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FPGA Based Videogame System


kevtris

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

682 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...


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I see one good advantage of the RetroUSB AVS. Bunnyboy is the one running his own store so if the device is out of warranty, you can probably have a paid support and/or buy spare parts.

I can only say good things about RetroUSB's support. They have been bending over backwards for people that have issues with their systems, even well after the warranty period.

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I can only say good things about RetroUSB's support. They have been bending over backwards for people that have issues with their systems, even well after the warranty period.

Very close to just ordering one. The only thing holding me back is that I'm worried that the 720p output will cause lag when upscaled to 4K. Edited by dgdgagdae
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It seems like Analogue is not interested in continuing the core store concept, and if so, so be it. ...... If the "core store" has potential to harm future profits or go against their business strategy, then it is their right to put a lid on it.

 

Well to be fair, the "above-the-table" official line is they were never involved in any core store idea for their product and simply deemed it not-supported. :)

 

And obviously so as they have never marketed the Super NT's ability to play off SD, nor the NT Mini's ability to transform into a Sega Master System or Colecovision... but can you imagine if they did. :lol:

Edited by NE146
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Very close to just ordering one. The only thing holding me back is that I'm worried that the 720p output will cause lag when upscaled to 4K.

 

It looks to me like 4k is an even multiple of 720p in all directions, right? As long as your TV's not doing anything stupid to the image, I would imagine it works out even better than it did for all the 1080p users. It ran well for me at 1080p, and I'm more than a bit picky.

Edited by Reaperman
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Very close to just ordering one. The only thing holding me back is that I'm worried that the 720p output will cause lag when upscaled to 4K.

 

Hmm... got mine in the mail a week ago. Looks fine enough to me at 1080p. I guess I can try it on my 4K display.

 

Since there is no analog to digital conversion, I wonder how much lag would get added as long as your display isn't doing anything weird.

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A couple of months ago, someone on the then-named Unofficial Analogue Discord asked why the available official documentation for the Super Nt was so sparse and lacking in detail. Someone looked to my blog articles on the Super Nt as fairly comprehensive and suggested I do it. I have had no experience writing a manual before and thought it would take forever to do. Well, after two-to-three nights of hard work, I have finished an unofficial manual for the Super Nt. It describes the system and all the important options in detail. As it discusses both official and unofficial jailbreak features, it cannot be endorsed by Analogue. I hope someone finds it useful.

 

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A couple of months ago, someone on the then-named Unofficial Analogue Discord asked why the available official documentation for the Super Nt was so sparse and lacking in detail. Someone looked to my blog articles on the Super Nt as fairly comprehensive and suggested I do it. I have had no experience writing a manual before and thought it would take forever to do. Well, after two-to-three nights of hard work, I have finished an unofficial manual for the Super Nt. It describes the system and all the important options in detail. As it discusses both official and unofficial jailbreak features, it cannot be endorsed by Analogue. I hope someone finds it useful.

 

Super Nt Unofficial Manual v4.5-v6.6 06-05-18.pdf

Good job on the manual. I have a question, for the 8:7 ratio. Is there any shimmering when interpolation is off? I think 8:7 should have been added as one of the default option IMO. Edited by Intense.Mark
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Regarding the lifespan of FPGA systems as one poster noted earlier, how robust is the FPGA in comparison to other data storage methods? Over time, storage mediums lose their ability to actually contain what was originally programmed into them. Pressed CDs, for example, last 100 or so years. Burned CDs, a mere 5 years or up to 15 if you're lucky. Cassettes degrade... even computer chips degrade. But I know that a cartridge ROM from a SNES gamepack is theoretically able to last 10,000 years or more. In the case of cart roms, that information has been hard-pressed into them... the data is actually a physical thing. EPROMs are not so robust, they can be erased.

 

I wonder how well the Super NT, NT Mini, and Retro AVS will hold up over the years?

 

Looking at my retro collection...

 

- My NES is kickin butt, still performing admirably after all these years. In fact, I've never come across an NES (except one out of about a hundred) that had a bad chip.

- Several SNES consoles seemed to have bad chips. I had a very low success rate of 'saving' the non-functional units I'd find in the wild (thanks again to Kevtris for his service to gaming humanity/history!)

- I've never come across a bad NES, SNES game cart ROM

- Curiously, I've had Sega Genesis carts that just wouldn't work.... I think the chips were bad, as I transferred to new boards, and didn't work. Note, that I only came across two of these... ever.

 

So yeah, I guess everything wastes away and dies at some point. I wonder where FPGA consoles are on that spectrum?

Edited by brentonius
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We all know our NES, SNES, Genesis are built to last. I'm not saying there aren't any issues but if something failed, we can have it repaired. Just in case it's unrepairable, there's a lot of those devices out there.

 

Just how long programmed data on an FPGA last? Only FPGA programmers would know.

 

It's a scary thought that if your NT mini dies and there's no aftermarket support, your replacement would cost twice on eBay.

Edited by Intense.Mark
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Just how long programmed data on an FPGA last? Only FPGA programmers would know.

 

I'm pretty sure it only lasts until you power the unit off. In other words, the Nt Mini reprograms the fpga on every boot. On the JB firmware it will also reprograms the fpga every time you switch cores, and that process is a bit slower b/c it's reading the instructions from the slower to access sd card. So maybe your question is how many times can the fpga be programmed? That number is probably going to exceed what any normal person will do with the Nt Mini over the course of a lifetime.

 

But if people start having issues with the Nt Mini that Analogue doesn't support I'm sure there will be somebody in the community that can fix them for a reasonable fee.

Edited by cacophony
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"Altera does not specify the number of times you can reprogram or reconfigure FPGA devices because these devices are SRAM-based. An SRAM-based device can be reconfigured as often as a design requires; there is no specific limit."

 

https://www.altera.com/support/support-resources/knowledge-base/solutions/rd07022001_8599.html

 

NOTE: not all FPGA are SRAM based but the ones we are talking about here are.

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Regarding the lifespan of FPGA systems as one poster noted earlier, how robust is the FPGA in comparison to other data storage methods? Over time, storage mediums lose their ability to actually contain what was originally programmed into them. Pressed CDs, for example, last 100 or so years. Burned CDs, a mere 5 years or up to 15 if you're lucky. Cassettes degrade... even computer chips degrade. But I know that a cartridge ROM from a SNES gamepack is theoretically able to last 10,000 years or more. In the case of cart roms, that information has been hard-pressed into them... the data is actually a physical thing. EPROMs are not so robust, they can be erased.

 

While floppy disks and hard drives can go bad after 5 years. I still have some name brand floppy disks that are working fine after 34 years. I also have 3.5 inch disks from the late 80’s that work fine with all the data intact.

 

Pressed optical discs on CD, DVD, and Blu-ray can last up to 1,000 years if there is no impurities in the water, etc. Writable CD’s, DVD’s, and Blu-ray discs that are cheap name brands can last up to 100 years, however writable optical discs that use M disk technology are designed to last a minimum of 1,000 years. Optical discs are immune to EMP’s, and EMI/RFI interference. I have never heard of a cartridge rom being designed to last 10,000 years or more (If World War 3 were to occur sometime over the next 1,000 years a strong EMP would destroy the cartridge rom image). If I was looking for long term storage that had the potential to last longer then 1,000 years for a time capsule, I would go with a 100GB or 128GB BDXL Blu-ray disc and store the optical drive in a EMP bag. The optical drive might last a maximum of 100 years under ideal storage conditions, and then some future society would need to repair or start making BD-ROM drives again.

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Good job on the manual. I have a question, for the 8:7 ratio. Is there any shimmering when interpolation is off? I think 8:7 should have been added as one of the default option IMO.

 

There is the potential for shimmering when the interpolation is off and you are using the 8:7 aspect ratio option. I am pretty sure that the Super Nt defaults to 8:7 with horizontal interpolation enabled in 1080p mode.

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Interestingly, the Nt Mini has its NES Core baked into the flashable firmware, so when you turn the system on it automatically loads that core. Officially that firmware is limited to running NES and Famicom cartridges and playing NSF files. Unofficially you can load one additional core to simulate another supported system like the Game Boy or Atari 2600. This takes about 20 seconds principally because the Core is being loaded from an SD card, not internal flash. Control of the system is handed over to that core, but if you wish to return to using the NES Core, the switch back is near-instantaneous. The NES Core can work in conjunction with another Core, which is why Kevtris devoted the second core to the simulation of more complex NES mappers like the MMC5.

Edited by Great Hierophant
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Regarding the lifespan of FPGA systems as one poster noted earlier, how robust is the FPGA in comparison to other data storage methods? Over time, storage mediums lose their ability to actually contain what was originally programmed into them. Pressed CDs, for example, last 100 or so years. Burned CDs, a mere 5 years or up to 15 if you're lucky. Cassettes degrade... even computer chips degrade. But I know that a cartridge ROM from a SNES gamepack is theoretically able to last 10,000 years or more. In the case of cart roms, that information has been hard-pressed into them... the data is actually a physical thing. EPROMs are not so robust, they can be erased.

 

I wonder how well the Super NT, NT Mini, and Retro AVS will hold up over the years?

 

Looking at my retro collection...

 

- My NES is kickin butt, still performing admirably after all these years. In fact, I've never come across an NES (except one out of about a hundred) that had a bad chip.

- Several SNES consoles seemed to have bad chips. I had a very low success rate of 'saving' the non-functional units I'd find in the wild (thanks again to Kevtris for his service to gaming humanity/history!)

- I've never come across a bad NES, SNES game cart ROM

- Curiously, I've had Sega Genesis carts that just wouldn't work.... I think the chips were bad, as I transferred to new boards, and didn't work. Note, that I only came across two of these... ever.

 

So yeah, I guess everything wastes away and dies at some point. I wonder where FPGA consoles are on that spectrum?

Only bad game I've come across is Yoshi's Island which seems to be common and also the black screen of death SNES systems. I have had one of those. I think the NES will outlast the SNES due to that. Hopefully only certain SNES systems will get that black screen of death but it seems pretty common.

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I have finished an unofficial manual for the Super Nt. It describes the system and all the important options in detail. As it discusses both official and unofficial jailbreak features, it cannot be endorsed by Analogue. I hope someone finds it useful.

 

attachicon.gifSuper Nt Unofficial Manual v4.5-v6.6 06-05-18.pdf

Great work! I found a small typo on page 15 (should be "and are"): "either 60fps or 59.94fps are are generally"
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If this:

I think this whole panty twist over the core store is just blown entirely out of proportion. To even make the claim it not existing would make a product not viable is asinine considering how well the Super NT has moved, is moving, and will move as they come back into stock on various models (color shell) of it. They found something far better that worked, not pricing themselves out of the range of all but those who are rich with 3-4 figure easily flowing income that doesn't sacrifice quality of game play implementation.

 

Was in response to this:

I don't think an NT Mini Plastic Edition has a chance of being a viable product without the core store.

 

Please see this:

I don't think an NT Mini Plastic Edition has a chance of being a viable product without the core store. The AVS has been out for awhile now, not sure how many people are left who want a low cost HDMI FPGA NES that don't already have one. The number of people that want a low cost core store FPGA solution is probably higher, but is it high enough to justify the development and tooling to make the plastic edition a reality? I'm not sure. It would need two cartridge slots, so its a bit more complicated than taking the Super NT and changing the connectors.

and consider the difference between releasing a new product with no direct competitor (FPGA SNES) and re-releasing a demake of a previous product (FPGA NES) which has had an alternative for sale for quite some time.

 

Else:

carry on

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So I've finally received my RAM adapter today and wanted to try it out with this: http://magicwildcard.com/

which is basically a microSD version of the FDS Stick. The RAM adapter itself works fine, as does the Magic Wild Card since both loaded without issues on two different AV Famicom consoles.

 

However, when trying to use them on the NT Mini on the other hand, i'm getting this:

 

 

GdXHgRV.png

 

 

I guess I got unlucky and picked one of the revisions that doesn't play nicely with the NT Mini...

Anyone got any other ideas on what the problem could be?

Also, mine is one of the ealier models of RAM adapters with a smooth top shell. For anyone who has one and an Nt Mini without issues, what kind do you have?

 

Are Analogue / Kevtris aware of this? Have they said anything about maybe fixing it in the future? I know Kevtris is busy right now and I'm not trying to push for an update immediate but a fix sometime in the future would be appreciated.

Edited by infinest
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Regarding the lifespan of FPGA systems as one poster noted earlier, how robust is the FPGA in comparison to other data storage methods? Over time, storage mediums lose their ability to actually contain what was originally programmed into them. Pressed CDs, for example, last 100 or so years. Burned CDs, a mere 5 years or up to 15 if you're lucky. Cassettes degrade... even computer chips degrade. But I know that a cartridge ROM from a SNES gamepack is theoretically able to last 10,000 years or more. In the case of cart roms, that information has been hard-pressed into them... the data is actually a physical thing. EPROMs are not so robust, they can be erased.

 

So yeah, I guess everything wastes away and dies at some point. I wonder where FPGA consoles are on that spectrum?
Just how long programmed data on an FPGA last? Only FPGA programmers would know.

 

The lifespan is likely to be based on whatever EEPROM or Flash memory is in use. I'm fairly certain there's a bootloader or startup/bios of some sort. So however long that lasts.

 

Anyone wanting more concrete answers can look at the datasheets for the parts or ask the boss.

 

---

 

It would be interesting to find out who/where you got the 10,000 year lifespan for mask ROMS. The projected duration of data retention for a PROM or Mask ROM is about 200 years in the average living room environment. What with the humidity and temperature cycles and metal migration. Perhaps longer if stored in a controlled environment. This from National Semiconductor literature in the 1970's discussing accelerated testing.

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So I've finally received my RAM adapter today and wanted to try it out with this: http://magicwildcard.com/

which is basically a microSD version of the FDS Stick. The RAM adapter itself works fine, as does the Magic Wild Card since both loaded without issues on two different AV Famicom consoles.

 

However, when trying to use them on the NT Mini on the other hand, i'm getting this:

 

 

GdXHgRV.png

 

 

I guess I got unlucky and picked one of the revisions that doesn't play nicely with the NT Mini...

Anyone got any other ideas on what the problem could be?

Also, mine is one of the ealier models of RAM adapters with a smooth top shell. For anyone who has one and an Nt Mini without issues, what kind do you have?

 

Are Analogue / Kevtris aware of this? Have they said anything about maybe fixing it in the future? I know Kevtris is busy right now and I'm not trying to push for an update immediate but a fix sometime in the future would be appreciated.

Someone a zillion pages or so (and back at a point when Kevtris was more active in this thread) showed evidence that the NT Mini wasn't reading the RAM adapter properly, so I believe that Kevtris is aware. It's just a matter of when he'll have time to work on the NT Mini again.

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I stand by my claim riptide and it was you and general as I've seen a few others who cared about that voice it. The core store is pretty much lacking value to most. The cutting of the consumer price of the system down to a SuperNT level I think would not only negate but grow beyond those complaining about such a trivial loss. Given what the hardware is capable of doing alone and the selections it has for internal customization of the feature set it's a great device for those using kits, running boots, or using original cartridges still. Core Store is nothing but a fluffy perk, an option, not a requirement for enjoyment. The alternative is the AVS obviously, but I would think the capabilities of kevtris with the better FPGA and the Analogue reputation would help drive the product forward as well. Pricing yourself out just for a fluff option and because something else already exists isn't good enough not to do it.

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I stand by my claim riptide and it was you and general as I've seen a few others who cared about that voice it. The core store is pretty much lacking value to most. The cutting of the consumer price of the system down to a SuperNT level I think would not only negate but grow beyond those complaining about such a trivial loss. Given what the hardware is capable of doing alone and the selections it has for internal customization of the feature set it's a great device for those using kits, running boots, or using original cartridges still. Core Store is nothing but a fluffy perk, an option, not a requirement for enjoyment. The alternative is the AVS obviously, but I would think the capabilities of kevtris with the better FPGA and the Analogue reputation would help drive the product forward as well. Pricing yourself out just for a fluff option and because something else already exists isn't good enough not to do it.

 

A theoretical NT Mini PE would have the following advantages over an AVS:

1080p

NSF Player

in game menu

color palettes

It would also have a disadvantage in the lack of the online scoreboard thing.

How many people do you think didn't buy an AVS because they considered one or more of the above a deal breaker?

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Has anyone figured out how to make their own Analogue NT from FPGA devkit boards? I'd rather not spend thousands on eBay or hope beyond hope that they decide to stock more. Also, rely on unofficial firmware for features I actually buy the product for.

 

Not one that runs Kevtris's cores. If you want to run other cores check out the MISTer.

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