market, what sells more and what sells less, but I'd buy a Mega NT, even though I have a Mega Drive and an OSSC.

[cfillak]

There are tons of crappy Mega Drive clones out there that sell even though sound is terrible on them. I think a decent solution would sell too. Sure, an OSSC and a Mega Drive do a great job, but for this pricepoint of 190 dollars, a compatible, new, compact solution, with tons of options, is really great. I won't pretend I know about the market, what sells more and what sells less, but I'd buy a Mega NT, even though I have a Mega Drive and an OSSC.

I'd buy one too. One thing that would be cool is if the Core Store comes to it, the Genesis' controller port is so generic that you'd be able to use original Atari controllers and paddles and stuff without adapters for all those old cores.

[Riptide]

 

Curious why anyone would be waiting for reviews at this point. It's a Kevtris product, he has a proven track record. The reviews will say it's everything you thought it was. And they'll be too early to answer the only question anyone really has, which is when/if we get the core store on it. I preordered day one, and am quite frankly very surprised they all haven't sold out already.

Personally I'm waiting for two reasons:

1. Minor issues can sometimes be fixed between 1st and 2nd run. I think the NT Mini had a cartridge flap change or something along those lines for the second round of units.

2. Out of principle I'm waiting to hear an official response from them as to why their shipping is so high. Tweeted at them and emailed support, still waiting.

Other reasons I can understand:

1. Some people just don't buy anything until they've read a review of the product.

2. Purchase decision might hinge on the jailbreak. I imagine a large number of people passed on the NT Mini due to its price. Maybe they really want that Atari 2600 core, but have no need for the analog output.

3. On the flip side some people could be waiting to see how good the DAC turns out to be.

[Nomenclature]

There are tons of crappy Mega Drive clones out there that sell even though sound is terrible on them. I think a decent solution would sell too. Sure, an OSSC and a Mega Drive do a great job, but for this pricepoint of 190 dollars, a compatible, new, compact solution, with tons of options, is really great. I won't pretend I know about the market, what sells more and what sells less, but I'd buy a Mega NT, even though I have a Mega Drive and an OSSC.

 

The MD clones are like 30$, not the same market at all.

 

You'd really buy an Analogue MD (NT means Nintendo) for 230$ shipped when you already have a mega drive and an ossc? I just don't see the point in owning both, but to each their own I guess.

 

Also, what happens when TerraOnion or someone else drops an ODE solution for the Sega CD before it comes out?

 

32x isn't really a selling point for much. Couple of decent titles not much else.

 

It just seems like a bad idea business-wise, but I guess we'll see.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Nomenclature

[HuckleCat]

 

Curious why anyone would be waiting for reviews at this point. It's a Kevtris product, he has a proven track record. The reviews will say it's everything you thought it was. And they'll be too early to answer the only question anyone really has, which is when/if we get the core store on it. I preordered day one, and am quite frankly very surprised they all haven't sold out already.

 

Because most people don't know about this. In this case especially, reviews = advertising. On the 7th, the core of people who read the larger scale gaming sites (like Gamespot, or Kotaku, for example) will likely be all for it. (An audience that will have no idea what you mean by "core store" or who Kevtris is, btw.) Understand, you're the minority here. You might be super-excited for it, but the fact of the matter is that in 10 days, way, way more people will know about this, and it looks like there won't be any available.

 

In your defense though, I'm assuming Analogue is in this for the business of making money, and not to only appease a small niche audience. I'm also assuming that this will be much more successful since 189.99 is a much more reasonable price than 500.00. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

 

So, yeah, hopefully they put some aside, or have a big restock on the way.

[Nomenclature]

 

Because most people don't know about this. In this case especially, reviews = advertising. On the 7th, the core of people who read the larger scale gaming sites (like Gamespot, or Kotaku, for example) will likely be all for it. (An audience that will have no idea what you mean by "core store" or who Kevtris is, btw.) Understand, you're the minority here. You might be super-excited for it, but the fact of the matter is that in 10 days, way, way more people will know about this, and it looks like there won't be any available.

 

In your defense though, I'm assuming Analogue is in this for the business of making money, and not to only appease a small niche audience. I'm also assuming that this will be much more successful since 189.99 is a much more reasonable price than 500.00. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

 

So, yeah, hopefully they put some aside, or have a big restock on the way.

 

 

If the stock numbers were any indication (before they changed the cart checkout), they've already sold at least 15,000 units (each color had 5,000 available initially and two sold out). Not exactly niche. I'm sure they will be making these as fast as they can, it's definitely a mass market product as opposed to the NT Mini.

 

I'm just saying if you're looking at threads like this and playing wait and see for February 7th reviews, time to jump on it. If you're waiting to see if the core store comes out for it, it's completely understandable. If the core store doesn't come out for it in the first couple of months, I'll probably just sell mine off personally as I already have SD2SNES, Modded Jr & OSSC.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Nomenclature

[Sho]

 

Curious why anyone would be waiting for reviews at this point. It's a Kevtris product, he has a proven track record. The reviews will say it's everything you thought it was. And they'll be too early to answer the only question anyone really has, which is when/if we get the core store on it. I preordered day one, and am quite frankly very surprised they all haven't sold out already.

 

I was thinking the same thing. However people will be people -- some will be skeptical regardless of knowing the track record. By the time the 7th hits all of the models will be completely sold out and people will be SOL for a few months or so.

 

I just feel sorry for those gamers who have no clue how good this console is going to be. Not everyone follows closely to the retro scene as we do.

[Wolf_]

 

Because most people don't know about this. In this case especially, reviews = advertising. On the 7th, the core of people who read the larger scale gaming sites (like Gamespot, or Kotaku, for example) will likely be all for it. (An audience that will have no idea what you mean by "core store" or who Kevtris is, btw.) Understand, you're the minority here. You might be super-excited for it, but the fact of the matter is that in 10 days, way, way more people will know about this, and it looks like there won't be any available.

 

In your defense though, I'm assuming Analogue is in this for the business of making money, and not to only appease a small niche audience. I'm also assuming that this will be much more successful since 189.99 is a much more reasonable price than 500.00. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I doubt it.

 

So, yeah, hopefully they put some aside, or have a big restock on the way.

Also there is this revolutionary new thing that few people have ever heard of, I hear Analogue likes to implement it. In some circles it is referred to in hushed whispers as... the pre-order! It allows people to order things while they are out of stock, insane I know, but in this modern age (sometime roughly since cavemen discovered the ability to make symbols on walls) we have had the ability to record events, like if someone places an order, and rumor has it this "pre-order" technology makes it possible so that you can order something and the company will remember it until that order can be filled, and then... it ships! Insane I know, but give it a try.

 

[HuckleCat]

Also there is this revolutionary new thing that few people have ever heard of, I hear Analogue likes to implement it. In some circles it is referred to in hushed whispers as... the pre-order!

 

Ah, you mean like what they're doing with the NT Mini, right?

 

Oh, wait...

 

While I may not have gone for a masters degree, I'm pretty sure "Out of Stock" does not mean the same as "Pre-Order".

 

Look dude, if you're going to try and be a smart ass, be smart.

[Wolf_]

They're probably waiting for every model to sell out before they open pre orders. Also they might not open them immediately after. It isn't hard to figure this out if you have an iq over 10. Also the nt mini has had preorders.

[Flojomojo]

I just feel sorry for those gamers who have no clue how good this console is going to be. Not everyone follows closely to the retro scene as we do.

 

If it's as good as we hope it will be, the word of mouth will follow --- and the complaining that $200 is still too much. The cheap clones aren't going to stand still though.

[LewisD]

If Analogue does indeed decide to make a FPGA Neo Geo, I hope they consider making an optional JAMMA adapter to plug it into an arcade cabinet.

[HuckleCat]

I'm not very good at handling being wrong.

 

It's ok, it happens.

[Wolf_]

 

It's ok, it happens.

So far you've suggested they not sell their entire stock when they could just so they could have reserve units to sell after the review, and that I'm dumb for saying Analogue will use pre-orders like they have in the past (or just wait for them to come in stock again), and your reasoning for me being wrong is because they haven't opened pre-orders while they still have consoles in stock. For the love of god you're thick. Now please stop.

[RadikusRLZ]

It is the exact reproduction of the NES composite. What do you mean exactly by "bad quality" here?

No it is not, I test it with Framemeister, there is very very bad noise problem on NTSC picture and PAL signal is not working at all. Why they lie to us ?

Edited January 29, 2018 by RadikusRLZ

[Nomenclature]

No it is not, I test it with Framemeister, there is very very bad noise problem on NTSC picture and PAL signal is not working at all. Why they lie to us ?

 

A better question is why are you using composite with a Framemeister? lol.

[cfillak]

 

The MD clones are like 30$, not the same market at all.

 

You'd really buy an Analogue MD (NT means Nintendo) for 230$ shipped when you already have a mega drive and an ossc? I just don't see the point in owning both, but to each their own I guess.

 

Also, what happens when TerraOnion or someone else drops an ODE solution for the Sega CD before it comes out?

 

32x isn't really a selling point for much. Couple of decent titles not much else.

 

It just seems like a bad idea business-wise, but I guess we'll see.

I highly doubt there will be an ODE solution for the Sega CD that actually replaces the entire Sega CD unit. That would essentially be an entire FPGA system simulating the Sega CD's 68K processor and all of its other components. AFAIK the Super SD System 3 can replace the PCE-CD/TurboCD unit because they are basically just a CD interface for the PCE/TG-16 but with a bit of extra RAM I think. The only company I have heard mention the possibility of work on an ODE for Sega CD, as in replacing the optical drive on a Sega CD with some device that emulates the CD drive and reads SD cards (and still needs to be plugged into a Genesis unit), is the PS-IO guys in their forum.

 

Most people don't know what an OSSC is, and many people who own an original Genesis may see value in a self-contained unit that has high quality HDMI output.

[Wolf_]

No it is not, I test it with Framemeister, there is very very bad noise problem on NTSC picture and PAL signal is not working at all. Why they lie to us ?

Option 1) Kevtris, who has had his products reviewed by the pickiest of the picky is lying/doesn't know what you are doing

Option 2) Your unit is defective or not configured properly

Option 3) Your xrgb mini is defective or not configured properly

Option 4) Your tv is defective or not configured properly

Option 5) Your cables are defective or not wired properly

Option 6) The guy taking a console with hdmi out and instead using the lowest quality analogue out to a hdmi upscaler + converter that costs an additional $400 and adds 2 frames of lag to get a laggy, cruddy, digitized composite signal instead of using the pure digital hdmi signal he could have just gotten out of the console doesn't know what he is doing.

 

That's a tough one.

[RadikusRLZ]

 

A better question is why are you using composite with a Framemeister? lol.

 

For testing to see, what they lie to us.