FPGA Based Videogame System

[cacophony]

The biggest disadvantage of flatscreen HDTVs compared to CRT TVs is the high input lag. That seems to be solved by LGs latest OLED TV, the C9, which has 13.5 ms input lag. That is in the highly coveted under one frame of lag territory. Not bad for a 65 inch 4k OLED.

 

I cant wait to see my Super NT on this TV. LG C9 review here:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

 

Nice to see them improve the 1080p input lag by half a frame but this is certainly unfortunate for modern gaming:

 

4k @ 60 Hz + HDR : 39.1 ms

[Toth]

I wonder how much input lag game designers just factor in now days due to displays and Bluetooth? There must be a target as people would get pretty frustrated if they designed games with 0 in mind.

[Kismet]

I wonder how much input lag game designers just factor in now days due to displays and Bluetooth? There must be a target as people would get pretty frustrated if they designed games with 0 in mind.

 

Well games that use a bulky 3D game engine (eg Unity, Unreal, etc) probably have no control over the input latency. Since the PC is a crapshoot, you can't really design a game around tight input. Game consoles have their own hypervisors that likely introduce their own latency on top of the latency from the controllers. Then you have straight bluetooth controllers which would have an additional level of latency from the bluetooth stack that the straight USB would not have.

 

The input latency wouldn't be that much compared to the render latency that is beyond your control. Some computer screens and television screens have a "game" mode that bypass the color correction, frame interpolation and energy control features (on some TV's this results the picture being brighter, but the colors blown out.) The issue however is that a 60hz panel has a frame buffer so it can do all the SmartTV features so you'll end up with an additional frame of latency so it can do this compositing. If it has to be upscaled to 4K, that's can also be another frame of latency. A 120, 144 or 240fps panel might be able to use it's interpolation feature to do a "freeze and hold" and reduce the latency so instead of 16.7mz sync, it could be down to 8ms or 4ms. But who knows if that's actually what they do.

 

But as far as the game dev's are concerned, they're not going to test every model of TV and computer screen with every console, so if the game is laggy the blame is laid at the TV manufacturer.

[brentonius]

As someone who currently is working on a major upcoming AAA game, I can tell you we all test the game constantly using the exact same displays that the public uses... a multitude of displays... giant TVs, smaller monitors, everything... I think if we noticed any laginess it would be addressed. So I think the dev tools really matter here. Retro games were designed with devs constantly testing on CRTs while modern games are tested on modern TVs. And we tune and test the gameplay according to that...

 

I estimate that modern games are probably just fine with 50ms lag honestly. Above that and I think youd notice it. Average display lag in our studio I would estimate around 20ms-35ms simply because we use so many various types of monitors and thats just an average.

[phoenixdownita]

I'm not following the Discord server, what's kevtris up to lately?

Here he's been pretty mum, which is weird as I think the MegaSg rocks.

[atmn]

I'm not following the Discord server, what's kevtris up to lately?

Here he's been pretty mum, which is weird as I think the MegaSg rocks.

 

Probably working with the next project..

 

Please god say its the DAC.

[Atariboy]

They've said quite sometime ago that the DAC was finished, the parts ordered, and the components now on hand. They just haven't had the capacity yet to assemble and package them.

 

So I doubt Kevtris is working on it at this point, unless I suppose they're trying to come up with a 32X solution.

[spoonman]

They've said quite sometime ago that the DAC was finished, the parts ordered, and the components now on hand. They just haven't had the capacity yet to assemble and package them.

 

So I doubt Kevtris is working on it at this point, unless I suppose they're trying to come up with a 32X solution.

 

Analogue has said in the past that they often tease products which have little chance of actually coming out. Perhaps the DAC is one of those things. I'd personally like to see one come out, specifically with YPbPr component output.

[CZroe]

Analogue has said in the past that they often tease products which have little chance of actually coming out. Perhaps the DAC is one of those things. I'd personally like to see one come out, specifically with YPbPr component output.

They’re past teasing it. The manual released months ago specifically says it’s coming later in 2019. Until 2020, it’s not late.

[Guspaz]

 

 

Nice to see them improve the 1080p input lag by half a frame but this is certainly unfortunate for modern gaming:

 

4k @ 60 Hz + HDR : 39.1 ms

 

 

The latency is only 13.5ms for 4K60, it's only with HDR that it goes up. HDR support is not currently too widespread, so hopefully a future firmware update will improve HDR latency by the time there are enough HDR games to make it really important.

[cacophony]

 

The latency is only 13.5ms for 4K60, it's only with HDR that it goes up. HDR support is not currently too widespread, so hopefully a future firmware update will improve HDR latency by the time there are enough HDR games to make it really important.

 

Most of the big budget new releases are HDR so it's pretty important for modern gaming IMO.

[CZroe]

The biggest disadvantage of flatscreen HDTVs compared to CRT TVs is the high input lag. That seems to be solved by LGs latest OLED TV, the C9, which has 13.5 ms input lag. That is in the highly coveted under one frame of lag territory. Not bad for a 65 inch 4k OLED.

 

I cant wait to see my Super NT on this TV. LG C9 review here:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

Because these displays show the whole frame at once and do not draw them as the lines are generated they will always be a full frame of latency from the point where the first line of that frame was drawn. Of course, this doesn’t apply when while frames are generated at once like modern consoles but it definitely applies when adapting the old analog ones.

[GarrettCRW]

They've said quite sometime ago that the DAC was finished, the parts ordered, and the components now on hand. They just haven't had the capacity yet to assemble and package them.

 

So I doubt Kevtris is working on it at this point, unless I suppose they're trying to come up with a 32X solution.

 

Maybe he's getting that much-needed rest he was looking forward to before the Mega Sg came out.

[Jagasian]

Because these displays show the whole frame at once and do not draw them as the lines are generated they will always be a full frame of latency from the point where the first line of that frame was drawn. Of course, this doesnt apply when while frames are generated at once like modern consoles but it definitely applies when adapting the old analog ones.

In order to achieve 13ms input lag, the LG C9 has to start drawing each frame before all lines have been generated by the console.

[CZroe]

In order to achieve 13ms input lag, the LG C9 has to start drawing each frame before all lines have been generated by the console.

13ms from the time the completed frame was sent from the HDMI transmitter.

 

Even if the LG C9 displays that frame as it is receiving it (what a ridiculous refresh rate that would be, eh?!), the source device doesn’t usually transmit the frame as lines are generated. Hi-Def NES and OSSC kinda do, but not modern game consoles.

 

If the LG C9 actually drew lines as they were transmitted then it would need to update the image at least 129,600 times per second for typical 4K 60p content. TVs are typically 60, 120, or 240hz. Greater than 60hz is typically done to allow for things like 60hz 3D stereoscopic for each eye or a multiple of 24hz to eliminate judder from 24p sources. 129,600hz is unheard of.

[derFunkenstein]

The C9 is an OLED panel so the idea of refresh rates kind of go out the window. You don't have to update the whole screen at once if the panel's controller is smart. It hasn't happened yet, but the idea of a panel that can draw lines as they're sent to the display should be quite possible. (edit: might require a new signalling method, or something that's good with analog signals like an OSSC)

Edited May 14, 2019 by derFunkenstein

[Newsdee]

We can only fantasize that a guy (or lady) at LG or Sony or similar gets promoted, and then it turns out he/she is a huge retro gaming maniac, and so orders production into LCDs that can act like CRTs with a high level of fidelity, those guys from market research be damned...

[Keatah]

Those guys from marketing don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

[Andromeda Stardust]

13ms from the time the completed frame was sent from the HDMI transmitter.

Even if the LG C9 displays that frame as it is receiving it (what a ridiculous refresh rate that would be, eh?!), the source device doesnt usually transmit the frame as lines are generated. Hi-Def NES and OSSC kinda do, but not modern game consoles.

If the LG C9 actually drew lines as they were transmitted then it would need to update the image at least 129,600 times per second for typical 4K 60p content. TVs are typically 60, 120, or 240hz. Greater than 60hz is typically done to allow for things like 60hz 3D stereoscopic for each eye or a multiple of 24hz to eliminate judder from 24p sources. 129,600hz is unheard of.

The Kevtris FPGA consoles render the full line of pixels prior to sending to the display.

 

Sub millisecond screen lag is technically possible without crt tdchnology. The display could merely render each HD scanline as it rolls off the hdmi port. Scaling would only require a slight performance hit. A fast bilinear scalar algorithm would only delay the output by about 2-3 scanlines at input resolution since a two scanine buffer is needed to calculate the scalar.

 

Screen tearing on such a display would be non-existent due to persistence of vision.

 

Want a realtime lightgun compatible non-crt display? That could be fabbed too. LED display at 480x720 matrix array for 480i interlaced ntsc, or 240p progressive. Analog circuits. A realtime "racing the beam" type signal sets up each scanline as an analog current source charges a capacitor for each LED. Digital transitor relay dumps the charge hundreds of thousands of times per second across the LED mayrix, creating rgb pulsed energy safely discharges each LED in realtime. Each LED has it's own discharge circuit featuring a small capacitance and shunt resistor, creating a duty cycle resulting in a tapering decay of light output until the LED voltage hits it's Vdrop at which point current and light emission stops. Beam scanner and high current charge circuit uses digital logic relay transistors to rapidly switch each LED in the matrix. The time constant of the resistor/capacitor combo is set to decay just short of 1/60 second. This ensures minimal eyestrain while providing realtime strobing needed for lightguns, and a decay pattern reminiscent of crt displays. Afterglow of the residual charge on the LEDs creates a CRT like phosphor trail effect too!

 

For 240p source material, a microcontroller dual ganges rows of LED outputs. For interlaced video, even/odd fields are employed each frame. Who will build this solid state realtime analog "scan-the-beam" display that employs LEDs instead of phosphors? How much would be the retail cost let alone bom?

[Namdor]

8bitdo announced a DIY Bluetooth solution for PS1 and PS1 classic controllers. The rest of their DIY controller line has an Analogue FPGA equivalent console for sale...Nt Mini, Super NT, Mega Sg...

 

Can we begin to discuss the dream or possible reality of an Analogue FPGA PS1?

Edited May 15, 2019 by Namdor

[hyrulebr]

8bitdo announced a DIY Bluetooth solution for PS1 and PS1 classic controllers. The rest of their DIY controller line has an Analogue FPGA equivalent console for sale...Nt Mini, Super NT, Mega Sg...

 

Can we begin to discuss the dream or possible reality of an Analogue FPGA PS1?

 

Here https://shop.8bitdo.com/products/mod-kit-for-original-playstation-controller

 

I don´t think so. Not yet.

 

If 8bitdo announces a wireless playstaion controller like SN30 or M30 (PS30?) maybe something is coming...

Edited May 15, 2019 by hyrulebr

[CZroe]

8bitdo announced a DIY Bluetooth solution for PS1 and PS1 classic controllers. The rest of their DIY controller line has an Analogue FPGA equivalent console for sale...Nt Mini, Super NT, Mega Sg...

 

Can we begin to discuss the dream or possible reality of an Analogue FPGA PS1?

Sweet!

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by CZroe

[Toth]

I wonder if they will release a retro receiver for the Playstation? I wouldn't mind using the DIY classic or a PS4 controller on my original Playstation. I just recently purchased the Genesis controller kit. Wish I could have grabbed a couple of these at the same time.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Toth

[CZroe]

I wonder if they will release a retro receiver for the Playstation? I wouldn't mind using the DIY classic or a PS4 controller on my original Playstation.

Well, most Retro Receivers will work with the PS Classic and other consoles as a USB adapter and they sell dedicated USB BT adapters too so at least those are covered.

 

The thing is, PS2 controllers are dropping like flies. Something to refurbish those would be a bigger deal for me, especially since they work with PSX too. A PS2 Retro Receiver and DIY kit would be the way to go.

[Toth]

No I meant for the original Playstation. I have a Playstation classic but I only bought it for the controllers to use on my PC. I would like to use them with the PSOne (PSX I guess it is abbreviated) console.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Toth