FPGA Based Videogame System

[Tanooki]

That's not entirely true. The 2017 model primarily got bad reviews on early review systems that went out with a problem, but the actual sold at retail systems corrected the issue. There were some minor annoyances with odd ways to navigate the menu retained and the odd ball thing here or there, but on the whole that HD Genesis that runs carts they did is sound unlike anything else they ever did for the console.

[cacophony]

IDK.... when Analogue releases a product they get glowing reviews from quite a few major review sources. I have yet to see any kind of glowing review for an AtGames console. Good reviews sell products. Mediocre ones, not so much.

[SegaSnatcher]

Can you point to any part of the video I posted that shows this particular Genesis clone does anything poorly? I'm not saying the device is flawless, but your statement seems pretty broad and biased to me.

 

 

 

Agreed, but at a 60$ price point, people are necessarily going to wonder just how much they need the Analogue "deluxe" product. If they only play with their collection of Genesis carts occasionally, and they don't mind the slightly limited/inferior HD output (compared to what Analogue's product is poised to provide) perhaps they'll just settle for the inferior clone, and save over 100$ in the process. You do bring up an interesting question about input lag though, that could be a deal-breaker for many potential buyers.

 

 

 

I don't mean to play devil's advocate, but I'd say you're comparing apples to oranges. Would the Super NT have sold out as fast as it did if it hadn't been an FPGA console, with the unpromised-but-always-possible feature of additional cores? Would it have been as much of a success if the NT Mini (and the impressive batch of free cores nobody saw coming) hadn't come just before it?

 

I'm sure Kevtris/Analogue's next offering will get all the attention and success it deserves, I'm just saying they're not alone in the Sega Genesis arena, and some people have a gaming budget they need to stick to.

But thats the thing. Analogue products aren't for casuals or people with super tight budgets, so those cheap clones are irrelevant in regards to how well an Analogue product will sell because Analogue products are boutique for hardcore retro gamers.

[SegaSnatcher]

Ugh pixelboy is right, people are getting a bit too personally invested in this argument over the Genesis. When there is a cheaper HDMI unit out there that runs basically almost anything accurately enough(or just accurately to an untrained and/or not OCD eye) it's going to be a harder sell with the Analogue device if it happened. Also let's face is, Sega is effectively for hardware, dead. They license out the rights to mimic their hardware and license releases of their back library and that's all they care about but they also would likely want to protect that too. There is no HDMI Genesis on the mass market that runs carts other than ATGames fairly solid 2017 offering and the 2018 is a good improvement on the smaller list of issues it had we've read here on the site. It makes it harder for a tiny operation like the NT guys to make a Genesis system that'll undercut them by at least 1/2 price. Analogue only cares about emulator looking bells and whistles, not going into lame online mechanics, box art foo foo, bluetooth and wifi internally, they're about being damn accurate FPGA and barebones, selling even the bluetooth controller on the side as an added accessory.

 

In reality I think they'd want to move on with something there is no competition in and has a name behind it where you could get tens of thousands of orders, not a lucky to scrape by figure. I know the Sega fans will howl here but I'd be far less surprised by them doing a Analogue NT64 before a Genesis. The Genesis at least has HDMI options, the N64 has none unless you go with that $200 something dollar HDMI kit...and hmm, interesting, let's think about this a moment. Kevtris is a good reason why Analogue has their cores for the NT and Super NT, and for the NT he sells that HDMI conversion kit through game-tech for the NES (which I have.) So a lot of the work has been figured out as it is, though a lot more would be needed still the groundwork is already partially done. He works with them, he does his own stuff, it would seem more logical to assume they'd go with what's working they already have some work into than starting from scratch. N64 tech went free range a few years back when the controllers started to pop up, so it's a fair possibility too. The library figuring in the US + unique Japanese and PAL games doesn't I believe top 400, but the base is there enough to justify it, and some games people love are just locked in IP/licensing rights hell (like Goldeneye and the other Rare titles too.)

People interested in Analogue products aren't looking for just "good enough". I don't think you understand the market for Analogue products. They should not be placed in the same category with most clone makers because their products are vastly superior in just about every way. I don't care if there were 100 cheap Genesis clones on the market because the fact is none of them fill the needs for those looking for a high quality clone with high accuracy, feature set and build quality.

 

There are tons of $15,000 - $20,000 cars on the market yet that doesn't stop $75,000+ cars from being sold.

 

So again, those cheap clones aren't real compeition because they aren't targeted to the same market of gamers.

 

Lastly, N64 isn't possible with the current FPGA prices and would take a shit long time to implement. Kevtris has already said he wouldn't want to tackle it alone.

 

An FPGA PS1 while possible technically will be a problem because it has a BIOS.

Edited May 7, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Tanooki]

I think I perfectly get the market for it, i own one. I just don't look down over my nose on people who don't feel the need to pay extra for one and what it does. I'm speaking of the mass market, this can't be that hard of a concept. Most people are just not going to pay up for it, a certain type will and given the place Sega is in the market it's less viable than some other platforms before it, given they're possible to do. And again I did agree the N64 wasn't viable yet as it is in my last post, but something like psx is which is far more interesting too than Sega. The BIOS isn't a problem people have been reverse engineering those for years now so they're not required, just takes work, and as you said, analogue products are a higher tier so the competence level is there to pull that off.

[brentonius]

As an audio guy I gotta chime in! The FPGA release of the Super NT did one amazing thing for me: it made playing SNES games just... sound....... incredible. I mean, I've never heard such crystal clear clarity from a 16 bit console. EVER.

 

Now, AT Games produces a nice shell. It looks good. But the most garbage aspect of any Genesis emulation is the sound. When I play the Sega Genesis, I can only play it on the model 1 because the YM2616 FM chip actually sounds better on it than any other Genesii (is that a word?). Yet it isn't perfect. It has that analogue hum or hiss to it. I've tried buying different models of the Genesis, I've tried opening it up and looking around, using better cables, isolating the equipment from interference, re-capping the system, re-capping the power supply... nothing works! I never get crystal clear audio.

 

​Now, let me tell you. I would definitely be the first to press the order button on an FPGA Genesis (without the 32X or CD... meh, don't need em). If the audio chip was an FPGA clone and made the Genesis sound as good as the Super NT made SNES games sound? Oh man, I'd be in audiophile heaven.

 

I would love it! I do not doubt that it would sound better than the best Genesis console... hands down.

 

So, I eagerly await, with drool and bloodshot eyes, arms outstretched and hands clenched, at the prospect of an FPGA Genesis. Just. For. The. Audio. ONLY.

Edited May 8, 2018 by brentonius

[phoenixdownita]

As an audio guy I gotta chime in! The FPGA release of the Super NT did one amazing thing for me: it made playing SNES games just... sound....... incredible. I mean, I've never heard such crystal clear clarity from a 16 bit console. EVER.

 

....

 

I would love it! I do not doubt that it would sound better than the best Genesis console... hands down.

 

So, I eagerly await, with drool and bloodshot eyes, arms outstretched and hands clenched, at the prospect of an FPGA Genesis. Just. For. The. Audio. ONLY.

How about one of these:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31989-Take-your-Genesis-audio-to-the-next-level-The-Mega-Amp-2-0-is-here!

(not an FPGA but it promises to give you good sound no matter what MD/Genny version you have)

[SegaSnatcher]

I think I perfectly get the market for it, i own one. I just don't look down over my nose on people who don't feel the need to pay extra for one and what it does. I'm speaking of the mass market, this can't be that hard of a concept. Most people are just not going to pay up for it, a certain type will and given the place Sega is in the market it's less viable than some other platforms before it, given they're possible to do. And again I did agree the N64 wasn't viable yet as it is in my last post, but something like psx is which is far more interesting too than Sega. The BIOS isn't a problem people have been reverse engineering those for years now so they're not required, just takes work, and as you said, analogue products are a higher tier so the competence level is there to pull that off.

But Analogue has never aimed at the mass market, so I don't get why you are so obsessed with that. They are boutique which means less sales, but at a more premium price because its a higher quality item.

 

If Analogue was aiming their products to sell 500K+ units then your point would be valid, but again we are talking boutique items here that will sell much less than that.

 

Also, I get the impression that you assume Genesis fans have lower standards than Nintendo fans and don't care as much about having a high quality experience.

[n_yohan]

Just a heads up that the Super Nt classic and SF are on the store ready for pre-order to ship in September.

[Riptide]

Just a heads up that the Super Nt classic and SF are on the store ready for pre-order to ship in September.

and the "transparent" model is marked as discontinued.

[Thrakk]

Someone mentioned it before but I would gladly take take the black model over the others if it was two shades of black like the artist rendering.

[Tanooki]

I do believe Genesis fans have a slightly lower bar for quality, the system speaks to it. But no I don't think their perceived desire for standards are any lower than you imagine. And I'm not obsessed I'm just looking at what would make the most sense where you could enter a space where nothing exists that would be more interesting to classic gamers. Both the PS1 (doable) and N64 (not for now) have nothing. Sega may not have an Analogue quality level device but it has been pretty played out at most tiers under that. I'm also hedging it on the fact that Sega is dead, Sony and Nintendo are still alive and kicking out hardware and have current living fanbases of their devices while Sega is a dead relic relegated to aging carts and consoles, sorry re-release ROM bundles in multiple formats, and dodgy quality SD (mostly) quality closed and open(to use carts/sd cards) devices.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Tanooki

[F34R]

Ugh. Lol. I have the black and the NA but I might grab a Fami. lol.

[RetrogamerX]

and the "transparent" model is marked as discontinued.

 

 

I wonder why? That model will go up in price in the future. I love mine.. Would like to get SF model,but not a priority atm though. Saving up for other stuff

[Great Hierophant]

How about one of these:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31989-Take-your-Genesis-audio-to-the-next-level-The-Mega-Amp-2-0-is-here!

(not an FPGA but it promises to give you good sound no matter what MD/Genny version you have)

 

There are boards available of the MegaAmp 2.0 from Helder, but Ace is making his own board because he is dissatisfied with the capacitor choices Helder used. Ace believes that the amp should be using electrolytic capacitors, not tantalums.

[Riptide]

 

 

I wonder why? That model will go up in price in the future. I love mine.. Would like to get SF model,but not a priority atm though. Saving up for other stuff

I would guess they got to many customers complaining that it didn't look at all like the renders.

After they sell out of their current black stock I wouldn't be surprised if they discontinue that model as well and only make further runs with the SNT/SFC varieties.

 

Edit:

Also regarding the transparent going up in price: Maybe? I feel like "rare because less popular" usually only results in higher value when theres a market to collect all the things. Dunno how many people are going to be trying to collect all the SNTs.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Riptide

[RetrogamerX]

I would guess they got to many customers complaining that it didn't look at all like the renders.

After they sell out of their current black stock I wouldn't be surprised if they discontinue that model as well and only make further runs with the SNT/SFC varieties.

 

Edit:

Also regarding the transparent going up in price: Maybe? I feel like "rare because less popular" usually only results in higher value when theres a market to collect all the things. Dunno how many people are going to be trying to collect all the SNTs.

 

 

There were a few that were disappointed, but not enough to stop production of the clear model I would think. Oh well, it's a decision analogue took for some reason? I'm happy I have mine. Maybe @Kevtris could shed some light on this.

Edited May 8, 2018 by RetrogamerX

[Keatah]

I strongly disagree with this statement.

 

Internet connectivity is the primary reason why many modern consoles and games will cease to function after future server sunset, or at least have extremely degraded usability. Firmware updates cannot be installed unless provided offline using late release physical game media. Physical games will be stuck without day one updates and may be unplayable or buggy. At the very least, bugfixes, future dlc content, free or paid, will be locked out forever. Furthermore download only games will be lost forever except through softmodfing and piracy.

 

Adding bluetooth or wifi chips to a retro console adds cost to the hardware and is unecessary if the console is to interface wired controllers and physical carts. Also internet connectivity requires money to run the servers which provide content. When the console is no longer commercially viable, the servers are turned off to save costs. Prividing downloadable firmware updates via an sd card ensures that the console will continue to be usable and upgradeable even long after the parent company (analogue in this case) is dead and gone. People can share firmwares or post them online, even add future functionality to them.

 

I'll agree to that. The classic gaming experience should remain simple, like it was back in the day. There are plenty of "connected" and "complicated" solutions which are server-dependent already out there today.

 

Either choice, simple or complex, is neither right nor wrong. For those of you liking the complexity and hoops modern consoles make you jump through, well, just get a modern console!

[Great Hierophant]

The cost to acquire Game and Feature Parity between the Super Nt and the SNES Classic :

 

SNES Classic inc. 21 games plus 2 controllers = $79.99 (plus $6.49 shipping + tax where applicable from gamestop (max $5.80)

 

Total SNES Classic Cost = $92.28

 

Super Nt = $189.99 (plus ~$39.50 shipping)

2 x Nintendo-manufactured SNES wired controllers in good condition = ~$35 (plus ~$8.00 shipping off eBay)

SNES Classic Special Chip Game Cartridge Cost = $216.12 (plus ~$25 shipping off eBay & RetroCircuits)

 

Total Super Nt Cost = $508.61

The Super Nt's cost list was designed to minimize cost as much as possible. It relies on the jailbreak firmware to load non-special chip games.

 

As you can see, the Super Nt is a much, much harder sell to the casual buyer compared to the SNES Classic.

[Thrakk]

I took the artist rendering and tried to match the style with photoshop.

[LewisD]

The only way Analogue could manufacture and release a product based on N64 is if they went the same route they did with the first NT and source original N64 specific Silicon Graphics chips to incorporate into their own motherboard design with hdmi output. Possible, but not likely.

 

The arguement that Sega fans somehow have lower standards than other gamers is slightly insulting. Genesis/Mega Drive was state of the art when it came out in the late 80s, with exclusive games you couldnt play anywhere else. I am just as fond of it as I am SNES.

[Keatah]

Those are all very real problems that affect modern consoles, but I think if Analogue is actually planning on making an FPGA Genesis they're going to need some bells and whistles. I love the Super Nt but I'm not going to rebuy every system they put out in FPGA form unless it can do things that the OG console can't. I think Analogue know what they're doing though and whatever they do next will probably blow us away.

 

This sort of thing happens in market saturation. A struggle to differentiate starts rearing its ugly head.

 

The main thing (and popular thing) going today is playing old games on new televisions and displays. That's an area most retro-consoles like the VCS and Intellivision and others from the 70's and 80's have difficulty with.

 

With older consoles you're either resigned to a CRT. Or setting up a rat's nest of wires and converters, mods, and even a "signal-conditioning" VCR.. to make it all work on a modern display.. and even then sub-optimally.

 

The absolute best solution to this problem is a console that generates a signal directly compatible with modern displays.

 

Software Emulation does this. FPGA-style consoles do this. A downside is one having to ignore the vocal minority purists barking about "proper CRT". Bullshit. The experience of gaming can and does change through time. It WILL change. And it has changed. Matrix dot-addressable displays are here for the foreseeable future.

 

Older beam-scanning displays are nothing more than curiosities for niche hobbyists burrowing down a rabbit hole.

[Keatah]

I also agree to disagree, internet connectivity isnt a solution.

 

I also dont wish for another FPGA console next year from analogue, rather hope that 2018 will be a software year that improves the capability for the current consoles.

 

Absolutely! Too many companies and individuals rely on "connectivity" and "internet" to add features and solve problems with their products. This ranges from daily patches to Windows OS all the way through a connected car or home automation. We don't want that crap anymore than is absolutely necessary. And in many cases it isn't necessary at all!

 

I'm also a fan of not creating new hardware and products at breakneck speed. All it does is end up in a race to bottom. The desire to outdo competition or perceived competition requires cost cutting that makes a product lesser. Witness the destruction of the PC ecosphere.

 

Again, using the PC as example.. there's daily updates to your OS. They can't get it right the 1st time. The timeframe of backward-forward compatibility is shrinking. The product lifecycle is too short to warrant the effort to maintain any sort of standard.

 

Let us not bring that ugliness into the what is supposed to be a simple trouble-free way of playing classic games!

[Thrakk]

Just testing

[Keatah]

IDK.... when Analogue releases a product they get glowing reviews from quite a few major review sources. I have yet to see any kind of glowing review for an AtGames console. Good reviews sell products. Mediocre ones, not so much.

 

That's right. And that's because AtGames is using the cheapest possible crap SoC and buggy emulation. Their business model is to get something out there as cheaply as possible. Racing to the bottom. If you look at their PCB construction, they use cheap glop-top stuff. Their emulator doesn't run much beyond what's built-in to the console. Witness all the conversions of games having to be done to get them functional. Nary an original rom works correctly on it!

 

Analogue's philosophy seems different, putting out a quality engineered product with a codebase having a rich heritage of over decade's worth of development. Quality materials, attention and CARE to details. Good emulation software takes time. And FPGA is emulation, just of a different nature. That's all that really need be said.

 

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There is a difference in making a product for the love of it and making a product to produce profit. Which do you prefer?