FPGA Based Videogame System

[Andromeda Stardust]

Post release the Super NT got 2 (two) firmware updates. 4.1, that broke more than it fixed, and 4.3 that fixed a lot and added/corrected it's extra features. 2, not 5. not sure where you got your number from.

 

Also, "He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week" No he isn't. There are bugs reported for longer than a week that haven't been fixed. So these things you said are just wrong. And I'm not even being nitpicky about it, it's just completely wrong.

 

Why are we having this discussion? What are you trying to defend?

 

"Everything they said about it was true.": "total accuracy" and "We spent thousands of hours engineering the system via FPGA for absolute accuracy."

 

So these two are true? Damn I wish they sold these fanboy glasses. I'd gladly wear them so I could live in fairy land, with the magic of the FPGA.

 

Listen. This discussion is useless. I will not mention the false advertisement from Analogue in this thread anymore. Promise. But you guys come in here saying things that are completely wrong. People come in the thread, read "SNES ASIC are all terrible", and they'll believe this bullshit. So please, before writing things that are just wrong, please either do research, or just don't write it. This doesn't help anyone.

Leods, what exactly is your problem? I swear some gamers just can't be pleased. I like you but your starting to come off as a perfectionist snob complaining about the .1% instead of enjoying the 99.9%. Nothing is every going to be truly perfdct, not even original hardware. I think Kevtris is doing a fantastic job.

[Kismet]

The Atari FlashBack 2 and C64DTV are two examples of ASIC clones done right.

 

I'm not sure I'd call those done right (three revisions a piece), but a licensed clone is at least held responsible for problems.

 

Unlicensed clones, are simply made to scam people out of their money, anyone selling them, assumes 100% of the risk, as the (chip) manufacturer is not going to be in business very long. Which is why Hyperkin (Retron) and Cybergadget (Retrofreak) both switched to SoC's and then stole open source emulators to run them.

 

This is where the AVS, NT Mini and Super NT simply beat the ASIC clones at their own game. Sure they're not as cheap, but the FPGA implementations can actually fix bugs.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Kismet

[RevQuixo]

Technically, the SuperNt doesn't output multi channel surround. Unlike DVDs or TV Broadcasts which provide DTS or Dolby Digital bitstreams for surround sound, its output format is just 2 channels, plain old PCM stereo. The surround information of games that support this is encoded within these two channels in a format called "Dolby Pro Logic". You may need to set up the receiver to treat PCM signals as Dolby Pro Logic (most older surround receivers have a surround mode setting).

 

The WiiU for example doesn't output DTS or DD, but multi channel PCM which the optical connection (more precisely the S/PDIF standard) isn't capable of.

 

Thanks, had to dig up an instruction manual, but found the Dolby Pro Logic setting..problem solved.

[CZroe]

One thing that I dont understand regarding Super NT and firmware.

 

If the hardware is replicated and reveresed engineered from an actual SNES, why does it have quirks with strange game like monopoly and so on?

 

If the games programmed wierd but still worked, why doesnt it work on the Super NT exactly like it would on the SNES?

Kevtris explained about Monopoly already. The game is actually running correctly. In order for the Super Nt to read your controllers for its own menus and such it obviously has to interface with them at the same time as the game. Something unexpected about the way Monopoly reads the controllers was crashing the Super Nt’s controller reading in a way that ultimately returned controller reads to the Super Nt menu only. Monopoly is programmed to act funny when it doesn’t see a controller, hence, the stuck animation loop.

 

In short:

The SNES side was fine. The controllers had a glitch. That glitch has been fixed.

[kwnage]

The system shuts itself down if you disconnect a, 8bitdo receiver, cause those draw a lot of power, and it's elecrtical protection taking place to protect the system. You're not actually supposed to plug stuff in and out with the system turned on. Don't plug and unplug controllers or carts without turning the console off first.

 

Original controllers seem to not really have this "issue", but even so, better to not plug and unplug like that.

Well that's simply not true. There's no harm in unplugging stuff while the system is on. Correct me if I'm wrong but i remember Kevtris saying it wouldn't hurt to insert or remove a cartridge while the system is running, in the latter case at least if it's not running a game from that cart. Even less so with the controllers.

I don't know why it would restart when unplugging an 8bitdo receiver, but I'll check if mine does it when I get home.

Edited February 27, 2018 by kwnage

[Forsaken]

Well that's simply not true. There's no harm in unplugging stuff while the system is on. Correct me if I'm wrong but i remember Kevtris saying it wouldn't hurt to insert or remove a cartridge while the system is running, in the latter case at least if it's not running a game from that cart. Even less so with the controllers.

I don't know why it would restart when unplugging an 8bitdo receiver, but I'll check if mine does it when I get home.

He said you shouldn't hotplug cartridges. It may not damage the SNT, but any cart with a save function may lose your save data if you hotplug it.

[Kismet]

Well that's simply not true. There's no harm in unplugging stuff while the system is on. Correct me if I'm wrong but i remember Kevtris saying it wouldn't hurt to insert or remove a cartridge while the system is running, in the latter case at least if it's not running a game from that cart. Even less so with the controllers.

I don't know why it would restart when unplugging an 8bitdo receiver, but I'll check if mine does it when I get home.

 

 

He said you shouldn't hotplug cartridges. It may not damage the SNT, but any cart with a save function may lose your save data if you hotplug it.

 

You're not supposed to hotplug anything with memory on it. So hotplugging carts is just asking to wipe the SRAM. If they're flash carts, you can also kill the flash chip.

 

Some games if you hotplug the controller, it still won't be recognized until you reset it.

[CZroe]

 

Yeah. I've seriosly criticsed Analogue's advertising of the Super NT. The truth is, it's just a clone console. Sure thing, Kevtris worked a lot, and yes, it's a good clone console, but it's reverse engineered just like any other emulator out there.

Emulators interprets code for a non-native platform. FPGAs replicate to original logic to run the code natively.

 

There’s a very big difference. Not “just like any other emulator out there.” If you want to call out people for truth in advertising it’s probably best that you avoid bombastic and untrue statements like this.

 

Kevtris seems to be able to iron out the bugs with time, so maybe one day everything will work flawlessly, but the whole advertisement from Analogue does imply the system is perfect, and runs exactly like a Super Nintendo does. And that is not true.

Some Super Nintendos don’t run exactly like other Super Nintendos (1chip). You wouldn’t say a 1chip isn’t a totally accurate Super Nintendo when it literally *IS* a genuine Super Nintendo. You holding this hardware to a higher standard than even Nintendo themselves did with their own 1chip.

 

It’s already more accurate than the 1chip and the clones (all clones are based on 1chip) and even replicates difference between launch systems and 2chip systems, so it’s easy to say that it’s accuracy is at least above a 1chip. Since the 1chip is a real Super Nintendo then it’s safe to say that it’s more accurate than even some Super Nintendo consoles. It’s safe to call it “accurate” if it can land square in the middle of the real hardware revisions.

 

How do SNES on a chip clones work? Is it basically the same as an FPGA except not reprogrammable?

The HW clones all use a gray market 1chip with the exact same problems as a real 1chip SNES.

 

They are ASIC based and I'm pretty sure everyone uses the same design that has been recycled for God knows how long. It was crap when it was first designed and still crap now. Just like the NOAC that has been floating around forever

It literally is Nintendo’s 1chip design.

 

Post release the Super NT got 2 (two) firmware updates. 4.1, that broke more than it fixed, and 4.3 that fixed a lot and added/corrected it's extra features. 2, not 5. not sure where you got your number from.

I thought mine came with 3.9 with 4.0 already available. There were a couple JB FWs as well but they weren’t made to fix things that weren’t already fixed in the main FW.

 

Also, "He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week" No he isn't. There are bugs reported for longer than a week that haven't been fixed. So these things you said are just wrong. And I'm not even being nitpicky about it, it's just completely wrong.

He’s usually fixed them within a day or two (well under a week). When you tried to argue against the Analogue and Kevtris’ claimed accuracy by using the compatibility drop in 4.1 against them, you made him test 4.2 in private and ultimately delayed those fixes until 4.3. Now you are using that delay against him even though you know good and well from following this thread that he still fixed those within a couple days. He’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t with people like you.

 

"Everything they said about it was true.": "total accuracy" and "We spent thousands of hours engineering the system via FPGA for absolute accuracy."

 

So these two are true? Damn I wish they sold these fanboy glasses. I'd gladly wear them so I could live in fairy land, with the magic of the FPGA.

Yes. They engineered it for absolute accuracy. It’s a design/engineering goal.

 

Listen. This discussion is useless. I will not mention the false advertisement from Analogue in this thread anymore. Promise. But you guys come in here saying things that are completely wrong.

It is “totally accurate” beyond any reasonable expectation Take any other product that claims total accuracy and look at it with the same level of scrutiny. To put it into perspective, you are way deeper than comparing a “totally accurate” copy of a car part with a micrometer. You are measuring the radioactive isotopes to see if the fabric was made from cotton grown in the right time period.

 

Will you also promise to stop using Color and Background tags? You only harm the readability of your post while wasting effort.

 

I dont know, but I think using "we spent thousands of hours" should mean, we hired a guy that spent thousands of hours engineering the FPGA.

 

I dont doubt the other team spent thousands of hours (marketing, designing, logistics, website), but they didn't reverse engineer the SNES.

 

 

Does anyones Super NT reboot if you disconnect the controller?

 

Anyhow, I love my Super NT.

“We” is collective, you know.

 

The system shuts itself down if you disconnect a, 8bitdo receiver, cause those draw a lot of power, and it's elecrtical protection taking place to protect the system. You're not actually supposed to plug stuff in and out with the system turned on. Don't plug and unplug controllers or carts without turning the console off first.

 

Original controllers seem to not really have this "issue", but even so, better to not plug and unplug like that.

A RetroBit dog bone does this on an original NES. I agree that the increased power draw of a wireless receiver is probably responsible in this case. Fun fact:

Nintendo engineered the locking mechanism of SFC/SNES after determining that inserting or removing the cartridge with the power on could conceivably blow the console’s fuse, but it seems that it caused even more problems in North America (people damaging consoles or injuring themselves). They removed it from later consoles (my 1993 unit didn’t have one) added a sticker telling users not to insert/remove when powered, and redesigned the North American cartridges to defeat the lock in earlier consoles.

 

I don’t think they ever removed the locking mechanism in the original SFC design. The only products I’ve seen outside North America that reflect this change are the Super Game Boy and Super Game Boy 2.

[trismegistus]

Huh, weird. Doesn't seem to show for me. The only toggle under Menu Options is Dim.

Does it show up for everyone else? I will try and reinstall the latest firmware tomorrow evening. Forgot my SD card adapter at work.

 

No worries, though. Everything else I used is there and I've gotten used to the default.

You're right... menu bounce isn't in my menu options either. Skin, highlight style, highlight color, font, dim game in menu... that's it. I never used it, so I didn't notice.

 

(BTW, I appreciate that SD card speed is now under hardware; it always seemed strange for that to be in the menu options.)

[Kismet]

A RetroBit dog bone does this on an original NES. I agree that the increased power draw of a wireless receiver is probably responsible in this case. Fun fact:

Nintendo engineered the locking mechanism of SFC/SNES after determining that inserting or removing the cartridge with the power on could conceivably blow the console’s fuse, but it seems that it caused even more problems in North America (people damaging consoles or injuring themselves). They removed it from later consoles (my 1993 unit didn’t have one) added a sticker telling users not to insert/remove when powered, and redesigned the North American cartridges to defeat the lock in earlier consoles.

 

I don’t think they ever removed the locking mechanism in the original SFC design. The only products I’ve seen outside North America that reflect this change are the Super Game Boy and Super Game Boy 2.

 

The locking mechanism is a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. My CPU-GPM-02 model has the locking mechanism. Despite that I wish the Super NT had a mechanical Eject mechanism/grip rather than this death-grip on the cart. This is the one thing that the NES cart design almost did right. What would have been right (IMO) would have been to make it so that when the cartridge is inserted, it pushes down on the eject levers (like it does on a real SNES), but instead pushes the eject button up by the same distance the cartridge went down. So when you push the eject button, it pushes it with enough force to pop it out of the slot, and when there's no cart, it's flush with the console. That would make the "power button" locking mechanism disengaged by the eject button, thus turning it off if the eject button was pressed.

 

Though it would have been an even easier engineering thing to simply do what we do with hot-pluggable devices now and stagger the ground/power pins so that the ground pins always make contact first, and voltage last, so that the power is turned on once the cart starts pulling power. Then if it's pulled out while the power is on, it doesn't zap the sram or flash.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Kismet

[romevi]

You're right... menu bounce isn't in my menu options either. Skin, highlight style, highlight color, font, dim game in menu... that's it. I never used it, so I didn't notice.

 

(BTW, I appreciate that SD card speed is now under hardware; it always seemed strange for that to be in the menu options.)

 

Oh, I wonder if it is gone, then.

 

Yeah, I figured not many would notice since most people don't seem to use it, but I did and couldn't find it.

 

Here is a picture of what my settings show (shared on NintendoAge too but this thread seems a lot more active):

 

[Toth]

I'd be real careful about supporting that Polymega system on Kickstarter. It seems eerily similar to all those other kickstarters that collect $1million+ then disappear from the face of the earth. Aren't they required to have some sort of working prototype or something before they can do a kickstarter now instead of renders?

Edited February 27, 2018 by Toth

[trismegistus]

 

Here is a picture of what my settings show (shared on NintendoAge too but this thread seems a lot more active):

 

Also weird that "font" has a checkbox next to it, considering it's not a toggle. Seems like maybe something got screwed up with that menu.

[nasta18]

Firmware 4.3 has been posted.

 

Changes include:

 

* Fixed Front Mission - Gun Hazard. This game did mid-frame HDMA enables and disables. Pocky and Rocky should be fixed too with this since it does that as well.

* Fixed Ninja Warriors

* Re-fixed the Mecarobot Golf fix, this should fix several random crashes.

* Fixed Uniracers 2 player mode, where player 2 hovered above the track.

* Partial fix on Front Mission - bottom of text box no longer moves, but the text sometimes does.

* Added individual RGB gamma sliders.

* Added "straight through" RGB when not using HQX scalers; this should fix the RGB issues people had. These are under the "scanlines" menu.

* Linearized the brightness steps for the overall screen brightness (PPU reg 2100 bits 0-3).

* Added limited RGB mode checkbox. This is under the "scalers" menu. Also now I am sending out "underscan" flags, and "IT content" flags which should force some monitors/TVs to disable overscan, and any filtering/processing (IT mode).

* Super Powerpak fixed - check "use launch system timing" box under the hardware menu if you wish to use one.

 

https://support.analogue.co/hc/en-us

 

 

That's awesome work.

Update fixed color issue.

I can not give enough credit for this. Thanks.

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by nasta18

[Great Hierophant]

Some comments on recent bug reports :

 

1. I played through Chrono Trigger to the point where Chrono, Lucca and Marle are sent to 2300AD, which is past the "Chrono is thrown in jail" point. I encountered no crashes or freezes. I did save and load a couple of times and tried rapidly switching to the menu and back more than once and I couldn't get the game to misbehave.

 

2. I tried both versions of Brandish 2 and did not experience any crashes. However, I have not yet tried Monopoly where the game didn't crash at Chance or Community Chest, so it is likely a random issue. Control in Brandish 2 is pretty weird at first, but you should be able to get used to it, so don't report "random teleporting" as a bug

 

3. Someone on my blog commented on graphical glitches on the first boss in Power Rangers with the jailbreak firmware. There are two Power Rangers side-scrolling beat-em-up games and I tried both of them. Neither first-level boss glitched for me.

 

All the above were done with an sd2snes and firmware v4.3.

 

4. The video LeoDS showed with Street Racer PAL is curious. Street Racer PAL/NTSC/JP no longer have the Super Scope detection issue. I noted he was using PAL SNES controllers, but they are identical to NTSC SNES controllers electrically (the same is not true about NES controllers). Then I noted that he backed up his game with the SuperUFO, but he did not show trying the backup with firmware v4.1 or 4.3. I also found it curious that his cart did not work in v3.9. I'm pretty sure that Street Racer will get you to the Super Scope screen in v3.9.

 

5. Yup, the menu bounce is gone, there should be a checkbox next to menu bounce, not font : https://youtu.be/PUwl2h_6Skc?t=230 It should return, hopefully in the next update.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Great Hierophant

[Riptide]

The HW clones all use a gray market 1chip with the exact same problems as a real 1chip SNES.

 

It literally is Nintendo’s 1chip design.

 

Seriously? Thats really interesting, I'd guess that the chinese factory nintendo had produce their chips didn't hold the design close to the vest.

If thats really true then the ASIC clones are as accurate as a 1-chip console (minus sound? that a different chip?) but are still considered garbage due to how they handle video? If you want analog you might as well just get the real thing, I say that as someone who plans on buying the DAC, but will admit that the vast majority of the "clone" market wants hdmi, which the clones that aren't the Super NT do terribly. I wonder why Analogue didn't just take the accurate 1-chip ASIC that already exists and get Kevtris to do the video? Maybe you can't do the video properly regardless if the ASIC is already outputting analog, so you'd need to reverse engineer and redesign the ASIC at which point we're back to using an FPGA and might as well reverse engineer an actual SNES.

 

tldr I think the other clones are considered shit due to bad video/audio rather than inaccuracies in the games themselves.

[retrair]

Has anyone attempted to backup/restore sram data from an sa-1 chip game or Yoshi’s Island using the Ufo pro 8?

MLiG did a video on the Pro 8 but would not test the sram saving on special chip games b/c of the risk of losing save game data. Just wondering if it’s possible as I’ve got a few games I’d like to change out the battery and would like to back up the sram before I do.

[kwnage]

 

 

 

You're not supposed to hotplug anything with memory on it. So hotplugging carts is just asking to wipe the SRAM. If they're flash carts, you can also kill the flash chip.

 

Some games if you hotplug the controller, it still won't be recognized until you reset it.

 

Granted, while it might not be the best idea to hotplug a cartridge, especially if it uses SRAM for saving, hotplugging controllers shouldn't hurt.

Just checked if my SuperNt would restart when unplugging one or both 8bitdo receivers: It keeps running, no issues.

[romevi]

 

Granted, while it might not be the best idea to hotplug a cartridge, especially if it uses SRAM for saving, hotplugging controllers shouldn't hurt.

Just checked if my SuperNt would restart when unplugging one or both 8bitdo receivers: It keeps running, no issues.

Mine shuts off when unplugging a controller, whether original or third-party.

No biggie; I just remember to shut it off before unplugging.

[kwnage]

Still weird, though. Does it happen with all games? What kind of power supply are you using?

Edited February 27, 2018 by kwnage

[cacophony]

So 3 frames of lag is the inaccuracy you mean? I though accuracy was how the system process the games. I didn#t hear bob say there were any major inaccuracies with the Supa Retron. I have watched this review you linked me about 3 times already. Yeah, it has 3 frames of lag, which is terrible, and smears the image because of poor image processing. It still outputs HDMI and composite at the same time, and seems to work just fine out of a CRT. So if this is all you can say, I guess we just don't agree on what accuracy means.

 

Yes, we'll have to disagree then. Accuracy is about how it processes the games and controller input. It's a video game system not a media player! Achieving identical (or at the very least close to original) input lag is probably the single most important aspect of system accuracy as far as I'm concerned.

[Sho]

So 3 frames of lag is the inaccuracy you mean? I though accuracy was how the system process the games. I didn#t hear bob say there were any major inaccuracies with the Supa Retron. I have watched this review you linked me about 3 times already. Yeah, it has 3 frames of lag, which is terrible, and smears the image because of poor image processing. It still outputs HDMI and composite at the same time, and seems to work just fine out of a CRT. So if this is all you can say, I guess we just don't agree on what accuracy means.

 

Can you find any game the Supa Retron isn't compatible with?

 

What is so bad about the ASIC in these SNES clones?

 

I'm not even saying these consoles are any good. I am just legitimately asking, because I don't know the answer to these questions.

 

But please, just answer if you have a concrete response to the question being made. This is borderline off-topic here, and I don't want to derail the discussion. What isn't off topic, is the fact that claiming "total accuracy" and "Absolute accuracy" on a system that can't even properly play all games in the licensed library is false advertisement. That has nothing to do with Kevtris and his amazing work on the Super NT. That has to do with Analogue and their PR people. So when someone comes in here, and doesn't understand why the system doesn't replicate the Super Nintendo's behaviour, when it was claimed it was total and completely accurate, it's easy to understand where that comes from. It comes from a correct understanding of Analogue's own claims. Claims that are false. I don't even understand what there is to discuss about it.

 

I think it's perfectly fine to go after Analogue for false advertisement as you are doing. However, you really should research each and every other clone console if you're going to be so bold. Literally every single alternative clone console has some sort of audio or video flaw and simply is not up to par with this console, even since Day 1. Most people haven't even realized the obscure bugs that are being caught up to this point even.

 

They have made a claim for "Total Accuracy" indeed. However they did not state a timetable at all for such a claim -- you should not have expected this out of the box. If you wanted to win on the argument that the Super NT had false advertisement out of the box, you've won on that front. However (and more importantly), you should realize that Analogue/Kevtris is remaining fully committed to stamping out all bugs as they appear and are reported. They are actively striving towards the goal of total accuracy. This is definitely something that rival companies have never committed to at all up to this point (as someone else has mentioned in this thread).

 

If you are an owner of this console you should be happy and pleased that there is someone very hard at work and behind the scenes to please the user base at all, instead of making noise about something a PR team put together. You're literally one of two people making a kerfuffle over a PR statement. Everyone else is too busy enjoying the console.

[romevi]

Still weird, though. Does it happen with all games? What kind of power supply are you using?

 

The power plug and USB cable it came with.

It's not a big deal for me. The only time it became inconvenient is when I bought a couple of used controllers and kept swapping them out to test for any defects. Otherwise, I just now remember to shut it off before unplugging any controllers.

 

The only big issue I see with it is kids tugging at the cables, but I'm sure we're all playing these out of harm's way.

[kwnage]

Yes, you're right, it's not a big deal. However it's interesting since yours seems to be one of a few (or the only one?) doing this, so far.

Edited February 27, 2018 by kwnage

[Toth]

 

The power plug and USB cable it came with.

It's not a big deal for me. The only time it became inconvenient is when I bought a couple of used controllers and kept swapping them out to test for any defects. Otherwise, I just now remember to shut it off before unplugging any controllers.

 

The only big issue I see with it is kids tugging at the cables, but I'm sure we're all playing these out of harm's way.

Have you tried a different power supply and cable just to check?