FPGA Based Videogame System

[romevi]

In regards to open hardware, doesn't Richard Stallman, the biggest proponent of open software, advocate for closed hardware because it's at the cost of the manufacturer, et al.?

 

As for scalers, I found the reason I kept switching back and forth with HQ 2X and Scalers Off is that the HQ 2X added some really nice softness and boosted the colors beautifully--made the colors nicely saturated. Not too much; not too little.

But with the smudging of some outlines, I decided to go back with Scalers off.

 

On Seiken Densetsu 2 (Secret of Mana) I found a strage glitch when talking to Watts, when he changes place into moogle village. When I enter and exit his dialogue the screen flashes a bit. I don't know wether that's supposed to happen though. This game does present some graphical glitches here and there, and I know many of those used to happen back in the day as I played the game on original cart and original hardware. But this one glitch I'm not sure.

 

 

The flashing in Super Mario World's Cookie Mountain level still happens, and I messed with all the video settings. The water sub-area in that level flashes when you move across the screen. Not sure if that's supposed to happen.

[+stephena]

I am not going to abandon it so long as people wish to use it and buy hardware. Every time someone buys a system containing my code, it gives me another little shot in the arm to keep developing new stuff and fixing the existing stuff. I don't think that driving force would be so strong if I was not getting paid and using my time away from things I want to do for unpaid support on a free project.

 

Personally, I am starting to know this feeling well. I've been working on Stella for almost 18 years at this point, and at times it's starting to get to be a chore. Open-sourcing anything does definitely have its pro's, but there are some con's too. In particular, it wears you out after a while, not seeing much money (or sometimes interest), but still a constant demand for support.

[CZroe]

I can understand why they discontinued the NES30. I put a bunch of 8bitdo products on my store. They sold poorly. I dropped them to at-cost. I managed to move a bunch of them (including all the SNES30), but didn't sell a single NES30.

Sorry it didn’t work out better. I bought an NES30 with a NES Classic Edition Retro Receiver from either eBay or an Amazon seller (can’t recall).

 

I don’t think that’s it though. If you look you will see that it wasn’t the only controller they discontinued. They discontinued ALL of their look-alike controllers and introduced a new line of look-similar controllers. If you try to find documentation, support, firmware updates, etc for the SNES30, NES30, etc you won’t find it. They don’t even have a single picture of these anywhere on their site. If you REALLY dig you will find that them renamed as “N30” and “SN30 Legacy.”

 

It’s pretty clear that they were suddenly concerned with having designs too similar to Nintendo’s and concerned with having trademarks like “NES” and “SNES” in their product names... for whatever reason.

Edited February 28, 2018 by CZroe

[kevtris]

There is also:

ZX-UNO zxuno.speccy.org

ZX-Spectrum Next https://www.specnext.com/

Collectorvision game system is also in development http://atariage.com/forums/topic/265958-collectorvision-game-system/page-4?do=findComment&comment=3922459

I had heard about the ZX-UNO but not the other two.

 

I hope I am not stepping on some toes but I would like to give them some protips on the Collectorvision board.

 

It should have ESD protection on the two controller ports, keyboard port, and RGB/audio outputs. The original Coleco had a big problem with the controller ports failing due to ESD. Also, the audio looks like it is just some RC filtered PWM from the FPGA. A real audio DAC isn't very expensive and would sound a whole lot better. Ditto for the video DAC. I see what looks like 3 bits of weighted resistors but not a DAC. I don't see any pullup resistors on the inputs either, unless they (and possible ESD protection) is on the bottom. Also, DDR/SDRAM would be a lot cheaper and 32 times bigger (i.e. 16mbyte vs. 512K) for the RAM.

[SegaSnatcher]

I think it's safe to say that we haven't seen the last FPGA NES clone, even if the Retro USB AVS was discontinued tomorrow and Analogue never attempts a Super NT style NT Mini successor. As for the Super NT, when they're selling preorders out this quickly, I don't think there's any major risk of this being the last production run.

 

The NT Mini only finally disappeared from sale just a relatively short time time ago. I wouldn't risk holding out until 2019 though, but if one hasn't made their purchase by the end of this spring, I imagine several more opportunities will still present themselves throughout the remainder of this year.

 

There's no money to be had in turning away thousands of buyers. The limited label is used to drive sales of something that otherwise wouldn't of sold half as much if it hadn't carried that moniker (Like the shovelware that Limited Run Games usually sells to sealed game collectors), or to encourage people to be early adapters for something you don't intend to offer for the medium to long-term future.

 

But it's not used as an excuse to prematurely cut production of an item that's selling briskly with a lot of unfulfilled sales potential remaining. The Super NT will disappear when the sales start to slow in the months ahead. A 3rd run at a minimum is all but a certainty given how quickly the second round of orders have been snapped up.

Honestly, I wouldn't assume that. The amount of people very talented in FPGA work is limited as is, let alone that have the means to create a product out of their work.

[SegaSnatcher]

As for the cyclone V not being around forever, this is true but I will most likely be making FPGA videogame systems for a long time to come. I have already brought my NES core through the cyclone 1, 3, and now 5 on the nt mini. I am not going to abandon it so long as people wish to use it and buy hardware. Every time someone buys a system containing my code, it gives me another little shot in the arm to keep developing new stuff and fixing the existing stuff. I don't think that driving force would be so strong if I was not getting paid and using my time away from things I want to do for unpaid support on a free project.

 

Even if I do not open source my core work, I *have* released multiple documents on how various videogame systems work that I have personally reverse engineered. These documents are valuable in their own right if you wish to know something about how those previously undocumented or underdocumented systems work. Pretty sure there will never be a homebrew scene for such fringe systems, but not at least it'd be theoretically possible. I am planning on releasing my SNES technical notes when I get a chance to clean it up, too. I found several previously unknown and underdocumented things during my research for the project.

That makes me very happy. I was scared that the combination of Hi-Def Nes, NT Mini and Super NT might have burned you out. I mean 10 hr work days for God knows how long would burn out a lot of people, but I guess the difference is you love doing FPGA work and probably doesn't just feel like a job to you. LOL, I hope you will get some time off before you work on your next project.

[CZroe]

One thing that’s really contradictory from some open-source proponents is that many oppose commercialization of the source as if that will help it remain freely available for all. On the contrary. One of the best ways to limit end-user access is to lock it behind a DIY/engineering wall.

 

Don’t get me wrong:

I’m all for non-commercial provisions. You have the right to commercialize your work while still releasing the source. It’s the same rights you have if you don’t release source. For example, the SNES9x devs had always hoped for a commercial vendor like Nintendo or Hyperkin to license SNES9x. Of course, Nintendo made their own and Hyperkin just stole it. Bummer.

 

 

I’ve seen many examples of exactly what an end user wants being realistically unobtainable to that end user due to non-commercial provisions. One of those times the author was even making/selling a design but refused to sell it to the person I sent to him! I remember trying to buy it myself years earlier and finding that he only operated on a foreign language forum and, thus, I couldn’t even tell they were for sale there (much less, BUY them).

 

An improved board design was on OSHPark so I made a few and sold one at-cost to the guy who needed one while finally satisfying my own curiosity, but most people aren’t going to have that option and I definitely put a lot more effort into it than I should have (sourcing components, building programmers, and testing/tweaking a three-unit non-commercial “run”).

 

If commercial vendors are offering an open product at an unfair profit then it attracts more vendors. Prices fall with increased availability until the price signaling stops attracting more vendors and people likely have a cheaper option than even DIY.

[scott64]

I just hope Analogue gives us some kinda multi-console next. I really hate the mess I have under the TV.

[Kismet]

I’ve seen many examples of exactly what an end user wants being realistically unobtainable to that end user due to non-commercial provisions. One of those times the author was even making/selling a design but refused to sell it to the person I sent to him! I remember trying to buy it myself years earlier and finding that he only operated on a foreign language forum and, thus, I couldn’t even tell they were for sale there (much less, BUY them).

 

 

One example of this is basically everything involving speech synthesis. There is a large market for it due to translation, transliteration, virtual singers/virtual personalities (eg Siri) and accessibility, but the licenses on just about everything make no speech synthesis engine usable for anything at all, and that's before considering patents. It's as if they're worried that their speech engine will just be dumped and re-sold. To some extent that's also very true, since the speech engines are basically a database of sounds of every consonant paired to a vowel/accent (diphone synthesis.) Apple, Google, etc basically had to acquire a company that had worked on a speech engine in order to use it in anything.

 

Floating back to the FPGA topic though, my worry is that there will be too much infighting over "who's feature set is best" and we've seen that in this thread already over the analog outputs on the NT's.

 

Like, if I were to design something I'd design it on an ITX MB layout if the ultimate goal is to emulate old PC/Amiga systems, get a ZIF socketed FPGA, and have the RAM modules replacable. But from an EE point of view, this is stupid since you can't buy off-the-shelf socketed FPGA's or even old memory SODIMM's. You'd basically get stuck building additional boards just for the sake of trying to future proof it, and as we've seen Intel do time and time again, New CPU, new Chipset, toss your old stuff.

[SegaSnatcher]

I just hope Analogue gives us some kinda multi-console next. I really hate the mess I have under the TV.

I mean they have the means to do it, but aesthetics is obviously important to them and I don't know if you can make a multi-console system look nice, They definitely don't want their console to appear similar to a freaking Craptron 5.

 

RetroFreak doesn't look too bad though at least for a multi-console machine. Just a bit bland looking with the off-white color scheme.

Edited February 28, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Atariboy]

Aesthetics aren't so important as to derail any plans they ever may formulate to release a multi-system fpga based game console.

[Keatah]

My thinking was something like,"The Nt Mini looks so awesome and is so much of a hit that it is going to be for sale for a long time. I'll buy one after I close on my house and rebuild my game room there." I had this assumption because I thought one of the reasons they moved away from cannibalizing original hardware to using FPGA's was to get away from making a console that has to be a limited edition and because they seem to be about preserving video game history so that it can be enjoyed in the future. It isn't really preserving video game history if a limited number of people have one and now that I'm ready to buy one because I'm at my rebuilding my game room stage I can't buy one from them. I think they definitely should bring it back in plastic and make it compatible with the DAC they are working on. There has to be others like me that wanted one but either the funds or timing wasn't right.

The preservation angle in marketing is just for marketing. The console has flash memory inside and therefore is only good for maybe 10-15 years. Unless they spec'd a high lifespan part.

[SegaSnatcher]

Aesthetics aren't so important as to derail any plans they ever may formulate to release a multi-system fpga based game console.

Analogue won't release a system if they can't come up with a design that pleases them. They are like Apple in that way.

[DarkkOne]

The preservation angle in marketing is just for marketing. The console has flash memory inside and therefore is only good for maybe 10-15 years. Unless they spec'd a high lifespan part.

Most 10-15 year "lifetimes" for flash assume it's in read/write use. Assuming the Super NT only writes to it when you actually choose "save settings" or upgrade firmwares, the lifetime is likely to be considerably longer than the "average." Also, whether it has wear leveling or not. Most modern flash does, but embedded flash certainly may not. The 10 year average is often based on an arbitrary number like 100,000 write cycles (which is per sector, so if you're only using 10% of your storage capacity, and it's wear leveled, you're not likely to see data loss for a LOT longer than 100,000 writes).

 

Flash is actually a pretty decent storage for read-only uses. As long as it's kept in a good environment, and not written to often, it'll last quite a long time.

[SegaSnatcher]

The preservation angle in marketing is just for marketing. The console has flash memory inside and therefore is only good for maybe 10-15 years. Unless they spec'd a high lifespan part.

That is if you are doing tons of writes. Flash memory just doesn't die in 10 - 15 yrs. If that were the case then we'd see the majority of console Memory cards fail by now since a lot of them use flash memory. My PS1 memory cards are still going strong.

[SegaSnatcher]

Most 10-15 year "lifetimes" for flash assume it's in read/write use. Assuming the Super NT only writes to it when you actually choose "save settings" or upgrade firmwares, the lifetime is likely to be considerably longer than the "average." Also, whether it has wear leveling or not. Most modern flash does, but embedded flash certainly may not. The 10 year average is often based on an arbitrary number like 100,000 write cycles (which is per sector, so if you're only using 10% of your storage capacity, and it's wear leveled, you're not likely to see data loss for a LOT longer than 100,000 writes).

 

Flash is actually a pretty decent storage for read-only uses. As long as it's kept in a good environment, and not written to often, it'll last quite a long time.

I'd wager much longer than EPROMs.

Edited February 28, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Kismet]

I mean they have the means to do it, but aesthetics is obviously important to them and I don't know if you can make a multi-console system look nice, They definitely don't want their console to appear similar to a freaking Craptron 5.

 

RetroFreak doesn't look too bad though at least for a multi-console machine. Just a bit bland looking with the off-white color scheme.

 

I was almost considering buying the RetroFreak before I heard about FPGA systems.

 

Like if all Analogue does is make individual clone systems, that's fine, that's their prerogative. But I think it would be better for long-term viability if they built one system that has more mass-market appeal, and part of getting that appeal is having the companies re-release their games.

 

Take for example the current backlash against Square-Enix over their half-baked PC/mobile ports of FF5,FF6,Secret of Mana, and Chrono Trigger. Would it not be in SE's interest to release their own multi-cart for the SuperNT, or perhaps be able to buy a legit "MSU-1.lite" version that can be run from the SD-card. Anyone who bought the PC versions already has the sound track and could basically make their own MSU-1 patch if they were technically proficient enough.

 

(by MSU-1.lite, I mean a MSU-1 implementation in the onboard FPGA that plays the audio directly.)

Edited February 28, 2018 by Kismet

[Andromeda Stardust]

Sales appeared to have slowed a lot. Only so many takers for ~$450 NES systems.

 

I do wonder why it wasn't kept around a bit longer to overlap with the Super NT though, since in the excitement for this product, hundreds more could've been sold I'm sure. But then one has to consider the possibility that the NT Mini isn't their last attempt at a NES fpga system.

 

A cost reduced NES system with two controller ports, a plastic shell instead of an aluminum shell, analogue output moved externally to a separate adapter, and with internal improvements thanks to a more powerful fpga, could be a logical follow-up to the Super NT.

 

They could even get away with eliminating the Famicom port thanks to Famicom to NES pin adapters, although I imagine this is one luxury that they'd want to retain.

 

avs has 4 controler ports, 2 cart slots, a 15 pin exp connector, and sold for 185.

[HDTV1080P]

I just became aware that this thread existed. This looks like a neat product once it is released. I am looking for support for the Coleco ADAM computer. Also if this device supported 8 bit and 16 bit computers with a total of 4 USB 3.0 interfaces that would be cool. The USB interfaces could be used for a keyboard, Logitech marble mouse, Steering wheel, USB floppy drive, and USB printer.

 

When is this product going to be released? Sometime in 2020+? Or perhaps sooner.

Edited February 28, 2018 by HDTV1080P

[scott64]

I just became aware that this thread existed. This looks like a neat product once it is released. I am looking for support for the Coleco ADAM computer. Also if this device supported 8 bit and 16 bit computers with a total of 4 USB 3.0 interfaces that would be cool. The USB interfaces could be used for a keyboard, Logitech marble mouse, Steering wheel, USB floppy drive, and USB printer.

 

When is this product going to be released? Sometime in 2020+? Or perhaps sooner.

We need to get you up to speed on this..

 

Basically the plans for the Zimba 3000 is on (indefinite) hiatus.

 

Kevtris partnered with Analogue and developed the Analogue NT mini which utilities his NES/famicom core and released many of his 8-bit cores on a jailbreak firmware. This unit is out of stock and most likely won't be in stock again anytime soon if at all.

 

Next Kevtris was hired to produce a SNES core and the Analogue Super NT launched earlier this month. It's looking like this one is only going to support the SNES core, but who knows. This unit has already nearly sold out it's second run so if you want one get on it.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

 

[retroillucid]

I had heard about the ZX-UNO but not the other two.

 

I hope I am not stepping on some toes but I would like to give them some protips on the Collectorvision board.

 

It should have ESD protection on the two controller ports, keyboard port, and RGB/audio outputs. The original Coleco had a big problem with the controller ports failing due to ESD. Also, the audio looks like it is just some RC filtered PWM from the FPGA. A real audio DAC isn't very expensive and would sound a whole lot better. Ditto for the video DAC. I see what looks like 3 bits of weighted resistors but not a DAC. I don't see any pullup resistors on the inputs either, unless they (and possible ESD protection) is on the bottom. Also, DDR/SDRAM would be a lot cheaper and 32 times bigger (i.e. 16mbyte vs. 512K) for the RAM.

Thanks Kevin for these tips, I appreciate

We're definitely going to follow these advices

[Sneakyturtleegg]

The last few pages of this thread have been a breath of fresh air. Good stuff.

[Jakir]

Funny how some people claim because Kevtris' work is closed source that means he isn't helping the community or preserving video games.

Just so no one misses the importance of what happened here if a product gets released that damages oem stuff plugged into it then that is probably going to get a really negative response and also kill a lot of accessories no longer in production. Just giving out a few footnotes to prevent that is like if Voultar had been able to help the SSD3 team correct their board before the release. Can you imagine how different the response would be to the SSD3 right now if that happened?

[SegaSnatcher]

We need to get you up to speed on this..

 

Basically the plans for the Zimba 3000 is on (indefinite) hiatus.

 

Kevtris partnered with Analogue and developed the Analogue NT mini which utilities his NES/famicom core and released many of his 8-bit cores on a jailbreak firmware. This unit is out of stock and most likely won't be in stock again anytime soon if at all.

 

Next Kevtris was hired to produce a SNES core and the Analogue Super NT launched earlier this month. It's looking like this one is only going to support the SNES core, but who knows. This unit has already nearly sold out it's second run so if you want one get on it.

 

Did I miss anything?

 

 

Looks good to me, but you did forget to mention that Kevtris can rock purple like no other.

 

 

[cfillak]

Funny how some people claim because Kevtris' work is closed source that means he isn't helping the community or preserving video games.

 

Just so no one misses the importance of what happened here if a product gets released that damages oem stuff plugged into it then that is probably going to get a really negative response and also kill a lot of accessories no longer in production. Just giving out a few footnotes to prevent that is like if Voultar had been able to help the SSD3 team correct their board before the release. Can you imagine how different the response would be to the SSD3 right now if that happened?

I think people are also missing the point on the preservation angle. It's all well and good to have a system completely documented, emulated/simulated with near 100% accuracy and to have every ROM dumped. But as we've seen with the huge popularity of the SNES Classic, some care needs to be taken into creating a method to get people to easily PLAY THE GAMES. We all walk around with computers capable of decent SNES emulation every single day, but people are ready and willing to pay money for a seamless package that allows them to play their SNES games with controllers on an HDTV. I've played more SNES since I've gotten my Super NT than in the whole last 2-3 years. The Super NT is preserving people's WILLINGNESS and ABILITY to easily play SNES games.