FPGA Based Videogame System

[LewisD]

Wow, I didnt realize I could twist so many panties on this thread with a single post.

 

Nobody cares about the aluminum casing. It is not a value. Quite frankly, it was a horrible business decision for Analogue, and I think they now realize that. This has nothing to do with me wanting my NT Mini to be more capable than yours, it is about maintaining value in something that is collectable. If Analogue makes more of the current NT Mini hardware, then I support everyone having core store access. But if a new NT Mini hardware iteration gets released at a lower price, there should be a sacrifice for that lower cost.

 

To those of you who will say but you guys have analog outs, and the new one wont...dont forget that Analogue is releasing a DAC at some point. Access to the core store is a defining feature of the original NT Mini and that should remain.

[Reaperman]

Nobody cares about the aluminum casing. It is not a value. Quite frankly, it was a horrible business decision for Analogue, and I think they now realize that.

 

Do they? Under-styled cases made of premium materials are kind of Analogue Interactive's whole shtick.

[Shadowgate]

Wow, I didnt realize I could twist so many panties on this thread with a single post.

 

Nobody cares about the aluminum casing. It is not a value. Quite frankly, it was a horrible business decision for Analogue, and I think they now realize that. This has nothing to do with me wanting my NT Mini to be more capable than yours, it is about maintaining value in something that is collectable. If Analogue makes more of the current NT Mini hardware, then I support everyone having core store access. But if a new NT Mini hardware iteration gets released at a lower price, there should be a sacrifice for that lower cost.

.

I wouldn't worry about upsetting people. Passions get high. It's quite strange how people can't fathom why nt mini isn't pumping out plastic nt mini lites on their flag ship ultra premium product.

 

I doubt they see it as a horrible business decision to release it in aluminum. The metal was a step up from making their consoles from wood. As beautiful as the neo geo cmvs system was it was prone to cracking and other issues.

 

Who knows. Perhaps now that they have gotten a taste of big time popularity they will step away from the low production, high end approach. Sacrificing quality on their flagship product to sell a budget model seems odd to me but it would certainly sell units.

[cybercylon]

Could have it both ways. Keep the premium stuff for the higher cost version, and remove some features from a lower cost version. If all someone wants to do is play NES games, the latter version might be a perfect fit. Anyhow, any lower price version will still be miles above the crap that is out there.

[Shadowgate]

Could have it both ways. Keep the premium stuff for the higher cost version, and remove some features from a lower cost version. If all someone wants to do is play NES games, the latter version might be a perfect fit. Anyhow, any lower price version will still be miles above the crap that is out there.

The Avs is a pretty solid system. Is there enough of a market left to redesign the Nt Mini? I dunno. I'm hoping they just start doing the Nt Mini again. It's novel knowing that it's value has ballooned so much in the secondary market but it's such a nice system that I hope more people get to experience it.

 

I predict it will be at least a couple years until it reaches a point of decent availability. Right now the demand is so high that if another batch is released it

is going to sell out quick and become a scalpers paradise.

 

I'm personally hoping for an NT Mini 2. A better fpga with more room to grow. Port some of those ui upgrades, hybrid scanlines, and polishing up the existing cores. I'd rather spend several hundred on one powerful system than a couple hundred on multiple stand alone. Even if that meant I had to buy cores in a core store like situation. As long as it isn't a subscription service.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Shadowgate

[Andromeda Stardust]

Let's not pretend the flip side of that argument isnt just as self serving. People wanting Analogue to compromise its brand for a cheaper model so they can benefit. They advertised the Nt Mini as a very exclusive boutique like item. Don't act surprised the people who bought into that want the item remaining high end. You wouldn't expect Astell & Kern to make a budget model.

Well they've proven they can provide paramount quality in the Super NT with a more powerful chip for less than half the cost of the NT mini. If they can reach a larger market by bringing down the cost without compromising quality, it doesn't do their reputation harm. Analogue isn't like Louis Vuitton or Prada handbags where the entire point of brand prestige is centered around the high cost of entry.

 

Analogue doesn't work like that. If they can sell 10,000 consoles at $200 or 2,000 consoles at $450, and both have similar markups, then they fare to earn more income at the cheaper price point. So if a lower entry price means far more sales and higher profit, then that lower entry price becomes the new target. Analogue learned this with the manufacturing issues they had milling the aluminum, and the success of the Super NT with it's nicely constructed abs case. I've seen a lot of cheap plastic products and this is not one of them.

 

So it is still unparalleled quality but with a reasonable price point. I think it is a wise strategy moving forward, and I would gladly buy a Genesis "Mega NT" system from them, assuming it was the same build quality as the Super NT.

[Tanooki]

I'm not going to multiquote...

 

Look the Super NT showed as kosmic said a superior interior product could be released at a far lower price point without sacrificing quality unless a metal box for your console is a loss, which I think many would agree isn't. Sure the old NT is a boutique item, no doubt, but that point made of why not have that, but also a budget version of the NES NT console, price it along side the Super NT, would be a very smart move. Why limit yourself? Reaching a larger audience wouldn't cheaper their value, and they could rake in a lot more having a far bigger pool of interested people wanting what kevtris cooked up with his awesome FPGA. I wasn't going to shell that amount of money on that old metal box, wanted it, but no. It took me awhile to get a cheap nice top loader, but once I did, and when the hidef nes kit came back in stock, I got my system+labor+kit done for around $250 or so, that's a lot less than $450-500 for a bare bones system. Had I been able to get a Super NT priced level of system pre-made like that I would not have even bothered and just bought it.

 

I think kosmic is onto it though about the Super NT, it's ABS plastic, but damn it's rugged like the original SNES was, a good 1st party level of quality/thickness to it against age, time and abuse. It's not Hyperturd or Retroshat garbage box.

[+eebuckeye]

I think a combined NT mini and Super NT mini would be awesome in a single product and I believe it could be done based on the better FPGA in the Super NT mini. $350 or 400 for both with two cart slots?

[brentonius]

I realize that Im a sample size of one, but even though I already own an NES and a Retro AVS, I would buy an an NT Mini $200ish version for sure. I easily ponied up for the Super NT but I draw the line at $250 for a retro system. The price tag of the original NT Mini is a no go. Just cant do it. However Id consider one under $250. Again, just a sample size of one here but Im betting there would be a bunch of others just like me who would think again with a plastic shell and a lower price point.

[LewisD]

Genesis "Mega NT" system

?

 

I cant wait until the Genesis FPGA product is released so we can stop with these idiotic naming conventions.

[Intense.Mark]

Im good with either aluminum or plastic.If Analogue will open a poll or kickstarter, I'm ok with that. The Atari VCS got a huge funding at kickstarter and we don't even know what it's capable of.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Intense.Mark

[Andromeda Stardust]

Im good with either aluminum or plastic.If Analogue will open a poll or kickstarter, I'm ok with that. The Atari VCS got a huge funding at kickstarter and we don't even know what it's capable of.

Let's put it like this: unless the case is hand carved out of imperial jade by Bhuddist monks, and encrusted with gold inlay and blood diamonds, or possibly fabricated out of some equally unobtainable and potentially unethical substance (like white rhino horns), some snobbish collector somewhere on the internets is going to complain about it.

[Tanooki]

I realize that Im a sample size of one, but even though I already own an NES and a Retro AVS, I would buy an an NT Mini $200ish version for sure. I easily ponied up for the Super NT but I draw the line at $250 for a retro system. The price tag of the original NT Mini is a no go. Just cant do it. However Id consider one under $250. Again, just a sample size of one here but Im betting there would be a bunch of others just like me who would think again with a plastic shell and a lower price point.

You're not alone I said as much just above your post. The price was a problem alone for me that I went as far as taking a long time to find a cheap top loader, then lined up a generous soul to mod the thing, and waited until fairly recently the last time the hidef nes kit came back in stock. I got into it in the end for half the price of the original NT, and my top loader was complete, while the NT had no controller. 200-250 is my cut off point as well for an old system player like that, no matter how nice it is.

[phoenixdownita]

Wrt reverse engineer BIOSes ... it is possible but you can only use them legally if you prove that it was done via clean room processes

Wrt allowing customers to "bring your own BIOS" .... it's a non starter, it's been discussed to death, commercial entities need to deliver turn-key solutions, as soon as it involves intermediary steps they cannot even legally describe it's a no-go (downloading a BIOS is illegal in many countries unless you own the original hardware, and even in that case in some countries you still can't download it you have to dump it yourself .... )

Wrt Unibios, I don't think it is a clean room design (I'm pretty sure Razoola debugged the official BIOS and that would taint the process) but as long as you have an AES/MVS for real then you're in possession of the original BIOS (or you should) so there's no infringing per se in that setup (again take it with a grain of salt, I'd consider it a grey/gray area at best).

 

To the gentleman that stated that the Core Store should be the differentiating factor for the first batch of Nt Mini (as opposed to a cheaper version) ... well that was never officially released by Analogue was it? kevtris stated it was done as unpaid work and I believe him, as such the Nt Mini should be only judged based upon the officially supported firmware wrt what it offers as a "boutique item", if a new cheaper edition comes around nobody knows if the Firmware Fairy would do its magic or not .... but if a Core Store is not supported at all I believe it would be a half disappointment.

 

Yes, I admit I was hoping some of the Core Store would be available by now on the Super Nt, let's take out the Nintendo systems [NES, GB, GBC] just so big N keeps at bay I still would enjoy the SMS, CV, 7800, 2600 .... we will see. Kevtris is busy at work (paid work) in a short few months we'll all know what comes out (MD likely or PCE).

 

Kevtris stated that a PS1 level console could be done in FPGA but I am not sure without Sony' blessing for the BIOS how much of a can of worms that could be, but then again maybe Analogue was able to put an agreement in place with Sony and avoid all issues, who knows.

[LewisD]

Analogue could get around the bios legality issue as it pertains to Neo Geo by perhaps licensing/working with SNK Playmore. It would add to the product’s price, but would possibly allow for some games included in the firmware along with the ability for authentic wireless controllers to be included as well or sold separately,

[Andromeda Stardust]

Analogue could get around the bios legality issue as it pertains to Neo Geo by perhaps licensing/working with SNK Playmore. It would add to the products price, but would possibly allow for some games included in the firmware along with the ability for authentic wireless controllers to be included as well or sold separately,

And licensing the bios would exclude within the contract the possibility of any jailbreak, thereby killing any desirability the fpga had.

[phoenixdownita]

And licensing the bios would exclude within the contract the possibility of any jailbreak, thereby killing any desirability the fpga had.

I would not be so categorical, an HDMI NG (AES & MVS cart slots) even without JB is something I'd be interested, hopefully at least Unibios can be sideloaded and that would make the "banana" cart usable

[Riptide]

I don't think an NT Mini Plastic Edition has a chance of being a viable product without the core store. The AVS has been out for awhile now, not sure how many people are left who want a low cost HDMI FPGA NES that don't already have one. The number of people that want a low cost core store FPGA solution is probably higher, but is it high enough to justify the development and tooling to make the plastic edition a reality? I'm not sure. It would need two cartridge slots, so its a bit more complicated than taking the Super NT and changing the connectors. Regardless of the exact details of how it happens, I would like to see some type of product sold that can load Kevtris's awesome cores. While I do like the fact that my NT Mini has basically doubled in value since I bought it, the reality is that its very unlikely I'll ever sell it. Whats more likely is that some electronic component on its circuit board will fail and I'll be looking to purchase a new solution. (serial number weirdness anyone? hmmm) Yes part of Analogue's shtick is selling a boutique product, but I think they could release something thats core store compatible without making NT Mini owners feel like their purchase wasn't completely obsoleted.

[Shadowgate]

Dang the last Nt Mini went for $1850. Awesome bundle but wow. I wonder if we will see it break $2000

[Intense.Mark]

I don't think an NT Mini Plastic Edition has a chance of being a viable product without the core store. The AVS has been out for awhile now, not sure how many people are left who want a low cost HDMI FPGA NES that don't already have one. The number of people that want a low cost core store FPGA solution is probably higher, but is it high enough to justify the development and tooling to make the plastic edition a reality? I'm not sure. It would need two cartridge slots, so its a bit more complicated than taking the Super NT and changing the connectors. Regardless of the exact details of how it happens, I would like to see some type of product sold that can load Kevtris's awesome cores. While I do like the fact that my NT Mini has basically doubled in value since I bought it, the reality is that its very unlikely I'll ever sell it. Whats more likely is that some electronic component on its circuit board will fail and I'll be looking to purchase a new solution. (serial number weirdness anyone? hmmm) Yes part of Analogue's shtick is selling a boutique product, but I think they could release something thats core store compatible without making NT Mini owners feel like their purchase wasn't completely obsoleted.

Analogue sells their products at limited quantities starting with the CMVS. Once all of the warranties have expired and some of these FPGA systems begin to fail, will Analogue still support their own products? They are the only one manufacturing a SNES FPGA and 1 out of 2 with the NES FPGA right now.

 

I've read somewhere that an original Analogue CMVS owner had issues with his system and Analogue support wasn't able to help him because they are not producing it anymore.

 

I see one good advantage of the RetroUSB AVS. Bunnyboy is the one running his own store so if the device is out of warranty, you can probably have a paid support and/or buy spare parts.

 

I hope Kevtris starts his own store as well. The FPGA systems will not be produced in limited quantities. We'll get better support from him than with Analogue.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Intense.Mark

[Toth]

Dang the last Nt Mini went for $1850. Awesome bundle but wow. I wonder if we will see it break $2000

Wow! I bought two of them. I didn't buy two knowing I could sell one for a profit though. I wanted a backup in case my primary one died. I wanted to ensure I had an accurate HDMI NES for the rest of my days. I better not tell my wife I could make $1200 by selling the one that sits in the closet...

 

Since then I have actually dabbled a bit in HiDefNes modding and for the people who can't spend $1800 on an Nt Mini I would suggest a hidefnes. I actually use my hidefnes (or an NES RGB I modded when I want to use a CRT) more because it feels more authentic. I have sold a couple of those as well. If you like soldering they are kind of fun to mod.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Toth

[F34R]

Dang the last Nt Mini went for $1850. Awesome bundle but wow. I wonder if we will see it break $2000

If I weren't so in LOVE with mine, I'd sell it just to see if I could break $2,000 lol. Honestly, I don't think I could sell it for $5,000. The money for it would be awesome, but I'd feel like I lost something.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Analogue sells their products at limited quantities starting with the CMVS. Once all of the warranties have expired and some of these FPGA systems begin to fail, will Analogue still support their own products? They are the only one manufacturing a SNES FPGA and 1 out of 2 with the NES FPGA right now.

 

I've read somewhere that an original Analogue CMVS owner had issues with his system and Analogue support wasn't able to help him because they are not producing it anymore.

 

I see one good advantage of the RetroUSB AVS. Bunnyboy is the one running his own store so if the device is out of warranty, you can probably have a paid support and/or buy spare parts.

 

I hope Kevtris starts his own store as well. The FPGA systems will not be produced in limited quantities. We'll get better support from him than with Analogue.

I am one of those who bought the AVS, and do not regret it one bit. I bought the Super NT as well.

 

Let's look at facts. The AVS has two cartridge ports, four controller ports, the EXP connector, and 720p. It's inferior to the NT Mini FPGA which is also inferior to the Super NT FPGA system which sells for a similar price point as the AVS. The analog circuitry costs additional money. The Aluminum shell costs a boatload and is difficult to manufacture.

 

Analogue has a fairly modular system now which could be adapted for multiple systems. The Famicom and NES slots do not need discrete inputs provided the user does not populate both cart slots at once. The level translation circuitry could potentially provide fault protection and safeguard against multiple carts inserted. A proposed SMS/Genesis/MD console with two cart slots would be similar setup to the NT Mini and AVS dual cart slots. AVS ingeniously dodged this issue by parallel connecting both cart busses and offsetting them at right angles making it impossible to populate both connectors at once.

 

Going forward, it might be easier for Analog to recycle their existing Super NT FPGA setup for Genesis, cost reduced NES, and other future consoles. It seems like Analogue is not interested in continuing the core store concept, and if so, so be it. Going forward a cost reduced NT Mini based off the Super NT hardware, with NES ROM loading and superior scalars. Then they can develop the same hardware for multiple consoles with different cart slot and controller configurations.

 

Analogue clearly is not interested in doing the Retron5 approach with all in console that plays everything. If they wanna dedicate resources to produce the best clone systems available for every platform, so be it. Their systems are worth the entry fee. If the "core store" has potential to harm future profits or go against their business strategy, then it is their right to put a lid on it. Kevtris works for Analgue now, so it's not like he can just violate his contract. The ROM loading JB workaround IMO is an acceptable compromise between "core store" and bowing to fans' wishes.

[Tanooki]

I think this whole panty twist over the core store is just blown entirely out of proportion. To even make the claim it not existing would make a product not viable is asinine considering how well the Super NT has moved, is moving, and will move as they come back into stock on various models (color shell) of it. They found something far better that worked, not pricing themselves out of the range of all but those who are rich with 3-4 figure easily flowing income that doesn't sacrifice quality of game play implementation. The new core as pointed out can be adapted, that setup there has a window of opportunity to go as far as something like a ps1 was said, so Genesis is entirely in the realm. Away from their own product the AVS shows that you can get quality with extras even too (2 slots, 4 ports) at that around $200 price point the HiDef NES sits at which that kit flies out of stock pretty fast when it comes into supply.

 

Speaking of that JB workaround core, that still being developed? It was all this buzz, then dead.

[cacophony]

 

Speaking of that JB workaround core, that still being developed? It was all this buzz, then dead.

 

JB releases are tied to official FW releases, so you probably won't see the next JB update until the next official update (music player, scanlines redo?)