FPGA Based Videogame System

[F34R]

I had most of their older controllers except for the SFC/SNES style and I was impressed with them. I had assumed their SFC/SNES pads were just as good. Seeing “2.4GHz” molded into the plastic of the D-pad tells me that they changed something (why else distinguish it?) and I assumed that change was what caused the problems. Hearing that they both have problems is disappointing.

 

Nintendo did improve in this aspect with the SNES Classic Edition D-pad when compared to the NES Classic Edition but, unlike the NES CE, SNES CE can’t do a board swap with an original SNES controller.

What's the improvement? I like the original controllers for the NES/SNES vs the new CE releases respectively.

[Beer Monkey]

Nintendo did improve in this aspect with the SNES Classic Edition D-pad when compared to the NES Classic Edition but, unlike the NES CE, SNES CE can’t do a board swap with an original SNES controller.

 

Huh. I assumed the SNES CE was the same as a Club Nintendo SFC controller. I board swapped one of those.

[CZroe]

What's the improvement? I like the original controllers for the NES/SNES vs the new CE releases respectively.

The pivot on the bottom of the D-Pad is too small causing diagonals to register even when you are only pressing one direction. It’s an extremely common problem with 3rd party controllers and, indeed, some first party controllers (NES Classic Edition).

 

You can swap the entire PCB of an NES Classic Edition controller into an original NES-004 controller and it completely fixes the problem.

 

You can sum it up as:

“Overly-sensitive diagonals.”

Edited February 18, 2018 by CZroe

[CZroe]

 

Huh. I assumed the SNES CE was the same as a Club Nintendo SFC controller. I board swapped one of those.

Me too. I checked hours after the midnight launch and was disappointed to find out that wasn’t the case. I somehow bungled the upload and it went in fast-forward:

https://youtu.be/2xFVV6QXWyc

Perhaps you can slow it down with YouTube controls.

 

There are no pivot/hinge pins for the L & R buttons. Just thick plastic pegs molded on to the buttons. Even if you transfer those with the shell, it still won’t swap. The whole controller feels very close to the original though.

Edited February 18, 2018 by CZroe

[Toth]

Huh. I assumed the SNES CE was the same as a Club Nintendo SFC controller. I board swapped one of those.

Nope. The club Nintendo controller is much more like the original. The rubber pads were even the same color and design. The R and L button are also like the old controllers in that they use a metal pin too hold it on. The new classic controllers used a board with holes in different spots, different rubber for the buttons that isn't directly swappable and the R and L buttons are a single piece of plastic held in by the shape of the plastic rather than a metal pin. They are probably cheaper to make but it is disappointing considering they had already designed and produced that club Nintendo controller.

[CZroe]

Nope. The club Nintendo controller is much more like the original. The rubber pads were even the same color and design. The R and L button are also like the old controllers in that they use a metal pin too hold it on. The new classic controllers used a board with holes in different spots, different rubber for the buttons that isn't directly swappable and the R and L buttons are a single piece of plastic held in by the shape of the plastic rather than a metal pin. They are probably cheaper to make but it is disappointing considering they had already designed and produced that club Nintendo controller.

Is it possible that the Club Nintendo controller uses the original molds? My understanding is that they kept producing them for the South American market until around the time they introduced the loyalty/rewards program in the USA (with the Zelda CE offer). The Wii launched a couple years later so it’s not like they were out of production for terribly long.

 

Actually, the late South American controllers were the cost-reduced SHVC/SNS-101 style with both logos on the back and the Nintendo logo molded on the front. I’d hope the Club Nintendo one was more like the older style with the screen printed region-specific logo. Was it?

 

Edit: Forgot to mention that I’ve seen white, gray, and brown D-Pad rubber membranes in original SNES/SFC controllers so Nintendo doesn’t seem to have been 100% consistent with that.

Edited February 18, 2018 by CZroe

[F34R]

The pivot on the bottom of the D-Pad is too small causing diagonals to register even when you are only pressing one direction. It’s an extremely common problem with 3rd party controllers and, indeed, some first party controllers (NES Classic Edition).

 

You can swap the entire PCB of an NES Classic Edition controller into an original NES-004 controller and it completely fixes the problem.

 

You can sum it up as:

“Overly-sensitive diagonals.”

I misunderstood the previous post. I thought you were talking about the old, original nes/snes controllers. My fault.

[jamon1567]

OHAIGUYS. Finished my video on the subject:

 

 

D-pad swap pretty much resolves the issue with unintended diagonals. You can probably put a sticker or something underneath the old D-pad if you don’t have an original lying around. Let me know if that works out for anyone.

 

Thanks, I was thinking of trying this myself. I have one of their original SNES pads that's worked well for me, but when I was playing Kickle Cubicle the other day with the new pad I was all over the place. It works fine for some games, but not for others. It seems like the new d-pads are raised a little bit from just eyeballing it.

[jamon1567]

The short answer is that scanlines provide a smoothing effect on the image by breaking it up so your eye doesn't see all the hard edges, but it goes much deeper than that into proper aspect ratios and resampling and all kinds of stuff. This is a good article to give a read if you are interested in more info:

https://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-Aspect-Ratios-Scanlines-and-Modern-Displays

 

 

 

 

Wow, Ryu looks like trash in the one without the scanlines. Like it's lower resolution or something.

Edited February 18, 2018 by jamon1567

[jamon1567]

I just wanna mention something here. I don't know if I just got a really good unit or what, but the cartridge slot in the Super NT is awesome. The NT Mini was very picky, but I've not had to reinsert a single cart (and I've tested quite a few) into the Super NT, which is awesome and better than the 1Chip and Mini that I have. I don't find it to be difficult to remove games either, although it's nice and snug which I think is good. Very happy about this aspect, even if I'll be using the jailbreak here when that all get's sorted

[F34R]

I just wanna mention something here. I don't know if I just got a really good unit or what, but the cartridge slot in the Super NT is awesome. The NT Mini was very picky, but I've not had to reinsert a single cart (and I've tested quite a few) into the Super NT, which is awesome and better than the 1Chip and Mini that I have. I don't find it to be difficult to remove games either, although it's nice and snug which I think is good. Very happy about this aspect, even if I'll be using the jailbreak here when that all get's sorted

My opinion, while it's working mostly fine, it seems just too shallow; like it barely inserts. I've only had a problem if I purposely wiggle the cartridge in the system while it is playing, but still it just feels barely in there.

[jamon1567]

My opinion, while it's working mostly fine, it seems just too shallow; like it barely inserts. I've only had a problem if I purposely wiggle the cartridge in the system while it is playing, but still it just feels barely in there.

 

Yea, I see what you're saying, but I don't know if it's really an issue as long as they're being read. The NT Mini was a PITA to get it to read cartridges, at least my unit was, so I'm thankful for this. Every time I boot up the Super NT there is a moment where I wait in anticipation to see if the cartridge actually starts, and every single time it does.

[bozo55]

My opinion, while it's working mostly fine, it seems just too shallow; like it barely inserts. I've only had a problem if I purposely wiggle the cartridge in the system while it is playing, but still it just feels barely in there.

 

I've only tried clean carts, but it works perfectly for me. I purposely rocked the cart back and forth and couldn't get it to crash. But when I clean my carts, I take them apart and use alcohol and a pencil eraser. I make sure the carts are 100% clean.

[Forsaken]

Hi @kevtris !

The Super NT is awesome! This is the ultimate SNES, and when the rest of the bugs are ironed out it will probably be the last SNES I will ever need to buy

However, I have a few feature requests

 

1. Would it be possible to have a RGB color range setting like: Full (0-255) or Limited (16-235) like you have on the Nintendo Switch, Xbox etc?

2. Would it be possible to have an audio bitrate option like, 32 kHz (native), 44,1 kHz or 48kHz ? Maybe also the ability to select 16 or 24 bit?

Are you simulating the SNES's DSP in native 32 kHz internally and resampling to 48kHz? My receiver shows 48 kHz from the Super NT.

3. Simulation of the "real" non-linear RGB gamma ramps for the different video DACs sounds awesome!

4. Have you looked at what kind of HDMI device the Nintendo Switch / XBox / PS4 etc. are identifying themselves as? Are you sure "PC" is the right one? I though there was a special device type for gaming devices.

This will also tell the TV/Monitor to bypass most of the internal image processing to reduce input lag. Maybe this only applies to newer HDMI 2.0 standard? I'm not an expert on this... I guess a HDMI signal analyzer would be able

to tell what other gaming consoles are doing..

 

Hope this will make it into the firmware someday

 

Keep up the good work!!

When you get into such detail as simulating the actual non-linearity of the DACs, you shouldn't forget that CRTs are non-linear too. You may as well attempt to recreate the entire system as closely as possible, from DAC to CRT.

[F34R]

 

Yea, I see what you're saying, but I don't know if it's really an issue as long as they're being read. The NT Mini was a PITA to get it to read cartridges, at least my unit was, so I'm thankful for this. Every time I boot up the Super NT there is a moment where I wait in anticipation to see if the cartridge actually starts, and every single time it does.

I just stopped using my carts in the NT Mini. Perfectly new looking carts, working in two different original NES systems, just simply wouldn't read properly in the NT Mini.

 

 

I've only tried clean carts, but it works perfectly for me. I purposely rocked the cart back and forth and couldn't get it to crash. But when I clean my carts, I take them apart and use alcohol and a pencil eraser. I make sure the carts are 100% clean.

Same. Mine all look "new". It's not too big a deal as long as they are working while sitting in the slot. It's no where near the problem I have with my NT Mini. I tested 12 different carts, let the sit and run while I walked by the console, and jumped, no problems. I had to physically rock it back and forth to get it to crash. Like I said, it just feels like it's a perfect fit, and not a mm more than it needs.

 

edit:

Hmm.. just put a cart in my snes jr, and the original snes. The jr felt the same as the SNT, and the OG felt an ever so slight difference. /shrugs Maybe it's just placebo.

[D3ltax55]

Can anyone confirm if the FX multicart is working on the super nt. I am wanting to order it, even thou it's back ordered. Don't want to get it if it's not working on the super nt.

[Kismet]

The short answer is that scanlines provide a smoothing effect on the image by breaking it up so your eye doesn't see all the hard edges, but it goes much deeper than that into proper aspect ratios and resampling and all kinds of stuff. This is a good article to give a read if you are interested in more info:

https://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/660-Aspect-Ratios-Scanlines-and-Modern-Displays

 

 

 

 

The problem there, is that pixel art made for LCD screens (That middle image set is from a sonic-clone called Freedom Planet) is not designed with the color palette of the game systems that run on CRT's, so adding scanlines to anything but 8-bit systems tends to do the opposite and makes it look a way it was not intended to.

 

Hence, NES, C64, Sega Master System, Apple II, CGA/EGA, etc when you add scanlines to those systems, makes it look like the color palette is doubled. But CRT's never had "grids" like the scan lines create, rather those lines came from the interlaced resolution. Trinitron screens actually had VERTICAL lines. So the correct "CRT" result would require lines in both directions. Remember dot pitch?

 

What has happened though in the last two or so years are 4K monitors and with them, resolution-independent scaling. So the result of this is that the dot-pitch equivalent (measured now in ppi) is so far from CRT norms that you can actually get away with replicating the individual trinitron style output on it. If you have a 144dpi 4K screen, and are running a SNES at 256x224, that is equal to about 14.7 dpi on a 24" screen.

 

But to go back a minute, if you think scanlines look good, you need a nostalgia check and go play a NES/SNES on a 14" CRT and ask yourself if you really think that looks better. It tends to only ever really be the case with arcade CRT's which were significantly higher quality than the TV's we had in the 80's, even the 90's.

 

Like I understand peoples nostalgia for the way the CRT looked, but then we have the other end of the spectrum of people who think the 8-bit style retro graphics look gaudy and try to use scalers on them to give them more resolution than they actually have, and then we have 3D cards and junky LCD monitors that apply linear filters to non-native scaling.

 

My opinion is that the original graphics do not need to be improved by filtering or scanlines. If it happens that the aspect ratio correction makes the pixels look too fat, then you've been playing with software emulators too long. But you can still turn that off. The original hardware didn't generate scanlines. The original hardware was plugged into CRT's of varying quality, so no two people will have the same fondness for scanlines, and to each their own.

 

But if you upload anything to youtube with scanlines, you've gone a little too far, because that is trying to give someone else your experience using your tastes, if youtube doesn't turn it into muddy blurs.

[jamon1567]

 

I've only tried clean carts, but it works perfectly for me. I purposely rocked the cart back and forth and couldn't get it to crash. But when I clean my carts, I take them apart and use alcohol and a pencil eraser. I make sure the carts are 100% clean.

 

I do the same, but I still have hiccups with original hardware and the Mini was just forget about it....

[jamon1567]

Can anyone confirm if the FX multicart is working on the super nt. I am wanting to order it, even thou it's back ordered. Don't want to get it if it's not working on the super nt.

 

I believe someone (perhaps a couple people) said it was working some pages back. Try doing a search on the thread.

[Toth]

Is it possible that the Club Nintendo controller uses the original molds? My understanding is that they kept producing them for the South American market until around the time they introduced the loyalty/rewards program in the USA (with the Zelda CE offer). The Wii launched a couple years later so it’s not like they were out of production for terribly long.

Actually, the late South American controllers were the cost-reduced SHVC/SNS-101 style with both logos on the back and the Nintendo logo molded on the front. I’d hope the Club Nintendo one was more like the older style with the screen printed region-specific logo. Was it?

Edit: Forgot to mention that I’ve seen white, gray, and brown D-Pad rubber membranes in original SNES/SFC controllers so Nintendo doesn’t seem to have been 100% consistent with that.

The club Nintendo one has the printed logo on the front, not the molded logo. The back is molded though. No stickers. The dpad rubber is the brown one. Edited February 18, 2018 by Toth

[Shadowgate]

Has there been any official news or word about the NT Mini being sold again? I keep seeing small talk about some lawsuit against 8BitDo for their controllers but I can't find much info just googling. Is this the popular theory about why the NT Mini isn't currently being sold? The bundled controllers lawsuit?

[Jakir]

 

The problem there, is that pixel art made for LCD screens (That middle image set is from a sonic-clone called Freedom Planet) is not designed with the color palette of the game systems that run on CRT's, so adding scanlines to anything but 8-bit systems tends to do the opposite and makes it look a way it was not intended to.

 

Hence, NES, C64, Sega Master System, Apple II, CGA/EGA, etc when you add scanlines to those systems, makes it look like the color palette is doubled. But CRT's never had "grids" like the scan lines create, rather those lines came from the interlaced resolution. Trinitron screens actually had VERTICAL lines. So the correct "CRT" result would require lines in both directions. Remember dot pitch?

 

What has happened though in the last two or so years are 4K monitors and with them, resolution-independent scaling. So the result of this is that the dot-pitch equivalent (measured now in ppi) is so far from CRT norms that you can actually get away with replicating the individual trinitron style output on it. If you have a 144dpi 4K screen, and are running a SNES at 256x224, that is equal to about 14.7 dpi on a 24" screen.

 

But to go back a minute, if you think scanlines look good, you need a nostalgia check and go play a NES/SNES on a 14" CRT and ask yourself if you really think that looks better. It tends to only ever really be the case with arcade CRT's which were significantly higher quality than the TV's we had in the 80's, even the 90's.

 

Like I understand peoples nostalgia for the way the CRT looked, but then we have the other end of the spectrum of people who think the 8-bit style retro graphics look gaudy and try to use scalers on them to give them more resolution than they actually have, and then we have 3D cards and junky LCD monitors that apply linear filters to non-native scaling.

 

My opinion is that the original graphics do not need to be improved by filtering or scanlines. If it happens that the aspect ratio correction makes the pixels look too fat, then you've been playing with software emulators too long. But you can still turn that off. The original hardware didn't generate scanlines. The original hardware was plugged into CRT's of varying quality, so no two people will have the same fondness for scanlines, and to each their own.

 

But if you upload anything to youtube with scanlines, you've gone a little too far, because that is trying to give someone else your experience using your tastes, if youtube doesn't turn it into muddy blurs.

You're over-complicating the matter. None of what you've said changes how the images look with or without scanlines. Ultimately the scanlines of today are just another filter. Either you think they look good or you don't like them and if you don't like them don't turn them on. But it is worth taking a look at how the image changes with them on because it usually makes things look a lot better.

 

And you can upload videos to youtube however you want, it is your video and you can have it reflect your preferences if you want. Just be aware that if you do upload videos to youtube the compression ratio is going to destroy the effect, also if they watch the video in some strange resized 1080p in a smaller windowed screen it is going to throw them all out of line.

[D3ltax55]

 

I believe someone (perhaps a couple people) said it was working some pages back. Try doing a search on the thread.

Alright thanks. I didn't see any topic's about this and this post has been going a bit fast after the super nt came out and not enough time to read it all.

I searched FX at least 6 or more pages didn't find anything.

Edited February 18, 2018 by D3ltax55

[Kismet]

But it is worth taking a look at how the image changes with them on because it usually makes things look a lot better.

 

 

You're making a subjective statement about a feature that nobody will agree on. We're talking about scanlines in 2018, in 2024 we might be talking about replicating the exact aperture grille of a CRT.

[CZroe]

Has there been any official news or word about the NT Mini being sold again? I keep seeing small talk about some lawsuit against 8BitDo for their controllers but I can't find much info just googling. Is this the popular theory about why the NT Mini isn't currently being sold? The bundled controllers lawsuit?

As far as I know, it’s just my brother and I speculating other than a few who have mentioned it in their responses.

 

I’m just reading between the lines. Nintendo turned a blind eye to all the counterfeit controllers for so long that you could even buy USB versions at Fry’s Electronics. Suddenly, it became a problem with the NES Classic Edition. I personally witnessed multiple people and retail employees who were duped by them or unwittingly telling other people that they were the official controller. Read several more accounts of the copies confusing people online where people often bought the wrong one. Then, almost as if in response, Nintendo registers controller design trademarks for the NES CE and SNES Classic Edition logos even before announcing the SNES CE. Soon after, 8bitdo discontinued every controller that was styled exactly like Nintendo’s (whether it had more buttons or not) and issued new designs with deliberately distinguishable colors/graphics.

 

When the Nt Mini stopped getting replenishments I was as confused as everyone else... until I went to update my 8bitdo NES30 and noticed that there was no mention of it on their site anywhere. Eventually, I realized that they retconned it to “N30” and purged the site of any pictures, making it very difficult to figure out that N30=NES30, especially with all the other “closely named but totally different” controllers, like NES30 Pro. They did similar for the SNES30.

 

Anyway, I recalled that the Analogue Nt Mini included the 8bitdo NES30 Retro Set with Retro Receiver. Since the controller is definitely discontinued, future productions of the Nt Mini will almost certainly have to include something else. I do expect future production runs or else they’d take it off the list of current products by now, I’d imagine. Perhaps they’re still deciding what to do in response to the Super Nt success.

 

I never suggested that any lawsuit or threat actually happened but I do believe a few “cease and desist” letters were sent out... or at least a polite warning/request.

Edited February 18, 2018 by CZroe