FPGA Based Videogame System

[Andromeda Stardust]

What does Analogue Nt mean. Analogue could refer to analog outputs but a big feature is digital hdmi. From the word analogy analogue means comparable. Comparable to the old nintendo. Analogue Nt meaning comparable to nintendo makes more sense than comparable to new technology. Of course you'd have to ask the people at Analogue.

 

---------

And it could be possible, with some skill and effort, to take an Nt mini core and reverse it to VHDL and then retarget it to a new FPGA. I think it would take lots of skill and effort. It would be easier to take an opensource vhdl nes core and target it to the supernt. There would still be some reverse engineering work to make it happen.

Exactly. Analogue is their brand name. They make digital consoles. That isn't any less ironic than a Mega NT, is it?

[Kismet]

What does Analogue Nt mean. Analogue could refer to analog outputs but a big feature is digital hdmi. From the word analogy analogue means comparable. Comparable to the old nintendo. Analogue Nt meaning comparable to nintendo makes more sense than comparable to new technology. Of course you'd have to ask the people at Analogue.

 

 

I'm trying to steer arguments away from pointless arguing over the name of something we don't even know is in the cards, so the pedantic arguments over what "NT" or "Nt" or even the company name means is just pointless conjecture and results in two pages of the same points being argued over and over between people who think it should be named something else. Analogue is not coming to this forum to pick a name for their hardware.

 

And "Analogue" is the company name.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/analogue

 

And that is the dictionary meaning.

 

For a Mega Drive/Sega Genesis, the most obvious word to use is "Mega", be that Analogue Mega, Analogue MegaMega, Analogue Mega^2, Analogue MegaMaster, Analogue MultiMega ( https://segaretro.org/Sega_Multi-Mega) , Analogue Mega NT, etc. If we want to get real silly, Analogue TeraFPGA ( poking fun at https://segaretro.org/Teradrive )

[cacophony]

With regards to the proposed Mega NT, here's my thoughts:

• ...
• Sega-CD support would be cool, but here's how I think it should work: Reverse engineer the Sega-CD and have a Sega-CD FPGA core built-in, but don't add an optical drive. Just add the ability to put Sega-CD images on an SD card and play them that way. I say this because adding moving parts just adds a failure point and added cost to the system. Keep everything solid state. With these old optical based consoles, people are pulling out their optical drives in droves and swapping them out with solid state alternatives. The Rhea, Phoebe, GD-Emu, USB-GD-Rom, and PSIO all have a much higher demand than supply right now. Running disc images off an SD card is a fair compromise, a big cost saving measure, more convenient, and more stable. If support for Sega-CD games is going to be added, then that's the most practical way to do it. That's just my take. I'm sure there are others that vehemently disagree and absolutely must play their Sega-CD games with the original media. Fine. We'll agree to disagree.

I think that makes perfect sense from a user's perspective, but the problem is that implementing the Sega-CD would be a ton of extra work (it's essentially an entirely different console), and has hardware requirements that go beyond what's required to support the Genesis. It seems unlikely that they'd increase the build cost and devote (6?) months of development time to a feature they can't actually advertise.

Edited March 13, 2018 by cacophony

[Keatah]

Would you buy this collector's edition?... http://www.gamespot.com/articles/386-000-dying-light-special-edition-announced/1100-6425493/

Heh.. That's more like an experience package, a vacation and a tree-house. Even if I was the world's most rabid fan I'd pass on it. I'm not one to spend extravagantly. So no.

 

What I dislike are the intangible temporary "perks" like getting to spend a weekend with the developers playing games and getting schooled in how to play the game, or some happy horseshit like that. It's a popular thing in those kickstarters. Doing that sort of thing, and partaking in such trivialities is not for me. I'm not interested in paying money to help elevate someone into godhood, or confirming they've reached such a position.

 

Just as bad as tripling the price of concert tickets for a 5-minute meet-n-greet. You thing them rock stars are interested in getting to know some common man flunky? Nope, it's something they tolerate for extra $$$.

[cfillak]

I think that makes perfect sense from a user's perspective, but the problem is that implementing the Sega-CD would be a ton of extra work (it's essentially an entirely different console), and has hardware requirements that go behind what's required to support the Genesis. It seems unlikely that they'd increase the build cost and devote (6?) months of development time to a feature they can't actually advertise.

Yeah if they do decide to just implement the whole Sega CD in FPGA, it's highly unlikely that they would delay the release of the Analogue MD/SG/Mega NT if the Genesis core is complete, just to wait for a jailbreak only, piracy dependent feature. If they did plan on implementing Sega CD in FPGA, they would likely just overspec the Mega NT to leave enough headroom/bandwidth for the SCD and just ship it as a Genesis only. It might not be worth the extra cost, and if it causes it to be like 100 dollars more expensive than the Super NT, people would be very confused.

[Loukey]

Yeah if they do decide to just implement the whole Sega CD in FPGA, it's highly unlikely that they would delay the release of the Analogue MD/SG/Mega NT if the Genesis core is complete, just to wait for a jailbreak only, piracy dependent feature. If they did plan on implementing Sega CD in FPGA, they would likely just overspec the Mega NT to leave enough headroom/bandwidth for the SCD and just ship it as a Genesis only. It might not be worth the extra cost, and if it causes it to be like 100 dollars more expensive than the Super NT, people would be very confused.

Maybe release a second upmarket version with additional built-in gen-2 analog output thus enabling working with a 32x and the additional sideport or additional FPGA headroom to allow for potential expansion in future. I know its a pipe dream but how nuce it would be to have what amounts to a sega Neptune

[gorfcadet]

Maybe release a second upmarket version with additional built-in gen-2 analog output thus enabling working with a 32x and the additional sideport or additional FPGA headroom to allow for potential expansion in future. I know its a pipe dream but how nuce it would be to have what amounts to a sega Neptune

A Neptune type all in one would be the way to go. I love the Frankenstein monster that is my SEGA 32X CD, but to drop for a new hdmi SEGA console, it would have to be an all in one solution.

While we are pie in the sky, I would love to see a workaround for light gun games. Some kind of onscreen reticule for WiiMotes or even a gun that supports variable refresh or a locked refresh that the NT and Super NT or even the AVS could support.

 

Love the fact that this hardware exists! Thank you Kevtris and I cant wait to see what is next!

 

Btw. Somehow my phone spell corrected hardware to fat dwarf! Wtf!

[mr_me]

Exactly. Analogue is their brand name. They make digital consoles. That isn't any less ironic than a Mega NT, is it?

That's why it makes more sense for Analogue to mean analogous i.e. comparable. Analogue Nt, comparable to nintendo makes sense.

[kwnage]

A Neptune type all in one would be the way to go. I love the Frankenstein monster that is my SEGA 32X CD, but to drop for a new hdmi SEGA console, it would have to be an all in one solution.

 

It would be awesome if we'd finally get a Neptune. Although not very likely due to the fact, that there were not that many great 32X games.

 

We could call it Analogue Nt again or Mega Nt... where Nt stands for Neptune. That would make certain people happy, I guess. ...Or maybe Analogue Np?

Edited March 13, 2018 by kwnage

[Kismet]

A Neptune type all in one would be the way to go. I love the Frankenstein monster that is my SEGA 32X CD, but to drop for a new hdmi SEGA console, it would have to be an all in one solution.

While we are pie in the sky, I would love to see a workaround for light gun games. Some kind of onscreen reticule for WiiMotes or even a gun that supports variable refresh or a locked refresh that the NT and Super NT or even the AVS could support.

 

 

What is needed for this would require pulling a page from the Wii, including a IR transmitter (which can be produced cheaply as the wii only needs it for orientation) that is taped to the screen top/bottom. The "light gun" then operates using a CCD camera and accelerometers. Since the Wiimotes still exist, and after-market models also exist, and the same parts are used smart phones for the exact same thing, the easiest way to create a "light gun" would be for 8bitdo to create lightguns that work only with the Mini NT/Super NT by switching to "CCD light gun on port 2" and the NT Mini/Super NT to actually do the logic to make it work.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

What is needed for this would require pulling a page from the Wii, including a IR transmitter (which can be produced cheaply as the wii only needs it for orientation) that is taped to the screen top/bottom. The "light gun" then operates using a CCD camera and accelerometers. Since the Wiimotes still exist, and after-market models also exist, and the same parts are used smart phones for the exact same thing, the easiest way to create a "light gun" would be for 8bitdo to create lightguns that work only with the Mini NT/Super NT by switching to "CCD light gun on port 2" and the NT Mini/Super NT to actually do the logic to make it work.

But light guns using a sensor need calibration. The Wiimote isn't nearly as precise as an old fashioned light gun on a crt; in fact it can't truly know where it is pointed aside from the relative position ofthe sensor bar and a vague notion of whether the bar is placed above or below the screen. Are you playing on a 13 inch screen or a 65 inch screen? The direction of the pointer with actual screen position is completely relative, which is why wiimote games require a cursor to work properly.

 

By the time we have added a Wiimote sensor port (which has to be custom fabricated btw), blue tooth receivers, some HUD to let you know where the cursor is in realtime on the screen since you cannot correlate exact pointer position to screen position, and on top of all that, you'll probably need an ARM coprocessor on the FPGA to handle the Blue Tooth protocol because the FPGA probably isn't up to the task, and a GPU to provide realtime overlay of the cursor. At this point you've added at least one frame of lag due to the necessity that the GPU needs a frame buffer, unless you want to devote loads more FPGA space to simulate a realtime GPU that overlays menus or cursor information.

 

This at least triples or quadruples the FPGA complexity and hardware costs, and shifts away from authentic cycle accurate hardware simulation to laggy emulation territory. The ARM driver for the Wiimotes will add input lag on top of the frame buffer for the HUD and cursors. It's basically a kludge not unlike the Sega 32X where you have to overlay realtime video output as well as handle a coprocessor and GPU for the Bluetooth and Wimote implements which cannot be readily handled by the FPGA.

 

So I think required supplementary hardware to play the handful of lightgun games that exist on NES/SNES/SMS/Genesis would better serve fans of light gun games by keeping a smallish CRT laying around for the few games that require them, or using a softmodded Wii to simulate light gun games. I think the unlicensed Wii emulators do a good enough job of satisfying that lightgun itch for gamers who lack access to CRTs, while purists will demand CRT action specifically for lightgun games.

 

There's maybe a dozen or so NES / SMS games that utilize lightguns, and about as many for SNES / Genesis. If you wanna play Duck Hunt, Safari Hunt, Sentinel, Yoshi's Safari, Menacer, Lethal Enforcers, et al, either emulate them on a soft-modded Wii using Wiimotes, or play them on original hardware with a CRT. Don't go curbside your still working CRT just yet...

[gorfcadet]

Not for nothing, but you can use an off brand sensor bar that is battery or usb powered and 8 bitdo already supports Wii motes. I have three crts, but they wont last forever nor do I want to drag them out for game night at a friends house.

[Kismet]

But light guns using a sensor need calibration. The Wiimote isn't nearly as precise as an old fashioned light gun on a crt;...

 

You are WAY over-complicating this. There are SmartTV's that have crappier versions of this, and they're not any more complicated. Aftermarket Wiimotes are like $10.

 

You use the "wiimote" style light gun by having the FPGA recognize a "light gun" mode accessory in port 2, that could be an 8bit do controller, that could be a regular wiimote, whatever.

 

But what you have the FPGA do is recognize the trigger "pull" action via that port, and thus "grabbing" the frame from the FPGA console, doing the math that would do a hit/miss and then passing the actual "I hit it" bits to the game instead.

 

Like in theory, this is no less accurate than an actual light gun, because all the light gun does is go "I saw a white flash" and could be faked out with a light bulb. It would of course require some kind of calibration in the menu, but it wouldn't be trying to calibrate the 'wiimote' style input with 1080p precision, no , most of these light gun games only had a hitbox precision of 8x8.

[phoenixdownita]

 

You are WAY over-complicating this. There are SmartTV's that have crappier versions of this, and they're not any more complicated. Aftermarket Wiimotes are like $10.

 

You use the "wiimote" style light gun by having the FPGA recognize a "light gun" mode accessory in port 2, that could be an 8bit do controller, that could be a regular wiimote, whatever.

 

But what you have the FPGA do is recognize the trigger "pull" action via that port, and thus "grabbing" the frame from the FPGA console, doing the math that would do a hit/miss and then passing the actual "I hit it" bits to the game instead.

 

Like in theory, this is no less accurate than an actual light gun, because all the light gun does is go "I saw a white flash" and could be faked out with a light bulb. It would of course require some kind of calibration in the menu, but it wouldn't be trying to calibrate the 'wiimote' style input with 1080p precision, no , most of these light gun games only had a hitbox precision of 8x8.

Don't worry not going to happen anytime soon.

 

I bet you'll have the time to get an advanced degree in electronics yourself and one in 8/16bit assembly coding and be the one doing it for the rest of us before anyone else attempts it .... too much hassle, too many people would complain of imprecision and how it does not feel like the original etc..... and it's not that there are so many games worth saving anyway, yeah someone would swear by it but that too it'll pass.

 

Sidenote: the CDi light gun still works to this day as it is based on pretty much the same tech the wiimote perfected 15 years later (it was called airmouse tech on the CDi) but it is quite imprecise.

 

EDIT: obviously the MAME/MESS guys will find a way to emulate it somehow as they've done already for arcade versions ... whether the results are anywhere near where they should be is another matter.

[Newsdee]

There are some USB lightguns that emulate a mouse. Perhaps supporting that would be enough, then the core just needs mouse handling.

[phoenixdownita]

There are some USB lightguns that emulate a mouse. Perhaps supporting that would be enough, then the core just needs mouse handling.

...and the game too!!!

 

BTW Saturn VirtuaCop1/2 do support the Saturn mouse .... I have not tried if TimeCrisis on PS1 also supports the PS1 mouse.

To be fair I have not even tried if any Genesis/MD/SegaCD light gun games do support the Genesis/MD mouse or if any SNES light gun games do support the SNES mouse (from wikipedia/segaretro it seems there's a non empty intersection between light gun games and mouse supporting games on both 16bits consoles but it is very narrow)

 

EDIT: .... ahhhh forgot, Revolution X for Saturn is also mouse compatible .... I just puked in my mouth!! What a crappy game that is.

[Kismet]

...and the game too!!!

 

BTW Saturn VirtuaCop1/2 do support the Saturn mouse .... I have not tried if TimeCrisis on PS1 also support the PS1 mouse.

To be fair I have not even tried if any Genesis/MD/SegaCD light gun games do support the Genesis/MD mouse or if any SNES light gun games do support the SNES mouse (form wikipedia/segaretro it seems there's a non empty intersection between light gun games and mouse supporting games on both consoles but it is very narrow)

 

The gamegenie support exists, it can be made to patch lightgun games to mouse games in all likeliness, but that is also likely far more effort than making use of the knowledge that a game is a light gun game and what the game is expecting from the controller and substituting a Wiimote or other HID (eg a wireless mouse) or analog controls. However to use anything BUT a wiimote, would require writing to the screen a targeting sight on the screen like in software emulators, which would not be "accurate" either, but it's a fair compromise as opposed to not having any way to play them at all.

 

But I digress, the superscope uses an IR transmitter as well (as the communications channel.) There is no way of making the actual lightguns work primarily because that can't be done. That's why I've said in the last three messages or so that a NT/SuperNT specific "light gun" would be the best way of solving that, but it would require the NT/SuperNT to at the minimum be able to take coordinates from the BT dongle instead of passing "I hit it", hence needing a menu item to switch the second port into this specific light gun simulator mode where it intercepts the port 2 controller commands, keeping track of it's position, compares the PPU "hit box" with the coordinates, and then then passes "I hit it" from that when the trigger is pulled. That is much simpler, but also makes a lot of assumptions on how all light gun games work, and might still require "game-specific" game genie/dynamic patches to increase the length of time of the hitbox is "visible" to do the calculation before the scaler.

[Shadowgate]

Has anyone done testing on the FM audio of the Master System core and compared it to the Japanese MK-2000, Everdrive X7, or other FM audio variants? I've seen some exploratory comparisons and I know Bob of RetroRGB had plans for it before he stepped back. Any of you aware of any conclusions on what provides the most clarity and quality? I'm wondering if a MK-2000 or modded Master System is something I should pursue.

 

From what I can tell the various solutions all sound slightly different. I can't find any posts of people discussing the quality of the FM audio on the NT Mini's core.

 

This thread moves so fast I'm probably whistling in the wind but I'm hoping some of you have opinions or know of people exploring the issue.

[phoenixdownita]

...

But I digress, the superscope uses an IR transmitter as well (as the communications channel.) There is no way of making the actual lightguns work primarily because that can't be done. That's why I've said in the last three messages or so that a NT/SuperNT specific "light gun" would be the best way of solving that, but it would require the NT/SuperNT to at the minimum be able to take coordinates from the BT dongle instead of passing "I hit it", hence needing a menu item to switch the second port into this specific light gun simulator mode where it intercepts the port 2 controller commands, keeping track of it's position, compares the PPU "hit box" with the coordinates, and then then passes "I hit it" from that when the trigger is pulled. That is much simpler, but also makes a lot of assumptions on how all light gun games work, and might still require "game-specific" game genie/dynamic patches to increase the length of time of the hitbox is "visible" to do the calculation before the scaler.

If memory serves the hitbox is a NES tech not used by the rest, again if memory serves the rest of light gun games try to time the position of the beam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun#Cathode_ray_timing)

 

As I said I bet you can be the one garnering all the knowledge necessary to actually pull this rabbit out of its hat before anyone else does.

[Forsaken]

If memory serves the hitbox is a NES tech not used by the rest, again if memory serves the rest of light gun games try to time the position of the beam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_gun#Cathode_ray_timing)

 

As I said I bet you can be the one garnering all the knowledge necessary to actually pull this rabbit out of its hat before anyone else does.

Yeh, superscope is way more accurate, down to a single scan line, and a few pixels of it. It actually sees where it's pointed by that scan timing trick.

 

You'd never ever get that kind of accuracy from a Wiimote. Not even close. The only modern approaches that could come close are modifications of the Wiimote method, with more IR beacons, one at each corner of the screen, so it can triangulate where it's aimed, regardless of angle or distance to the screen. Or depth cameras like the Switch has, and retro reflective targets placed similarly around the screen. The later being the most accurate.

 

None of this is going to show up on Super NT though, because Super NT runs a SNES core. It's an FPGA system, remember? It's not a general purpose computer running an emulator where you can just arbitrarily add all this abstraction.

 

The Super Scope is directly compatible with the Super NT using the forthcoming DAC however, so long as you have a working CRT to plug it into.

[Newsdee]

It is possible for an FPGA to have mouse handling; but yes it's a bit more work to wire it to the internals to pretend it's a light gun. There is true parallelism though, so e.g. figuring out which scanline is being drawn might be easier than with CPU emulation. In any case this is all moot unless am HDL developer has the source as is willing to have a look at it.

[Mattelot]

Heh.. That's more like an experience package, a vacation and a tree-house. Even if I was the world's most rabid fan I'd pass on it. I'm not one to spend extravagantly. So no.

 

What I dislike are the intangible temporary "perks" like getting to spend a weekend with the developers playing games and getting schooled in how to play the game, or some happy horseshit like that. It's a popular thing in those kickstarters. Doing that sort of thing, and partaking in such trivialities is not for me. I'm not interested in paying money to help elevate someone into godhood, or confirming they've reached such a position.

 

Just as bad as tripling the price of concert tickets for a 5-minute meet-n-greet. You thing them rock stars are interested in getting to know some common man flunky? Nope, it's something they tolerate for extra $$$.

 

What game/kickstarter does that? I've not read many... only hear about the products and that they originated from there.

 

As for concert tickets, I guess it all depends on if you have the money, if its worth it to you as the consumer and/or have a plan. My 16 year old paid extra to meet the lead singer of one of his favorite bands (Stone Sour) and got him to autograph a copy of their new CD. I recently learned that his grandmother did that years ago with Van Halen.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

With regards to the proposed Mega NT, here's my thoughts:

 

• If it just has an MD cart slot, and costs roughly the same as a Super NT, then I'm fine with it. It'll undoubtedly get jailbroken sooner or later, which means we could probably play Master System games via the SD slot, and if not we could still play them via a Mega Everdrive, so a separate Master System cart slot just seems like an unnecessary complexity and cost, but that's just me. I don't have a big MS collection, so not being able to use MS carts wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
• 32x support would be cool, but not a make or break feature for me
• Sega-CD support would be cool, but here's how I think it should work: Reverse engineer the Sega-CD and have a Sega-CD FPGA core built-in, but don't add an optical drive. Just add the ability to put Sega-CD images on an SD card and play them that way. I say this because adding moving parts just adds a failure point and added cost to the system. Keep everything solid state. With these old optical based consoles, people are pulling out their optical drives in droves and swapping them out with solid state alternatives. The Rhea, Phoebe, GD-Emu, USB-GD-Rom, and PSIO all have a much higher demand than supply right now. Running disc images off an SD card is a fair compromise, a big cost saving measure, more convenient, and more stable. If support for Sega-CD games is going to be added, then that's the most practical way to do it. That's just my take. I'm sure there are others that vehemently disagree and absolutely must play their Sega-CD games with the original media. Fine. We'll agree to disagree.

 

You can always buy a Power Base Converter if you want to play real Master System carts on the Mega NT.

[AtariNerd]

^Was there a PB Converter for the model/system II, III? The system I adapter was specially molded to fit the original MD/Genesis' profile and would more or less dictate the shape of the top, back and overall height of what a proposed Analogue SG (or whatever) would need to be, if it were to allow use of one. The width could end just around or a little over the width of the convertor (I guess if it were to allow connection to a CD drive, like the side-mounted System II drive, the side profile would need to conform to allowing that) and it would need a bit more in front to account for console buttons or sliders. That's pretty specific and butting up pretty close to the original design. Wonder, if as others have suggested, SEGA might be on-board for licensing something like that. Might just be easier to include the 8-bit cart port.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

The gamegenie support exists, it can be made to patch lightgun games to mouse games in all likeliness, but that is also likely far more effort than making use of the knowledge that a game is a light gun game and what the game is expecting from the controller and substituting a Wiimote or other HID (eg a wireless mouse) or analog controls. However to use anything BUT a wiimote, would require writing to the screen a targeting sight on the screen like in software emulators, which would not be "accurate" either, but it's a fair compromise as opposed to not having any way to play them at all.

 

But I digress, the superscope uses an IR transmitter as well (as the communications channel.) There is no way of making the actual lightguns work primarily because that can't be done. That's why I've said in the last three messages or so that a NT/SuperNT specific "light gun" would be the best way of solving that, but it would require the NT/SuperNT to at the minimum be able to take coordinates from the BT dongle instead of passing "I hit it", hence needing a menu item to switch the second port into this specific light gun simulator mode where it intercepts the port 2 controller commands, keeping track of it's position, compares the PPU "hit box" with the coordinates, and then then passes "I hit it" from that when the trigger is pulled. That is much simpler, but also makes a lot of assumptions on how all light gun games work, and might still require "game-specific" game genie/dynamic patches to increase the length of time of the hitbox is "visible" to do the calculation before the scaler.

You bring up a good point. Perhaps the Super NT could be made to overlay a pointer to use the mouse with Super Scope Games. It would take some work though, and I'm not sure Kevtris would want to put that level of effort into something that very few people would use. I don't think I'd mind playing Yoshi's Safari with an SNES mouse though. Standing with that giant bazooka on my shoulders for the hour or so it takes to play through the entire game is tiring, fun as it is.

 

BTW, the Hyperkin SNES laser mouse works flawlessly with the Super NT. I love being able to use it on my pants instead of sitting at a proper desk or fumbling with dirty trackballs. You should set the menu to boot the game directly if using the mouse, as it is useless for navigating the menus. Though I would love to get SNES mouse support for Super Scope emulation, doesn't the Super Scope have three buttons? That might be an issue.

 

At the very least, I would like for the ability to navigate the menu using the mouse. Cursor highlights the selection, left click to select it, right click is the back button. As it stands, if your game throws an error message on boot if the mouse isn't plugged in, and you need a controller to run the cartridge, that makes it difficult to access the game. Of course booting directly to the cart (with or without the splash screen animation) bypasses the menu entirely.