FPGA Based Videogame System

[Steven Pendleton]

12 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

Sorry if I came off as a bull in a china shop guys! Thanks for the discussion.

It's fine, and sure. You came off harsh, especially when you accused me of not understanding basic marketing the other day (which you'll notice I ignored completely until now, and I do understand it since I studied marketing and business professionally for almost 4 years to get my degree), but seeing as you were accounting for the TV aspect ratio correction, I can see where the confusion comes from. I am not sure what the exact CRT aspect ratio formula for Genesis/MD is, but I figure if I set it to match the 256 mode since they look the same on a CRT, it works.

 

Apparently there is some variance in CRT aspect ratio to some degree if you watch My Life in Gaming's thingy on the Nt Mini, which I somehow missed until last week, but I think I'll continue to use the (8/7)256 x (vertical integer scale) = horizontal width formula for now and hope that the new Nt Mini gets h. interpolation. If not, at least I'll have a nice RGB Famicom for my Trinitron.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[CZroe]

HD-NES does support 4x (you don't need 5x) which is sharp without needing interpolation. As you state, the NT mini does support 5x, again, not needing interpolation.
 
You'll have minor black borders, but again, a tiny price to pay for perfect, sharp pixels that scroll with no shimmering.

Right, but you said "proper CRT aspect ratio...without interpolation...scaled at an integer level." You can't get a proper aspect ratio without interpolation. You can't get a proper aspect ratio with an integer scale for most of the resolutions used in retro gaming. It's a trade-off.

Like you, I'm a huge proponent of a proper integer scale but the trade-off most prefer is a vertical integer scale with horizontal interpolation to get the correct aspect ratio without shimmering artifacts from variable pixel widths.

Neither the Hi-Def NES nor the Nt Mini have a "proper CRT aspect ratio" with integer scaling. Your horizontal integer scaling options force you to tolerate a worse aspect with 4x vertical than 5x vertical (further off from a proper 4:3 image area). Still, I tolerate it for sharp pixels. At least I'm not stretching to 16:9.

[Steven Pendleton]

6 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Right, but you said "proper CRT aspect ratio...without interpolation...scaled at an integer level." You can't get a proper aspect ratio without interpolation. You can't get a proper aspect ratio with an integer scale for most of the resolutions used in retro gaming. It's a trade-off.

Like you, I'm a huge proponent of a proper integer scale but the trade-off most prefer is a vertical integer scale with horizontal interpolation to get the correct aspect ratio without shimmering artifacts from variable pixel widths.

Neither the Hi-Def NES nor the Nt Mini have a "proper CRT aspect ratio" with integer scaling. Your horizontal integer scaling options force you to tolerate a worse aspect with 4x vertical than 5x vertical (further off from a proper 4:3 image area). Still, I tolerate it for sharp pixels. At least I'm not stretching to 16:9.

Yes, I might try it in either 1080 with 4X height and 5X width or 720 with whatever is appropriate for that resolution if it doesn't have interpolation. I think there may be worse things than running it in 16:9, though... imagine the horror of changing it to 9:16 and running it in GAME SACK TATE MODE! And yes, as a Japanese speaker, I call it tate mode just like Joe does, not 縦. Or you know, vertical, since my native language, English, has a word that means vertical, so no need to use another language's word for something that already exists in mine.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[CZroe]

Uh, in that video you yourself linked. 
 
Set your NT mini to 4x by 6x and your TV to 4:3 (12:39 in the video). Boom. Perfect integer scale pixels, proper aspect ratio (not square) and NO interpolation needed for no shimmers.

If your TV reduces the image to 4:3, I've got news for you: You lost your integer scale. The TV either resamples to interpolate or deletes vertical columns for uneven pixel sizes (non-integer scale with shimmering scrolling). If you can't physically fit an integer scale in a perfect 4:3 area of native pixels then a button doesn't change that. It's a physical limitation, like a square peg in a round hole. Shaving those pegs defeats the purpose of an integer scale.

[afx_acid]

2 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Too bad there is nothing that Analogue can do about it legally that I know of. People were doing the same for the Limited Run Games releases of Rebel Assault and Secret of Monkey Island before the actual preorders were live. I wonder if any of those fools who scalped on ebay sold and had to cancel because they were not able to get them from LRG before they sold out. I hope so.

eBay's policy on pre-sale items is that the seller must be able to fulfill the order and deliver the item within 30 days of sale. As the new NT Mini run doesn't ship until ~June (I think), anyone can report the listings. Whether eBay take action however, I don't know. I would hope that they would close the listings.

 

"Presale listings must clearly state that they are "presale" in the title and description, and guarantee delivery within 30 days of purchase."

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-policies/presale-listings-policy?id=4252

 

I've noticed that most of the listings do not mention the release date and have the normal delivery estimates as if this was a readily available item. If the sellers weren't already scummy enough.

[Mattelot]

4 hours ago, atmn said:

My guess that Kevtris does not want the added pressure to release the jailbroken fw on the v2.

Just if it comes, its a bonus.

 

Since its totally silence in this matter I would assume that the firmwares arent compatibles between. If they where, I dont understand why not it souldnt be mentioned at all.

 

In Analogues official point of view it is the same Nt Mini we all love since its never been any official jailbreak. The addition is updated UI.

That's very likely.  I know that RetroRGB did a video on the system and had an interview with Kevtris as well.  They said nobody is going to buy one without jailbreaking it.  

[atmn]

2 hours ago, Mattelot said:

That's very likely.  I know that RetroRGB did a video on the system and had an interview with Kevtris as well.  They said nobody is going to buy one without jailbreaking it.  

Might be somewhat true. That was before the MiSTer-boom.

Real cart users still loves the NtM with the possibility to read carts in realtime.

 

Among my three FPGA-analogue consoles its the Nt Mini I have been using by far the most.

[BlueBart]

 

Anyone know which HDMI version the Nt Mini outputs? (HDMI 1.0, 1.2a, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.4, 1.4b, 2.0, 2.0b or 2.1)

 

When using Nt Mini's HDMI output, is there any benefit to a HDTV/Monitor with a 240Hz refresh rate?... What about 120Hz?

 

[cybercylon]

I just hope no one falls for one of those pre-sale ebay scams considering that one can still pre-order one as of right now. I am surprised by that (still available). That availability does tempt me on occasion.

 

I am wondering if that July ship date is optimistic given current events.

[Toth]

I hope the Pocket is just as limited ?

Edited March 4, 2020 by Toth

[XtraSmiley]

8 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

It's fine, and sure. You came off harsh, especially when you accused me of not understanding basic marketing the other day (which you'll notice I ignored completely until now, and I do understand it since I studied marketing and business professionally for almost 4 years to get my degree), but seeing as you were accounting for the TV aspect ratio correction, I can see where the confusion comes from. I am not sure what the exact CRT aspect ratio formula for Genesis/MD is, but I figure if I set it to match the 256 mode since they look the same on a CRT, it works.

 

Apparently there is some variance in CRT aspect ratio to some degree if you watch My Life in Gaming's thingy on the Nt Mini, which I somehow missed until last week, but I think I'll continue to use the (8/7)256 x (vertical integer scale) = horizontal width formula for now and hope that the new Nt Mini gets h. interpolation. If not, at least I'll have a nice RGB Famicom for my Trinitron.

Hey, to be fair, I thought I said you only understood it 50%! I was being snarky for sure, but I stand by my point on that one. It's pure BS from Analogs part. The thing is still probably for pre-order now and will be for a week or whatever they need to hit some number.

 

As for Genesis and SNES, I thought we were talking (complaining) about the MNT not having interpolation, which I feel isn't a big deal (but understand why others are hopeful it has). No idea about MegaSD or SNES as I don't have those systems.

[XtraSmiley]

8 hours ago, CZroe said:

Right, but you said "proper CRT aspect ratio...without interpolation...scaled at an integer level." You can't get a proper aspect ratio without interpolation. You can't get a proper aspect ratio with an integer scale for most of the resolutions used in retro gaming. It's a trade-off.

Like you, I'm a huge proponent of a proper integer scale but the trade-off most prefer is a vertical integer scale with horizontal interpolation to get the correct aspect ratio without shimmering artifacts from variable pixel widths.

Neither the Hi-Def NES nor the Nt Mini have a "proper CRT aspect ratio" with integer scaling. Your horizontal integer scaling options force you to tolerate a worse aspect with 4x vertical than 5x vertical (further off from a proper 4:3 image area). Still, I tolerate it for sharp pixels. At least I'm not stretching to 16:9.

Is that true though? Interpolation affects the picture. Whether it's blurring, or softening, or adding things that were never there. I would argue most purest (people who drop $500 on a retro system anyway) probably prefer perfectly sharp pixels with a slight aspect ration inaccuracy, which to be honest, is made out to be a much bigger deal than it is. Setting your h/v to close enough is way less noticeable to the discussing eye than a blurry image from interpolation. Screen tearing of course being the worst of the bunch.

 

Anyway, I won't argue with you about which is better, I will concede that there is no reason to be against Kevtris adding this feature if he can, I'll just voice my opinion that if he doesn't to the NTM v2, it's not that big of a deal.

 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

Just now, XtraSmiley said:

Hey, to be fair, I thought I said you only understood it 50%! I was being snarky for sure, but I stand by my point on that one. It's pure BS from Analogs part. The thing is still probably for pre-order now and will be for a week or whatever they need to hit some number.

 

As for Genesis and SNES, I thought we were talking (complaining) about the MNT not having interpolation, which I feel isn't a big deal (but understand why others are hopeful it has). No idea about MegaSD or SNES as I don't have those systems.

So basically I understand why people wouldn't rush to buy it after seeing the price, but given that everywhere on the internet I see people complaining that it's out of stock for several years and they want to buy it, I was still surprised that it wasn't sold out. And that it's still not sold out, for that matter.

 

I highly doubt that there is a huge profit margin on the Nt Mini (mostly because of the metal) and I also highly doubt that they are going to make very many of them because of that. I may be wrong, but I don't think Taber is going to show up and share the specifics.

 

Super Nt and Mega Sg both have interpolation for both axes, and Mega Sg gives you an option to disable h. interpolation based on the game's resolution.

[XtraSmiley]

Well I feel like the original NTM was only $400 or $450, so this being $500 (plus crazy shipping costs) makes this one a bit more profitable. Also, my point is, why are you surprised? I don't think he has an order for like 200 of them or something. He's going to sell as many pre-orders as humanly possible, then order that many to be made. Why would he "sell out" of a pre-order?

 

He's going to keep this baby open until the pre-orders start slowing down, then probably put out a Tweet or something fuel it again before closing it.

[Drunk_Caterpillar]

7 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

Setting your h/v to close enough is way less noticeable to the discussing eye than a blurry image from interpolation.

Fortunately you can test this right now if you own a Super Nt or Mega Sg. I do, and I can assure you that interpolation is far less noticeable than incorrect geometry, especially when you're familiar with the games. Maybe that not the case for everyone, but doing a side by side comparison with the excellent interpolation in the SNt and MSg it really is barely noticeable. 

[Steven Pendleton]

8 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

Well I feel like the original NTM was only $400 or $450, so this being $500 (plus crazy shipping costs) makes this one a bit more profitable. Also, my point is, why are you surprised? I don't think he has an order for like 200 of them or something. He's going to sell as many pre-orders as humanly possible, then order that many to be made. Why would he "sell out" of a pre-order?

 

He's going to keep this baby open until the pre-orders start slowing down, then probably put out a Tweet or something fuel it again before closing it.

Because preorders can sell out if they have a limited amount of materials/stock or a limited budget to do a lot of machining of metal, which is very expensive and time-consuming.

 

And yes, it is possible for preorders to sell out. MGS3 Subsistence NTSC-U limited edition sold out and some preorders got cancelled because they were not able to fill them all.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[zwooky]

13 hours ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

So I got tired of waiting for more info and reached out to Analogue to see if their team would tell me anything about the internals of the V2. I got a fairly cryptic answer, but something tells me that there’s more going on here than it seems:

 

 

 

So there’s more information to know, eh? Maybe I’m just being strung along...

I think you may be right about there being more going on than it seems.

I asked Analogue about their new cartridge slot and if a V1 can be retrofit and got this from Jonie:

"The Nt mini [v2] has many new hardware features that required fundamental internal re-designs. Unfortunately Nt mini [v2] redesigns like the cartridge slot and more are not compatible and interchangeable with previous Nt Minis."

I asked what the "many new hardware features" are but have yet to receive a reply.

Kinda bums me out.  Wish their Mini re-release was the same.  All the people that missed out whined & cried, now their getting a better version? (flame on!)

[NE146]

I wouldn't begrudge Analogue if in a couple of years they came out with a sub $200 product that surpasses the NT-Mini. 

 

Bottom line for now is people kept asking for another run of the NT Mini and they got it. That's pretty much end of story.  

[+eebuckeye]

Agreed.. except if Analogue comes out with a $200 NT mini in a year then that would be pretty bad.

[Intense.Mark]

13 hours ago, atmn said:

My guess that Kevtris does not want the added pressure to release the jailbroken fw on the v2.

Just if it comes, its a bonus.

Yes, for those who are still not sure of getting the NOIR, treat the jailbroken FW as a bonus. If the features doesn't justify the price, there are other choices like AVS (for those who uses carts and original controllers) and MiSTer (for those who wants to use different cores and loads ROMS)

[Drunk_Caterpillar]

17 minutes ago, eebuckeye said:

Agreed.. except if Analogue comes out with a $200 NT mini in a year then that would be pretty bad.

I mean, if the $200 version excluded a bunch of features present in the Noir then why would it be bad to sell a premium version of the Nt Mini? I think a lot of folks would probably consider it worth the extra dosh if it meant that they got all the fancy extras; built in DAC, controller included in the package, metal housing, all the funky extra ports for Famicom add-ons, etc.

[+eebuckeye]

Agreed.. that would be different.

[Drunk_Caterpillar]

1 hour ago, zwooky said:

"The Nt mini [v2] has many new hardware features that required fundamental internal re-designs. Unfortunately Nt mini [v2] redesigns like the cartridge slot and more are not compatible and interchangeable with previous Nt Minis."

That is very interesting.

[Intense.Mark]

18 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Adaptors or not, the Super Nt doesn't have the NES/FC core. I don't know if there is room on the FPGA for it, but it should hypothetically be possible. Maybe.

I'm one of those who voted to re-release the NT mini in change.org. I love the features of the Super NT (filters, 1080p resolution, carts etc) and I would like to get it with the NES/famicom platform and pre-ordered the NOIR. I'm not complaining about the price either but a lot of people here wanted a 200USD equivalent price as well.

[XtraSmiley]

1 hour ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Because preorders can sell out if they have a limited amount of materials/stock or a limited budget to do a lot of machining of metal, which is very expensive and time-consuming.

 

And yes, it is possible for preorders to sell out. MGS3 Subsistence NTSC-U limited edition sold out and some preorders got cancelled because they were not able to fill them all.

Agreed, preorders can run out if the product has a limited amount of stock/materials. I however believe Analogue will sell as many as possible and make enough to meet demand. Believing the NTM v2 is "limited" is the point where I think Analogue has people fooled.