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FPGA Based Videogame System


kevtris

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

682 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...


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For those who haven't seen them, YouTube channel FirebrandX has wonderful Mega SG Audio/Video settings videos ("Mega Sg Settings for the Obsessive Compulsive" parts 1 and 2) with time saving cheat sheets in the video description links which is VERY helpful when you have to redo settings after a fw update. Note: if using the newest firmware, some slight tweaks may be in order. I hope FirebrandX offers updated cheat sheets.

 

I had JUST finished all my settings and then the new fw came out. :) Vay on Sega CD works for me now as the revision notes state.

 

 

POSSIBLE BUG REPORT:

 

I'm hoping this update didn't break a feature: Has anyone tried playing an import Sega CD game after selecting a different cd bios file? Now, for me on my USA Sega CD model 2, I ONLY get to use that bios regardless of ANY settings. I tried toggling several bios (Smokemonster pack) and settings of "Use custom bios" ticks as well as system/hardware settings of auto region detection and USA or Japan. "Forced Region" shows USA and sometimes Japan as the only variant but I can no longer get any bios but USA version 2.0.

 

Hopefully I just forgot something and am doing something wrong.

Edited by seastalker
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Installed a new Hi-Def NES for someone yesterday and played through Ninja Gaiden again to see if the cutscene at the end of the game is still glitched with the latest FW. It is. :(

 

This time I did it with the Everdrive so I could see if the issue exists with and without New PPU Fixes enabled. It shows the error on both. Yes, I saved and power-cycled.

 

Curious: does anyone know if it does this on an Nt Mini? I mean, same FPGA PPU core, right? Its a notoriously difficult game so I dont expect someone to play through just to check this, but perhaps theres a way to load my save state on a jail broken mini? If so, Ill see if I can get it off the Famicom Everdrive N8 to share.

 

The Ninja Gaiden glitch is visible in this old video of mine:

https://youtu.be/xBF3kP2CL7Y

(distinct rectangular area around Ryus eyes when the screen flashes).

No, it does not on an Nt Mini. Proof is attached.

vcs.zip

Edited by Great Hierophant
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Not sure if this has already been pointed out however there seems to be an issue with hybrid scanlines in 720p mode where the scanlines don't brighten uniformly.

 

Basically the screen seems to be segmented into three horizontal sections of scanlines. If you load up the 240p test suite and display a pure white background, as you increase the scanline depth slider on the Mega Sg, first the scanlines in the centre third of the screen will lighten, then the top third, and finally the bottom third. It's only really visible on white parts of the screen but it's still a bit of an annoyance, especially in games that occasionally have large white sections being displayed on screen.

 

It's kind of hard to see in the below photo due to the moire effect but the issue is definitely there:

 

4vEbaLC.jpg

 

The settings @720p were:

 

Hybrid scanlines: on

Hybrid scanline depth:40

Scanline sub-brightness: 255

Edited by afx_acid
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Not sure if this has already been pointed out however there seems to be an issue with hybrid scanlines in 720p mode where the scanlines don't brighten uniformly.

 

Basically the screen seems to be segmented into three horizontal sections of scanlines. If you load up the 240p test suite and display a pure white background, as you increase the scanline depth slider on the Mega Sg, first the scanlines in the centre third of the screen will lighten, then the top third, and finally the bottom third. It's only really visible on white parts of the screen but it's still a bit of an annoyance, especially in games that occasionally have large white sections of the screen being displayed.

 

It's kind of hard to see in the below photo due to the moire effect but the issue is definitely there:

 

4vEbaLC.jpg

 

The settings @720p were:

 

Hybrid scanlines: on

Hybrid scanline depth:40

Scanline sub-brightness: 255

I’ll check when I get home but I suspect it’s an artifact of non-integer scaling, which is why we need scanlines fixed for 5x and 1080p.
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Are hybrid scanlines fixed for 1080p? Two other things when you have an integer scale: Scanlines should never bisect scales pixels and scanlines should not vary in thickness. UltraHDMI gets this right but Super Nt and Mega Sg were both broken for 1080p last I checked.

Scanlines look better in 720p imo. 1080p5 is razor thin.
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Scanlines look better in 720p imo. 1080p5 is razor thin.

It’s not about the thickness or even what looks better. It’s broken/wrong and would look better if it were fixed.

 

Heck, scanlines can be even thicker in x5 if each original 240p row is scaled to 3x 1080p rows and a 2x “double-thick” scanline on 1080p. 2/5ths of each scaled 240p line would be scanline as opposed to 1/3rd in 720p. That would make it pretty dark so you’d probably want gamma boost and the “Hybrid scanlines” effect even more... which is also broken at 1080p!

 

The hybrid effect is specifically supposed to blend the scanlines and make it less apparent in bright areas of a solid color. Thin scanlines on the edges of these areas may be desirable, since these edges are where pixelation is apparent. Because they are broken you get thin scanlines throughout.

 

Scanlines are (were?) broken in 1080p regardless and there’s no reason for it whether the 720p scanlines are better or not. XRGB Mini, UltraHDMI, OSSC, etc would not have scanlines bisecting scaled pixels so why should Super Nt and Mega Sg? If a scanline goes right through the middle of a pixel then it isn’t really a scanline and it will make rows of pixels appear thinner than they are supposed to be. The “thin” scanlines are actually a reason to fix it, not a reason to ignore it.

 

Granted, even if Kevin completely fixes 1080p scanlines then 720p will still look better for most users because most will not have their display properly set for an integer scale. Still, half the point of HDMI FPGA clone consoles is as a Framemeister/OSSC alternative, especially for particularly problematic consoles like SNES and Genesis. These features appealing to the people who want perfect scaling from their SNES/Genesis games, many of whom want scanlines, is a big part of what the Super Nt and Mega Sg promise.

Edited by CZroe
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Scanlines are (were?) broken in 1080p.... Granted, even if Kevin completely fixes 1080p scanlines then 720p

So I guess I don't understand... are you saying the update 3 days ago failed in its effort to revamp scanlines? Just curious... I don't use scanlines really. :P

 

Mega Sg: Firmware Update v4.5

Scanlines have been totally redone. There are now more options to tweak and width is now adjustable.
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So I guess I don't understand... are you saying the update 3 days ago failed in its effort to revamp scanlines? Just curious... I don't use scanlines really. :P

 

 

Mega Sg: Firmware Update v4.5

Scanlines have been totally redone. There are now more options to tweak and width is now adjustable.
I haven’t tried the new update so I was parsing my words in case they have been fixed. I asked if scanlines were fixed in 1080p in the latest update and he responded that they were better at 720p, which is a discussion we’ve been having all along and not specific to the latest FW. I responded with why 1080p scanlines still matter.

 

Thanks. I’m still hoping to be able to test before work today but my brother had the whole TV occupied with GC Dual stuff last night (installing/testing/updating it for someone else). Swinging by there in a few.

 

They were broken in a few ways:

Did not line up with pixels, bisecting pixels it shouldn’t.

Hybrid scanlines would not blend in bright areas

I recall something wrong with scanline depth adjustment where you had to go significantly further to see a difference versus 720p.

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For those who haven't seen them, YouTube channel FirebrandX has wonderful Mega SG Audio/Video settings videos ("Mega Sg Settings for the Obsessive Compulsive" parts 1 and 2) with time saving cheat sheets in the video description links which is VERY helpful when you have to redo settings after a fw update. Note: if using the newest firmware, some slight tweaks may be in order. I hope FirebrandX offers updated cheat sheets.

 

I had JUST finished all my settings and then the new fw came out. :) Vay on Sega CD works for me now as the revision notes state.

 

 

POSSIBLE BUG REPORT:

 

I'm hoping this update didn't break a feature: Has anyone tried playing an import Sega CD game after selecting a different cd bios file? Now, for me on my USA Sega CD model 2, I ONLY get to use that bios regardless of ANY settings. I tried toggling several bios (Smokemonster pack) and settings of "Use custom bios" ticks as well as system/hardware settings of auto region detection and USA or Japan. "Forced Region" shows USA and sometimes Japan as the only variant but I can no longer get any bios but USA version 2.0.

 

Hopefully I just forgot something and am doing something wrong.

 

Believe the bios bug is on the smokemonster issues in github

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I haven’t tried the new update so I was parsing my words in case they have been fixed. I asked if scanlines were fixed in 1080p in the latest update and he responded that they were better at 720p, which is a discussion we’ve been having all along and not specific to the latest FW. I responded with why 1080p scanlines still matter.

 

Thanks. I’m still hoping to be able to test before work today but my brother had the whole TV occupied with GC Dual stuff last night (installing/testing/updating it for someone else). Swinging by there in a few.

 

They were broken in a few ways:

Did not line up with pixels, bisecting pixels it shouldn’t.

Hybrid scanlines would not blend in bright areas

I recall something wrong with scanline depth adjustment where you had to go significantly further to see a difference versus 720p.

 

I just tested the new firmware, and I can say without a doubt scanlines in 1080p are much better than they were. The scanlines are no longer extremely thin. There is now settings for scanline depth and width as well as scanline sub-brightness. Default is depth 0, width 8, sub-brightness 255. With these settings it appears to be exactly one line on and one line off. It appears to be fairly customizable. I'll let the scanline experts figure out what's what. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the exact difference is between depth and width. At max both of these settings cause the skinning scanlines.

 

It's not amazing from what I've tried so far like what you can achieve with filters in some emulators, but it's absolutely an improvement and usable now. I'm playing with the brightness because one on and one off is just too much loss in brightness. I'm trying out depth 0, width 8, and brightness 75 currently. I hope this is coming over to the Super Nt soon.

Edited by Ricdeau
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Believe the bios bug is on the smokemonster issues in github

 

I checked and do not see it at the time of writing. Do you have a link? Also Does that mean the issue is in just the jailbreak firmware of official as well? I hope the discussion point gets addressed somewhere like either Kevtris, Smokemonster, or Bob at RetroRGB. I am very happy that I can try VVay now, but I also was looking forward to experiencing regional differences with Japanese Mega CD versions of Sonic and Final Fight, as well as check out the playable Japanese titles.

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The good news is that I no longer see scanlines bisecting 4x pixels when you have an 5x integer scale on 1080p, but hybrid scanlines are still completely broken in 1080p.

 

First, you can crank them all the way up and the scanlines never fully disappear in the bright areas like they do in 720p. It just goes from a double-thick scanline to a single-line scanline as the other line *mostly* disappears. Making it completely disappear in bright areas of a consistent color is kind of the whole point of hybrid scanlines, so they remain broken at 1080p.

 

For some reason the maximum scanline depth setting is about 10 degrees lower than on 1080p.

 

I say “mostly” disappears because the hybrid algorithm is still doing stuff like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/104fc8a6789685d3c3768680461ce532.jpg

 

If you look right above the E it should be four identical lines of blue but the bottom line just above the black scanline shows some darkening where the E is below it. The edge of the E is affecting that row across the scanline... and it shouldn’t. If anything, it should be the bottom row that looks like that but, instead, we just have a black line.

 

Also, the vertical edges of the E show bleed from the left and right, which should not be happening with square pixels on 5x. While this is possibly some kind of edge enhancement artifact from my television, I don’t think so since it has the opposite effect of increasing edge contrast. I have all enhancements turned off but you can still see my TV brightening the pixel rows that sit directly above and below a scanline (annoying!). That’s definitely not what’s going on above the E though and, again, probably not what’s going on with the vertical edges.

 

Note how scanlines disappear in the brighter colors as you increase the depth slider in 720p:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/472e305c68869b19e90a324b55bc15b0.jpg

 

OK, so Hybrid scanlines kinda work on 720p, but there’s still something wrong. Heck, you can still still see the vertical edge artifact that shouldn’t be there, so it’s almost certainly not my TV doing it. Also, the scanlines are supposed to be visible on the edges of such bright areas such that they only disappear in the middle.

 

For example, proper hybrid scanlines on UltraHDMI (which is supposedly where this algorithm comes from) will make Mario’s hat solid red except on the edges where it gets darker or contrasts with the stuff around it. That makes the edges appear higher resolution with less pixelation and stair-stepping (jaggies) while letting the middle look as bright as it would with line-doubling and no scanlines. You can’t see individual pixels in an expanse of same-colored pixels, which hides the low resolution that scanlines would kinda give away. Overall brightness would remain higher and you’d still get the pseudo-hires effect of scanlines.

 

How it should work at 1080p and 5x height:

Each 240p row is scaled to 5x 1080p rows.

User enable scanlines and has the option of replacing either one or two of those rows with a scanline... maybe a medium/heavy toggle or something.

User enables Hybrid scanlines and the algorithm colors in a single-width scanline with the colors above and below if they are bright and the same color continues horizontally for more than a few pixels.

If the user has double-thick scanlines, they mirror the single-thick scanline. The top scanline and the bottom scanline in a pair are always identical.

 

While having two 1080p lines to work with per scanline opens it up for a lot of effects, the extra complexity of using that second line to bleed into without bleeding into both lines is seemingly what causes this.

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The biggest problem with Hybrid scanlines on 1080p really boils down to this:

You are only affecting one of the two 1080p lines you get for each scanline when you increase the depth slider for Hybrid scanlines. They should be mirrors of each other but, instead, one remains black. Also, having two 1080p lines per scanline at 5x should be optional, especially when the point of hybrid scanlines it to blend and minimize them.

Edited by CZroe
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Is it just me or is there audio crackling since the latest firmware update? Try listening during the intros to Streets of Rage 1 or 2, or on the Ghouls 'n Ghosts title screen, especially just before it fades to the demo. You may need to plug headphones into your TV/AV receiver to hear it properly.

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The good news is that I no longer see scanlines bisecting 4x pixels when you have an 5x integer scale on 1080p, but hybrid scanlines are still completely broken in 1080p.

 

First, you can crank them all the way up and the scanlines never fully disappear in the bright areas like they do in 720p. It just goes from a double-thick scanline to a single-line scanline as the other line *mostly* disappears. Making it completely disappear in bright areas of a consistent color is kind of the whole point of hybrid scanlines, so they remain broken at 1080p.

 

For some reason the maximum scanline depth setting is about 10 degrees lower than on 1080p.

 

I say mostly disappears because the hybrid algorithm is still doing stuff like this:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/104fc8a6789685d3c3768680461ce532.jpg

 

If you look right above the E it should be four identical lines of blue but the bottom line just above the black scanline shows some darkening where the E is below it. The edge of the E is affecting that row across the scanline... and it shouldnt. If anything, it should be the bottom row that looks like that but, instead, we just have a black line.

 

Also, the vertical edges of the E show bleed from the left and right, which should not be happening with square pixels on 5x. While this is possibly some kind of edge enhancement artifact from my television, I dont think so since it has the opposite effect of increasing edge contrast. I have all enhancements turned off but you can still see my TV brightening the pixel rows that sit directly above and below a scanline (annoying!). Thats definitely not whats going on above the E though and, again, probably not whats going on with the vertical edges.

 

Note how scanlines disappear in the brighter colors as you increase the depth slider in 720p:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190613/472e305c68869b19e90a324b55bc15b0.jpg

 

OK, so Hybrid scanlines kinda work on 720p, but theres still something wrong. Heck, you can still still see the vertical edge artifact that shouldnt be there, so its almost certainly not my TV doing it. Also, the scanlines are supposed to be visible on the edges of such bright areas such that they only disappear in the middle.

 

For example, proper hybrid scanlines on UltraHDMI (which is supposedly where this algorithm comes from) will make Marios hat solid red except on the edges where it gets darker or contrasts with the stuff around it. That makes the edges appear higher resolution with less pixelation and stair-stepping (jaggies) while letting the middle look as bright as it would with line-doubling and no scanlines. You cant see individual pixels in an expanse of same-colored pixels, which hides the low resolution that scanlines would kinda give away. Overall brightness would remain higher and youd still get the pseudo-hires effect of scanlines.

 

How it should work at 1080p and 5x height:

Each 240p row is scaled to 5x 1080p rows.

User enable scanlines and has the option of replacing either one or two of those rows with a scanline... maybe a medium/heavy toggle or something.

User enables Hybrid scanlines and the algorithm colors in a single-width scanline with the colors above and below if they are bright and the same color continues horizontally for more than a few pixels.

If the user has double-thick scanlines, they mirror the single-thick scanline. The top scanline and the bottom scanline in a pair are always identical.

 

While having two 1080p lines to work with per scanline opens it up for a lot of effects, the extra complexity of using that second line to bleed into without bleeding into both lines is seemingly what causes this.

Those screenshots you jusg posted affirm my opinion that scanlines still do look better in 720p.

 

On my tcl 4k TV it dos a decent job upscaling to 4k. Realistically the pixels onscreen are so small as to not be noticeable unless you are sitting less than a foot away from the screen.

 

The 720p picture isn't cropped, ever so slightly stretched in 4x horizontal integer pixel scaling (Super NT / AVS) with a balanced 2/3 thickness to each pass. Mega SG uses square pixels at 320x240 so integer aspect ratio is moot if you match the vertical to the horizontal.

 

Czroe, with all do respect, some softening of the image appears to be taking place whether it is your TV processing it or the native output of the console. It looks gorgeous, believable, certainly better than all but the highest end rgb pvm. Until the day comes where we have phosphor dot overlays on a 4k or higher display, it won't get much more realistic than it is right now.

 

I think people complaining about sub pixel precision need to take a chill pill, put away your magnifying glass, stop examining the lcd or oled matrix on your screen searching for defects, put in a game cart, sit comfortably several feet back from the screen (use a controller extension if you need to), cozy up with a favorite beverage, snack, and game on.?

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Those screenshots you jusg posted affirm my opinion that scanlines still do look better in 720p.

Of course it looks better in 720p. It’s BROKEN in 1080p.

 

On my tcl 4k TV it dos a decent job upscaling to 4k. Realistically the pixels onscreen are so small as to not be noticeable unless you are sitting less than a foot away from the screen.

Yes. 4K is an integer scale of 720p which is an integer scale of 240p, but this is about an issue with scanlines at 1080p... not what looks better on a 4K TV.

 

Kevtris has said he expects 1080p from similar projects and criticized them for not having it, so clearly he thinks it’s important to support and isn’t so dismissive about it. Still, with broken scaling/scanlines for the last year on the Super Nt I’d wonder just how dedicated he is to supporting 1080p except it’s probably just a matter of not having time. He did improve them with this Mega Sg FW, after all.

 

The softness at 720p on my 1080p display is because I can’t get an integer scale without windowing 720p. Would you like to see how crisp that looks on the same display with an integer scale? It’ll look nice and sharp!

 

The 720p picture isn't cropped, ever so slightly stretched in 4x horizontal integer pixel scaling (Super NT / AVS) with a balanced 2/3 thickness to each pass. Mega SG uses square pixels at 320x240 so integer aspect ratio is moot.

Yes. Integer scaling does not aim to preserve aspect ratios but, rather, the integrity of the source pixel once scaled. That is why I am OK with slightly wider pixels. So we’ve established that it’s not about aspect and more about artifacts of a non-integer scale. Those artifacts can be very significant. Even scrolling doesn’t look right without an integer scale unless you use interpolation which hurts the clarity. I was playing Hi-Def NES at 4.5x the other day and had to knock it down to 4x because the background hill at the start of the first level in SMB3 Giant Land was so messed up (alternating thick and thin pixels on the stair-step edge).

 

Czroe, with all do respect, some softening of the image appears to be taking place whether it is your TV processing it or the native output of the console. It looks gorgeous!

Quite the opposite: The display is adding an unwanted sharpening effect that can’t be disabled. That wouldn’t be there in a 1080p capture but I wanted to show how the scanlines were each using TWO 1080p lines and the hybrid effect was only applying to one. I took a picture of the display’s pixels to show this. I wouldn’t want to obfuscate the problem if I want to see it addressed.

 

If you’re talking about my 720p image: of course it was softer. It was not integer-scaled and the display only had 1080 lines to scale the 720p image. The point of that image was not to compare my display’s scaling but to show that hybrid scanlines are supposed to disappear in bright areas, which they do correctly in 720p and not 1080p.

 

I think people complaining about sub pixel precision need to take a chill pill, put away your magnifying glass, stop examining the lcd or oled matrix on your screen searching for defects, put in a game cart, sit comfortably back from the screen, cozy up with a favorite beverage, snack, controller whatever, and game on.[emoji41]

You forget that these HDMI FPGA consoles also appeal to the people who wanted an integer scale from XRGBmini, OSSC, etc but balked at the need to convert from lossy/imperfect analog.

 

If 1080p remains broken then it leaves room for better options than Super Nt and Mega Sg in the future. I don’t think that’ll sit well with Kevin when it’s just an oversight in the way it handles scanlines. ;)

Edited by CZroe
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I have noticed a couple of problems with Master System games, they were probably there with JB7.4, but they are still present in JB7.5 for sure:

 

-Rastan YM music is missing some notes

-Bubble Bobble hangs if left in DEMO mode for a while

 

Can you guys confirm the same problems happen with cartridges?

 

I have reported these issues here:

https://github.com/SmokeMonsterPacks/Mega-Sg-Jailbreak/issues

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You forget that these HDMI FPGA consoles also appeal to the people who wanted an integer scale from XRGBmini, OSSC, etc but balked at the need to convert from lossy/imperfect analog.

 

If 1080p remains broken then it leaves room for better options than Super Nt and Mega Sg in the future. I don’t think that’ll sit well with Kevin when it’s just an oversight in the way it handles scanlines. ;)

Lots of negative Nancies in the house. I have always preferred 720p, even on my 1080p ASUS which did a fabulous job upscaling the 720p AVS with it's built in bilinear filter. Unless a manufacturer puts out a TV with total user control over how the display upscales (or even better build a true "zero lag" display that instantly updates every scanline as it streams in from HDMI, or possibly lag two or three lines for scaling) every manufacturer is going to be russian roulette as far as picture quality and lag goes. I did my homework before investing in a TCL because it had the size, price, and ultra low latency I desired. And the Roku streaming apps are nice too. Instant access to XM and Pandora music, and analog output for my hifi stereo sound system.

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Lots of negative Nancies in the house.

See, that’s the reason you think you have an issue with what I’m saying. You’re treating the problem report like a criticism and not an issue/problem report. Anything I said that may be interpreted that way is just to let Kevin know that people do care.

 

I have always preferred 720p, even on my 1080p ASUS which did a fabulous job upscaling the 720p AVS with it's built in bilinear filter.

This has nothing to do with preference. One option out of two is broken and it isn’t a technical limitation. It can be fixed and there is reason to fix it regardless of which people prefer. Heck, I prefer 720p on the right display too... which doesn’t change the fact that hybrid scanlines are needlessly broken on 1080p and there are people with displays where 1080p is the better option.

 

Unless a manufacturer puts out a TV with total user control over how the display upscales (or even better build a true "zero lag" display that instantly updates every scanline as it streams in from HDMI, or possibly lag two or three lines for scaling) every manufacturer is going to be russian roulette as far as picture quality and lag goes.

...and one factor that SIGNIFICANTLY helps with that gamble is having a properly-scaled 1080p source for the displays better suited for it. It’s why OSSC Line 5x and XRGBmini exist. It’s not nearly as simple as preferring one resolution over the other.

 

I did my homework before investing in a TCL because it had the size, price, and ultra low latency I desired. And the Roku streaming apps are nice too. Instant access to XM and Pandora music, and analog output for my hifi stereo sound system.

Great! Some people are concerned with streaming or archival footage (capture hardware). Some people are concerned with latency (less display scaling = lower latency). Some people would rather the device be flexible enough to work well with their 13 year-old TV if there’s no technical reason it can’t. ;)

 

Just sayin’ that a new TV isn’t the solution to broken Hybrid scanlines on 1080p. The option is there. I just want it to work.

Edited by CZroe
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I have noticed a couple of problems with Master System games, they were probably there with JB7.4, but they are still present in JB7.5 for sure:

 

-Rastan YM music is missing some notes

-Bubble Bobble hangs if left in DEMO mode for a while

 

Can you guys confirm the same problems happen with cartridges?

 

I have reported these issues here:

https://github.com/SmokeMonsterPacks/Mega-Sg-Jailbreak/issues

 

I'm not sure with bubble bobble (though I have both the EU and JP carts of it and can test the former). I don't have the cart of Rastan, but the FM on the Everdrive X7 sounds like it should (and this bug has been around in the last couple firmware for Mega SG).

 

Edit: I tried the EU Bubble Bobble cart and the demo didn't lock up after looping a few times, but the JP version played off the mega sg directly locked up on the second or third loop. EU version off ROM hung up in the same area. Not sure if this happens on SMS since I never let the demo set for that long before. Odd thing is that it unhangs if the start button is pressed (at least this was the case with the EU ROM version).

Edited by BrianC
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