FPGA Based Videogame System

[Reaperman]

7800/2600 cores are largely done so they do make the most obvious sense. 2600 is the first thing most people associate with atari, and the older I get, the more I just love 7800 arcade ports, which somehow seem in an odd way more charming than more advanced 8-bit systems of the era. Somehow I've developed a special soft spot for rampage and galaga on 7800, specifically. I'd say my NT mini spends more of its time in 7800 land than any other core.

 

But If I had to pick one atari to live the rest of my life with, it'd have to be the A8/xegs. There's somewhere north of 20k games for the darn thing, so the library is huge. Quality-wise, a lot of the models don't even output svideo (in stock form), and it's really hard to go back to upscaled composite once you've tasted...better. But they're probably a hugely complex beasts if one goes down the rabbit holes of custom OSes and peripherals.

 

I'm waiting for any PRGE retro gaming surprises before I push the preorder button on the Mega SG, but I did already go for that controller.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Reaperman

[demkca]

I'm assuming the Mega SG is being made in china. With it having the same price point as the SNT, I wonder if they took into account the 25% tariffs that go into effect at the beginning of next year.

[cybercylon]

This is off topic... but since people have mentioning the Super SD System 3, does anyone know if the problems have been fixed. The retro rgb guys pointed out some in the last run (something wasn't even soldered correctly . For $300, I expect things to be fairly free of issues.

 

I haven't pulled the trigger on the Mega SG yet either. For example, if the Super SD System 3 has fewer issues' I'd rather kiss my engine block and everdrive good bye.

Edited October 20, 2018 by cybercylon

[brentonius]

This is off topic... but since people have mentioning the Super SD System 3, does anyone know if the problems have been fixed. The retro rgb guys pointed out some in the last run (something wasn't even soldered correctly . For $300, I expect things to be fairly free of issues.

 

I haven't pulled the trigger on the Mega SG yet either. For example, if the Super SD System 3 has fewer issues' I'd rather kiss my engine block and everdrive good bye.

 

I feel like $300 is a pretty big ask for a unit that attaches to older hardware. So, personally, I feel like waiting for a while to see what Analogue comes up with. It would be nice if they released a full fledged solution that covers the PC Engine/TG16 plus CD... and it cost around $200.

[SegaSnatcher]

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk

I feel a Neo-Geo would be fairly popular at a $200 price. You have to remember the reason it wasn't successful wasn't because a lack of interest, it was the price point that hurt it. People wanted a Neo-Geo they just couldn't afford it.

 

A $200 Neo-Geo would likely sell very well.

Edited October 20, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Reaperman]

Or maybe now it's time for the all-in-one that covers the NtMini+SuperNt+MegaSg (Zimba3K finally).

 

These cute little brand-themed systems are great, but the dream is always to own the 'the sytem to end all systems,' right?

what would zimba 3000 look like? Tons of joystick/cart ports everywhere, or maybe stackable, front-loading addons?

Would the FPGA be upgradable? Is that even an option? Maybe we could drop the 'jailbreak' term entirely and just be honest.

Will homebrewers ever make games for retro system configurations that never actually existed? How about arcade stuff?

 

Thinking back on all the experiences I've had in gaming, from age 3 on up, I can't think of many more memorable than those NT Mini core updates coming one-at-a-time. It was like christmas, over and over again, getting to experience a system in better quality than I'd ever dreamed. From consoles I was familiar with, to some I'll probably never see. I don't think it would have made the impact if they all came out at once, and I don't think I would have spent as much time with each one.

It was incredible, and I hope it can all happen again.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Reaperman

[NE146]

,,, People wanted a Neo-Geo they just couldn't afford it.

 

A $200 Neo-Geo would likely sell very well.

 

..with the off-chance it could potentially load ROMS? I think so as well. I was one of those people. Even though I had a TG16/Genesis/& Super Nintendo and would have easily gotten another current console, but with carts going for $200 a pop? That was waay too ridiculous a price for me in my 20's

[F34R]

So, since we are in the Genesis cycle now, I'll tell a funny, frustrating, and overall funny lol, story.

 

So I got excited, wanted to get a Sega CD, Model 2. Kinda high on ebay, but whatever.. I'll do it. So I was bidding on a couple, and then had a few I was doing best offer with. I didn't realize one of the best offer items actually had "sega cd does not work" in the description and I got it for $140. Genesis original, with the sega cd model 2, a handful of carts and cd's. I get it today, and I was like, why are things missing, and this thing doesn't work. I looked at it and realized I accepted the wrong one!!! smh. Contacted the seller, but hadn't heard back after a few hours. So I said, what the heck, let's see if we can troubleshoot it.

 

Problem is, I thought it would have an AV cable, and well, I don't have one lol. So, I had to get creative. After some fiddling around, this is what I got. Yes, it looks like crap, but that's to be expected lol.

 

 

[SegaSnatcher]

 

..with the off-chance it could potentially load ROMS? I think so as well. I was one of those people. Even though I had a TG16/Genesis/& Super Nintendo and would have easily gotten another current console, but with carts going for $200 a pop? That was waay too ridiculous a price for me in my 20's

Yeah, I think initially it would mainly sell to die hard Neo-Geo fans who have originals carts or one of those expensive flashcarts, but if JB happened sales would skyrocket.

[F34R]

Meh.. counted my chickens too fast. Now it's not reading discs. smh

[cybercylon]

I had no idea that the Sega CD had gone up like that. Is it something that people are going back to?

[phoenixdownita]

 

These cute little brand-themed systems are great, but the dream is always to own the 'the sytem to end all systems,' right?

what would zimba 3000 look like? Tons of joystick/cart ports everywhere, or maybe stackable, front-loading addons?

.....

We already know how that would work for the cart part, the Mega Sg already does it ... one slot + adapters for that slot.

In the z3k the slot should be neutral (kevtris expressed a preference for PCI connectors as they are cheap and aplenty).

 

Wrt the joypad connector it gets tricky, but either the same pattern applies (like a neutral PCB slot and small adapters with proper ports on the front) or they just have 2 DB9, 2 NES, 2 SNES ala RetroN (my apologies) to cover all the obvious bases (the DB9 alone can cover 2600/7800/CV/INTVII/CreatiV/SG1000II/MarkIII/SMS/Genesis if the FPGA can reconfigure +5 and GND as needed).

Alternatively just a neutral connector (say a DB15 like for the Jag) and wire adapters as needed.

For the joypad though I think if the neutral connector route is chosen then a sensible default is a must and at that point I'd prefer a PS1/PS2 or Saturn kind of a deal (the Saturn because of the 6 buttons + 2 shoulder design layout) .... in z3k territory I would think that a proper controller can be also designed for the system (something akin to the SNES NTT maybe to cover for ColecoVision/INTV/5200 or some evolution of a Genny 6 buttons + shoulders and keypad) ... we'll see.

[vanfanel]

I have a suggestion for @Kevtris.

I have already a SuperNT and it's great, but there's something about the MegaDrive that should be taken into acount regarding graphics: a LOT of games in the system (some of the best games in the system, in fact) relied on the "magical" mix of dithering + composite video artifacts to create "fake" (but great-looking) transparency effects and new colors. Compare composite vs RGB if it sounds strange to you.

For a graphical example:

 

 

Here's a long list of graphical examples:

 

http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare2.html

 

More examples:

 

-Look at Sonic 1 piston-like traps in Marble Zone, for example.

-Look at Sonic 1 waterfalls in Green Hill (try to stand behind one).

-Earthwork Jim backgrounds. Also Ristar background. Look how colorful these games are in composite mode!

-Aladdin's shadow in Aladdin, and all kind of effects in that game

and a loooooog list.

In other words: graphic artists relied on the effects of dithering + composite on a lot of games for the system.

So, could these artifacts be simulated along with scanlines (as an option of course)?

 

Blargg's excelent NTSC implementation for SEGA consoles is truly flawless!

https://github.com/libretro/Genesis-Plus-GX/tree/master/core/ntsc

 

Maybe there are other un-dithering solutions to keep these effects and not having to resort to NTSC simulation, but I don't think it's easy.

Edited October 21, 2018 by vanfanel

[Atariboy]

Isn't he already doing that on the Super NT?

 

https://youtu.be/LOSQgBEf5ac?t=22m13s

 

Or is this different?

[spoonman]

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk

They will market it towards all of the above. AES cart owners, MVS cart owners (via cart adapter), people with flashcarts, people with no carts at all (jailbreak). A $200 Neo-Geo AES, which when jaikbroken can play every released Neo-Geo rom, will be huge. Trust me.

 

Maybe the Neo A-M (or whatever it's called) can also have a core/cart adapter for Neo-Geo Pocket Color carts. Maybe it will have a core + USB attachment for an external CDROM drive which can play Neo-Geo CDs.

 

I was lucky to have owned a Neo-Geo Gold System (AES) since it's release here in the US in 1990. I paid for it with my own savings, but my parents bought me a game, and didn't flip out when I asked permission to use the CC to buy a $550 console and a $170 game.. So I agreed to open it all on Xmas day, which was only a few days later than the delivery day.

 

The Neo-Geo is the absolute pinnacle of 16-bit 2D animation and it's fans crave high quality display and audio. An FPGA/HDMI solution would be perfect.

 

This was an awesome Xmas.

Edited October 21, 2018 by spoonman

[Pixelboy]

They will market it towards all of the above. AES cart owners, MVS cart owners (via cart adapter), people with flashcarts, people with no carts at all (jailbreak). A $200 Neo-Geo AES, which when jaikbroken can play every released Neo-Geo rom, will be huge. Trust me.

I have to agree. I'm not interested in the Neo-Geo myself, but the fact remains that the number of people who own a Neo-Geo are by far outnumbered by those who would like to have one. Offer an accurate FPGA solution in the 200-250$ range that includes the ability to run Neo-Geo ROMs from an SD card and you've got a recipe for success. I expect the majority of people who will buy this machine won't bother to track down all those expensive cartridges, they will be content with having their Neo-Geo ROM collection on a single SD card. The accuracy of the FPGA core will be the system seller here, far more than the cartridge port.

 

The system I want to play on my HDMI TV is the Game Boy Advance (throw in GB and GBC while we're at it), I've been vocal about this before, but if the Neo-Geo is next on Analogue's to-do list, then so be it. I think it will sell well.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Pixelboy

[Reaperman]

I expect the majority of people who will buy this machine won't bother to track down all those expensive cartridges,

 

I keep hearing people saying the carts are expensive, but I don't really think that's entirely correct.

About a third of the mvs library can be had for under $50 each, and plenty are under $25, BIN on ebay right now. I've gotten more than my fair share of games for under $20 shipped. And that's all for real arcade games, which is a bargain, IMO, especially considering what common, walmart-grade, snes/genesis games of similar desirability have started going for.

 

The inexpensive AES selection is more limited to early titles, but it has some too. Weirdly, a lot of the games that go cheap on AES are kind of expensive on the arcade side. One console, with two slots, that brings both AES and MVS fans together would be amazing.

 

Oh, there are expensive titles, to put it mildly, but a very nice collection can be had affordably. I'd expect an snk-themed fpga console owner might have a small stack of carts, if for no other reason, than they are kind of fun to handle.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Reaperman

[NE146]

My viewpoint is entirely what were these carts when they were new at retail. i.e. Why didn't I buy a Neo-Geo to add to the Genesis/TG16/SNES "modern console" trilogy. It was indeed because they were pricey. Now yeah, what they're worth in the collectors / used market is a different thing.

Edited October 21, 2018 by NE146

[Tanooki]

If they did a NeoGeoNT I'd be in on that, IF it wasn't forcing me to get some lame ass adapter for my stack of MVS carts as I've got around 30 of the things. It would be a nice compromise from when I want to use the original cabinet, or get a nice clean sharp image on my TV. Also would make for a solid fall back if/when that cabinet fails as that thing dates back to 1990 roughly. But I think it's over stating things about how it could be huge. That's a big assumption they'd have jailbroken access to run whatever game from a SD card right off as that would be fairly shady and SNK is currently peddling the hell out of those games individually through Hamster's ACA + PC emulation on GoG/Steam, + their desktop/HDMI ready Neo Mini too.

If it happened, it would just run the carts, someone would have to hack it and the company would not be advertising it either. After the failing of seeing updates to the SuperNT let alone any quality jailbreak job that goes beyond Lo/HiROM support I can't feel a lot of trust for it to happen either. Now, if that NeoGeoNT would run those multi-carts on the MVS market, especially the 138 in 1 and the 161 in 1, that gets almost the entire library down which would be a huge saver.

[vanfanel]

@Atariboy: You are right... I think! I have yet to see how this is implemented on the Mega SG, but yes, that sounds like a similar problem very well solved.

[LewisD]

I think that the only way for Analogue to get an FPGA Neo Geo on the market (short of reverse engineering the NG bios) would be to actually work with SNK Playmore. Have the official bios, maybe a preloaded pack in game or two. The obvious sacrifice would be no jailbreak SD card rom loading.

 

For SNK/Playmore I see it as an opportunity to officially release multi-game AES cartridges at a more affordable price. Metal Slug collection, KOF Collection, etc.

[Radfoo]

I know they have history with new geo but I wonder if they might just skip it (and pc engine) due to lack of mass appeal (sales). N64 would make sense from a sales point of view but that thing is technically bonkers, so would perhaps take too long. PS1 makes more sense technically until you think you have to put a CD-ROM in the thing.

Sega Mega Drive was the obvious choice after seeing the super nt but I don't think I can guess the next console this time. Maybe the next year will just be adapters for mega sg and super nt, or maybe do a multi fpga retro computer?

Edited October 21, 2018 by Radfoo

[pablum]

I know they have history with new geo but I wonder if they might just skip it (and pc engine) due to lack of mass appeal (sales). N64 would make sense from a sales point of view but that thing is technically bonkers, so would perhaps take too long. PS1 makes more sense technically until you think you have to put a CD-ROM in the thing.

 

Sega Mega Drive was the obvious choice after seeing the super nt but I don't think I can guess the next console this time. Maybe the next year will just be adapters for mega sg and super nt, or maybe do a multi fpga retro computer?

 

Kevtris was interviewed on the MyLifeInGaming Youtube channel and said N64 was not in the cards. He did say Playstation was possible, but there is the issue of the BIOS on that machine. Not sure if there's a way around that copyright issue.

[Kaide]

 

Kevtris was interviewed on the MyLifeInGaming Youtube channel and said N64 was not in the cards. He did say Playstation was possible, but there is the issue of the BIOS on that machine. Not sure if there's a way around that copyright issue.

 

Both Bleem and Connectix Virtual Game Station avoided that issue. VGS in particular reverse engineered the BIOS. I assume Bleem did too, but my knowledge of their history is a little fuzzier. And both were effectively beating Sony in court, minus that whole war chest thing.

 

I have to agree. I'm not interested in the Neo-Geo myself, but the fact remains that the number of people who own a Neo-Geo are by far outnumbered by those who would like to have one. Offer an accurate FPGA solution in the 200-250$ range that includes the ability to run Neo-Geo ROMs from an SD card and you've got a recipe for success. I expect the majority of people who will buy this machine won't bother to track down all those expensive cartridges, they will be content with having their Neo-Geo ROM collection on a single SD card. The accuracy of the FPGA core will be the system seller here, far more than the cartridge port.

 

 

Count me in that sort of market. But part of it is to avoid the level of mods you need for a CMVS in order to keep modern HDTVs happy with the output coming off the system. Especially since there’s a lack of compatibility information for some of the existing pre-made CMVS systems. One of the harder topics to google and get reasonable answers about in this hobby.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I wonder if the rare mega drive modem will fit... or imagine getting the game gear adapter to plug in your tv tuner... to finally watch tv on your tv, haha. [An 'Analogue' broadcast could still work... it could be the sega baby monitor.]I wasn't aware the Uppergrafx for TG16/PCE could also play games and ISO images like the Super SD System 3.

 

i have no idea if the tv tuner would work. if it did, good luck finding an analog tv station to pick up. here's a novel idea: get a mega sg, attach the game gear adapter, attach the tv tuner. get a sega genesis, run an rca from the genny rf to the antenna tv tuner, ntsc channel 3. play crappy, fuzzy analog video games on your hdtv! as for your uppergrafx comment, what is that? mispelled super? no supergrafx exclusive cd games were ever released, but the hardware could definitely support this arrangement.