FPGA Based Videogame System

[cacophony]

3 minutes ago, simbin said:

Can someone please link a legitimate source of this Nt mini vs Noir Jailbreak info being discussed, either from Kevtris or Analogue?

It's mostly discussion on discord, so there's no way to link it.

[SegaSnatcher]

5 hours ago, Slipard said:

Lack of space is confirmed as one of the reasons (time being the other) for no Intellivision on ntm1.

There is no space issues,  its not like the NT Mini loads every core at once.   The reason it wasn't added yet is because Kevtris didn't have the time.  

25K LEs is more than enough to handle INTV lol.

[Slipard]

 

5 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

There is no space issues,  its not like the NT Mini loads every core at once.   The reason it wasn't added yet is because Kevtris didn't have the time.  

25K LEs is more than enough to handle INTV lol.

Well, I suggest you directly call out Kevtris for publicly lying. He may, indeed, need you to explain him how to program FPGA.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Slipard

[SegaSnatcher]

15 minutes ago, Slipard said:

 

Well, I suggest you directly call out Kevtris for publicly lying. He may, indeed, need you to explain him how to program FPGA.

He's never said this in the discord, so can you quote where he said this?  Not saying you are lying, but I have never seen him say it was a limitation of resources.

Edit: Just did a quick search and I did not see Kevtris mention anything about a space issue, so you must be remembering wrong.  In fact he's said over and over how he still plans to port it.  Maybe I missed the post.

Edited July 5, 2020 by SegaSnatcher

[cacophony]

17 minutes ago, Slipard said:

 

Well, I suggest you directly call out Kevtris for publicly lying. He may, indeed, need you to explain him how to program FPGA.

Latest quote from Kevtris after probing: "the intv core will fit on the ntm 1 but I don't have time to add it"

[afx_acid]

3 minutes ago, cacophony said:

Latest quote from Kevtris after probing: "the intv core will fit on the ntm 1 but I don't have time to add it"

He confirmed no backporting of the bug fixes to the OG NT mini either.

 

I can't really blame kevtris as he can only work on one thing at a time and Analogue have him working on so many projects but considering Analogue were claiming "absolute accuracy" from the very start with the NT Mini (and is still in the website spiel), to know that these bugs will not be addressed in the same way that they will be with the Noir, especially as the Noir was advertised as "the same NT Mini you know and love", is really a damn shame. The core at its very basic - how accurately it runs the games - should be absolutely on par with both models, even if the original Mini doesn't get the updated extras like interpolation.

[cacophony]

12 minutes ago, afx_acid said:

He confirmed no backporting of the bug fixes to the OG NT mini either.

 

I can't really blame kevtris as he can only work on one thing at a time and Analogue have him working on so many projects but considering Analogue were claiming "absolute accuracy" from the very start with the NT Mini (and is still in the website spiel), to know that these bugs will not be addressed in the same way that they will be with the Noir, especially as the Noir was advertised as "the same NT Mini you know and love", is really a damn shame. The core at its very basic - how accurately it runs the games - should be absolutely on par with both models, even if the original Mini doesn't get the updated extras like interpolation.

 

I'm sure there will be bugs found in the v2 that will only be fixed when Nt Micro comes out. And Nt Micro bugs that only get fixed when the Nt Super comes out. The cycle repeats.

[CZroe]

...Now they said "Oh, by the way, it's just plain better than the old version", which they really should have stated when the thing was actually available for purchase. If anything, not saying as much earlier doesn't make much sense from a business perspective since they probably would have had higher sales if they had.

 

Close, but they wouldn't have had higher sales since the preorder was limited and sold out in a day. Those same sales would have gone to different people, who now feel that they were unfairly discouraged from trying.

 

 

It says right above the highlighted "updated UI".  How did so many people miss this?

 

Because it isn't as meaningful as you imply. It doesn't mean anything about extra functionality. The UI of each console has received updates over time without getting the underlying stuff overhauled with expanded functionality. We expected that to come with the new firmware that was promised for all Nt Minis and, even if we didn't, that's mostly cosmetic.

 

 

And new features should have been a given considering they have been on the same path of using a similar UI (with features) consistently since the Super NT's release, especially when they have mentioned before they want all future consoles to be consistent for DAC use.

 

Nt Mini is not a "future console," so Nt Mini Noir was not expected to be a future console.

 

 

Kevtris & Analogue have consistently provided a better and better user experience with each console they've released.  Why would they have taken 3-5 steps back with a simple re-release of the Nt Mini?

 

Isn't it obvious? Because the originals were selling for thousands and there was still money to be made off of that pent-up demand before cannibalizing that market with the Analogue 8. Many presume the they never even intended to stop making it during the Super Nt and Mega Sg offerings but they just couldn't manage another run when they had their hands full with those.

 

 

Yes I agree with you 100% — they could released the exact same product with slightly different branding and still sold gangbusters.  The question is “Why would you expect more of the same?”

Because they said it was and there was no history of this happening when they make another run of a console everyone was begging for.

 

 

The updated UI should have told many that it was a bit more than what should have been expected, at least for people who have been paying attention.  Kev has mentioned many times that the older FPGA in the original NT Mini was almost full and could barely do much more.  We’ve seen at least three years of development with a completely new UI and set up, the inclusion of a DAC and pretty robust features.

You're giving "updated UI" more meaning than it has. Expectations were set when they said "one final run," "all the same cores," "same," etc and made it a point to say that the improved/more-reliable cartridge slot was the only functional improvement.

 

 

If I was a person who had an older Nt Mini and saw this newer one, I would have given it a go regardless given how I’ve seen their track record.

 

What "track record?" This is literally the first time it has happened. The people ordering Nt Mini didn't think they were getting a second run of the original Nt with Famicom chips inside. The people ordering Ghostly Edition didn't get some massive, un-announced upgrade. The notion of this being part of their "track-record" is purely hindsight.

 

 

So, are all the people now being angry at Analogue angry incells pestering against The Last of Us 2 and their mother or do they know admit that I was right to call them on their bullshit and that their last move proved me plainly right ? 

Anyway, I am glad I ordered one and have no sympathy for those who didn't, mostly the same people that flamed me for being a whistleblower. You got what you preached for.

 

 

As a wise man once said: It's an impressive lack of understanding, but, well, not the first time with you.

 

Completely unrelated post from June:

 

It's an impressive lack of understanding, but, well, not the first time with you.  

Anyway, this thread has long gone uninteresting and low level, so as much as I dislike Discord, I will mostly be there so that you can be together in your "lowliness".

 

 

Go back to Discord, troll.

 

 

Do the angry tolls here get this upset when other companies add new features to their products in firmware updates or OS updates?

 

That's a mischaracterization. No one is angry because Analogue added features. Some are a little upset or frustrated that they missed their opportunity because they were misled about what the Nt Mini Noir would be.

 

 

[zwooky]

For anyone interested, here's my email conversation with Analogue from early March about the Noir details.  It lays out my, and others, frustrations exactly.

Obviously the short conversation starts from the bottom.  Note that on March 4 she said more details to come.  Unfortunately those details didn't come until 4 months later, when the Noir was sold out.  As feared in my response. 

 

 

When are you going to release the information?

Being a V1 owner, how do I know if I want to preorder a V2 without knowing all the details?

Doesn’t make sense asking us to preorder a product without telling us exactly what it is? 

When you finally release all the information, it’ll probably be too late to preorder (Since you say it’s the last run) !?!?

Please confirm any information to a loyal customer! (NT Mini, Super NT, Mega SG, & hopefully Pocket)

 

From: Jonie (Analogue) <support@analogue.co>
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 10:09 PM
To: Jeff 
Subject: [Analogue] Re: NT Mini V1 NES catridge slot

 

##- Please type your reply above this line -##

Your request (17490) has been updated. To add additional comments, reply to this email.

Jonie (Analogue) Mar 4, 11:08 AM HKT Hello Jeff,  We will release more detailed information on this, please stay tuned. Thank you.  Best Regards, Analogue Support www.analogue.co

 

Jeff  Mar 3, 8:57 PM HKT What are the "many new hardware features that required fundamental internal re-designs"? > On Mar 3, 2020, at 5:11 AM, Jonie (Analogue) <support@analogue.co> wrote: > > 

 

Jonie (Analogue) Mar 3, 6:11 PM HKT Hello Jeff,  Thanks for reaching out. The Nt mini [v2] has many new hardware features that required fundamental internal re-designs. Unfortunately Nt mini [v2] redesigns like the cartridge slot and more are not compatible and interchangeable with previous Nt Minis. Cheers! Analogue Support www.analogue.co

 

Jeff  Mar 3, 3:10 AM HKT Are you going to be making the new NES cartridge slot available for NT Mini V1 owners? I'm a loyal owner of NT Mini, Super NT, & Mega SG and would really like an updated cartridge slot for my Mini without having to buy the new version. So many issues with cartridges!! Can you make an adapter? Or make available the connector for my to solder?

Edited July 5, 2020 by zwooky

[SegaSnatcher]

51 minutes ago, zwooky said:

 

Jeff  Mar 3, 3:10 AM HKT Are you going to be making the new NES cartridge slot available for NT Mini V1 owners? I'm a loyal owner of NT Mini, Super NT, & Mega SG and would really like an updated cartridge slot for my Mini without having to buy the new version. So many issues with cartridges!! Can you make an adapter? Or make available the connector for my to solder?

Not trying to be mean, but how would that even be possible?  The cart slot is literally soldered to the pcb.  Kinda weird to assume they would offer a cart slot that isn't easily interchangeable. 

[zwooky]

1 hour ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Not trying to be mean, but how would that even be possible?  The cart slot is literally soldered to the pcb.  Kinda weird to assume they would offer a cart slot that isn't easily interchangeable. 

That's why I asked if they would make their new connector available for me to solder myself.

 

The point really was that I was asking 4 months ago what the details would be so I could decide if I wanted to pre-order or not.  I was right back then in thinking they wouldn't tell us anything until after it was sold out.  Not a big deal really.  I'm happy with the V1 Mini so it will do, and after dealing with multiple customer service issues, & the insane shipping I'm pretty much done with them.  As far as retro-gaming is concerned NES & SNES are what I grew up on so I really don't have any need for any of their new products.  Was thinking of getting a Pocket, just because, well ... Kevtris, but I'll pass.

[blzmarcel]

5 hours ago, cacophony said:

It's mostly discussion on discord, so there's no way to link it.

This is my biggest gripe with (in general) wanting to use Discord as a replacement for message boards. Discord is a fine platform for real time text and voice communications, but afaict, there is no way to easily search it from outside of Discord (e.g., from a web search engine) the way a lot of public forums and news groups can be.

[F34R]

I pre-ordered knowing that if it wasn't something I wanted to hold on to, I could sell it at cost or profit without any issues.

[CZroe]

I'm not sure anyone knows what the heck you're even talking about [emoji38] 

He's talking about me. It seems he's still a bit toasty after my sick burn a few weeks ago in much the same way I just (used his own words against him).

 

He had the nerve to complain about others in here driving Kevin away...

Can see why Kevtris is no longer hanging here... [emoji2357] 

Can't blame him.

 

...moments after he made a rude, presumptive, and insulting post that could only drive Kevin away. Zero self-awareness.

 

He did it in an unprovoked response to someone innocently expressing excitement about the Analogue Pocket:

 

 

When is the pocket suppose to come out? That thing looks/sounds great!

 

If you like the fact that you probably won't get the dock because it's limited quantity will be gone in a second and the fact that once released, all the bugs you will discover won't be fixed, yeah, it is great.

 

It's not even that I think it's unlikely or disagree with him. It's the hypocrisy of blaming it on others right after doing it that triggers me to point it out. It very well may end up being a fiasco like he describes but he's already calling it "fact" while worthlessly thread-crapping in response to someone else's positive post.

 

It doesn't just deny Kevin/Analogue the benefit of the doubt; it was offensively presumptive. The Pocket and dock haven't even gone up for preorder yet and he's already claiming it will be as bad as the DAC and cart adapter fiascos.

 

While some might think he was being obviously hyperbolic and facetious when he called it "fact," he had the nerve to defend his speculative response as "truth" while doubling down and calling Analogue et al (ie, Kevin) liars. Remember: It's a future product that hasn't even gone up for preorder yet. Think I'm exaggerating? Nope:

 

People come here to get the truth. If they want the lies, they have Analogue's website. 

Don't like me ? Ignore me. Your job, not mine.

 

That was before I even said anything so he was digging his hole deeper before talking to me...doubling down on douchiness in Kevin's own thread. Even went on about forming this opinion after having his eyes opened with MiSTer though Kevtris long ago said that kind of MiSTer talk here was not appreciated.

 

Seems that he could take his own advice about ignoring people since he just couldn't help exposing his hypocrisy again in the post you're responding to.

 

...but that wasn't the only hypocrisy he inadvertently exposed.

Ad hominem attack...

He previously complained about ad hominem attacks from other forum members, yet here he is calling people incells:

 

 

So, are all the people now being angry at Analogue angry incells pestering against The Last of Us 2 and their mother or do they know admit that I was right to call them on their bullshit and that their last move proved me plainly right ? 

Anyway, I am glad I ordered one and have no sympathy for those who didn't, mostly the same people that flamed me for being a whistleblower. You got what you preached for.

 

 

It's pretty wild that he takes something completely irrelevant as self-vindication... twisting reality to portray himself as a noble whistleblower, vindicated by Analogue's latest despicable move proving him "plainly right." In reality his earlier statement was just exaggeratedly negative speculation about a completely-unrelated product that has had no new developments. Zero. None. Nada. Didn't stop him from demonstrably deluding himself in front of everyone to imagine a connection that wasn't there and running with that!

 

At the same time he's so desperate to return the burn that he flagrantly mischaracterized what I said, twisting it in his mind to imagine I was more upset than I was ("angry")... and further deluding himself into thinking that I desired sympathy that he vindictively withheld. My response was literally "This is huge!" before expressing that I would have preordered if I knew and then speculating that it's probably no big deal since it hints at the more-affordable Analogue 8.

 

He's really reaching.

 

Reality: We don't even disagree, so I was actually calling out his hypocrisy. Yes, I agree that there could be a situation with the Pocket dock similar to the DAC and cart adapter fiascos. I never "preached" for Analogue. I just don't think it's appropriate to fault Analogue for something they haven't done in response to someone excitedly asking when the Pocket preorders will start and I think it's even worse to blame others here for driving Kevtris away from the thread.

 

Indeed, moments after our exchange it's pretty much confirmed complaints from Slipard and the like are what drive Kevin away:

 

From the man himself on Discord Today: 

kevtris  Today at 6:31 PM

I don't even look at my thread on atariage any more. lol

it's just complaining

 

He's not wrong.

 

 

...and it doesn't help his case when his complaint wasn't even real (imaginary scenario in the future). Oh, believe me: I totally get it. He's actually complaining about Analogue's past handling of stuff like the DAC and cart adapters. It's a justifiable complaint... if he weren't needlessly repeating it as an imaginary issue in response to someone's excitement about a completely different product. Totally uncalled for. What about that specific post triggered him to justify another complaint about the past fiascos with the DAC and adapters? If that were justifiable he could literally respond with a made-up negative story about anything Analogue-related and call it "fact" despite being totally non-sequitur.

 

 

 

[Sho]

4 hours ago, F34R said:

I pre-ordered knowing that if it wasn't something I wanted to hold on to, I could sell it at cost or profit without any issues.

This is definitely what I was saying many could have done in the same vein.

[CZroe]

This is definitely what I was saying many could have done in the same vein.

Yeah, but if you have reason to think it isn't something you want to hold on to and you know preorders are limited then you are just depriving someone else (scalping) by preordering anyway. I get that this is the only time Analogue ever limited preorders but everyone just keep ignoring this when making their points/rationalizations for why everyone should have preordered.

If everyone preordered with baseless anticipation for features that were not promised or hinted at (and, indeed, strongly implied the contrary) then they would have ran out of preorders even sooner. Even fewer who genuinely want an Nt Mini could get one. As it was, they were already sold out on the second day.

[Toth]

  

On 7/4/2020 at 9:32 AM, afx_acid said:

The UI is such a minimal part of the console, after all no one buys it to just look at the menu screens. It's the extra features that the Noir will have over the original NT Mini that are a sore point, most of all interpolation which will allow the games to be played at their proper screen ratio without pixel shimmering. After all, they were advertising the Noir, at its core, as the same product ("one final run", "the same Nt mini you know and love"). And while I do understand that products can be updated over time, without advertising the improvements beforehand it leaves us original owners with a dilemma over whether it would be worth buying the new model, after all $500 is a lot of money to be paying up front, months in advance of a product even being ready to ship.

 

All I can say is I hope us original owners at the very least get the new "100% rewritten" NES core if it turns out to be more accurate.

 

I just hope the "old" nes core is 100% accurate to the original nes.  If it wasn't I am not sure we can expect the new core to be any more accurate regardless of what they tell us as we were told the old core was "absolute accuracy" to the original nes.  Hasn't the Nt Mini been allowed for speedruns?  If the accuracy of that core is in question I doubt it will be allowed for speedrunning in the future nor would the Noir.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Toth

[Steven Pendleton]

So I tried a fun experiment today. Rather than getting a Super Game Boy 2, I decided to try the new SD2SNES Super Game Boy 2 thingy and test to see what kind of effect zero delay has on the clock in Pokemon Gold.

 

Basically what I did was get the Pokegear so I can use the in-game clock, save the game, and left the Super Nt on and running the game for just under 12 hours to see what would happen to the clock while I played another game instead. I set the game's clock to match my own watch, and I started at 1045 and ended at 2236. At the end, the game time showed that I had been playing for 11 hours and 51 minutes, which matches the time spent in real life, but I got some extremely strange results when I checked the game's clock.

 

It's Monday, so I set the clock to read 1045 on Monday when I started, and 11 hours and 51 minutes later, I checked the clock and it said 1440 on Sunday for some reason. I saved the game, power cycled the Super Nt, and the clock matched my watch and now says it's Monday, just like in real life.

 

I don't know why I did this, if anyone has tried this before, or why anyone would care about my results, but this is what happened. Maybe I'll try it later with the system set to fully buffered to see what happens.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Steven Pendleton

[CZroe]

I want to get ahead of the discussion that I already see happening on the Analogue Facebook groups.

They say Kevin confirmed that the expansion audio ADC is reserved for the 60 pin Famicom slot and the 72 pin slot will not have an ADC. They are all reacting as if this means no expansion audio for the Everdrive N8 and such. They are really demonstrating that they don't really know how these systems handled expansion audio all along.

Let's go all the way back to Hi-Def NES. Hi-Def NES uses the FPGA to replicate the NES PPU (graphics chip) and run it along side the real PPU since the real PPU only has analog composite output (NESRGB does the same to get RGB). Rather than digitizing noisy analog audio, the Hi-Def NES interfaces with the CPU too so that it can digitally reproduce the audio. Because audio can be generated inside the cartridge for some Famicom games, it also replicates all known audio chips inside official Famicom games. The only reason to digitize analog expansion audio would be for audio chips the Hi-Def NES does not support.

As many of you know, the Analogue Nt was basically a Hi-Def NES with a slightly better FPGA (supported 5x vertical scale) and a bunch of luxury features, like high-quality analog outputs, an ADC for expansion audio, dual cartridge slots, and a built-in multitap with EXT port. It also replicated the PPU and expansion audio chips in FPGA so it did not need the ADC for original games... only for new stuff someone might make that isn't implemented in the FPGA.

Now, the Nt Mini just took the Anogue Nt one step further and replicated the CPU too so it no longer needs original chips (it was already replicating the PPU, remember?).

If the Nt Mini Noir doesn't have an ADC for expansion audio through the 72 pin slot: You're in luck...since you never needed that for expansion audio with any of these products. It wasn't connected to anything in the original NES-001 and the pin wasn't even there in the NES-101 ("toploader"). Heck, I've seen someone with a Castlevania III Dracula's Curse expansion audio hack make cartridges with external mixing, which would obviously still work.

[CZroe]

So I tried a fun experiment today. Rather than getting a Super Game Boy 2, I decided to try the new SD2SNES Super Game Boy 2 thingy and test to see what kind of effect zero delay has on the clock in Pokemon Gold.  

Basically what I did was get the Pokegear so I can use the in-game clock, save the game, and left the Super Nt on and running the game for just under 12 hours to see what would happen to the clock while I played another game instead. I set the game's clock to match my own watch, and I started at 1045 and ended at 2236. At the end, the game time showed that I had been playing for 11 hours and 51 minutes, which matches the time spent in real life, but I got some extremely strange results when I checked the game's clock.

 

It's Monday, so I set the clock to read 1045 on Monday when I started, and 11 hours and 51 minutes later, I checked the clock and it said 1440 on Sunday for some reason. I saved the game, power cycled the Super Nt, and the clock matched my watch and now says it's Monday, just like in real life.

 

I don't know why I did this, if anyone has tried this before, or why anyone would care about my results, but this is what happened. Maybe I'll try it later with the system set to fully buffered to see what happens.

 

Sounds like a mixed up AM/PM deal, which made it advance a day at noon since the game thought it was midnight. 

 

 

That said, the RTC is supposed to run off it's own crystal for keeping time when the game isn't turned on so it's interesting to see it doesn't keep time from there while running on the system.

 

 

[Steven Pendleton]

3 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Sounds like a mixed up AM/PM deal, which made it advance a day at noon since the game thought it was midnight. 

 

 

That said, the RTC is supposed to run off it's own crystal for keeping time when the game isn't turned on so it's interesting to see it doesn't keep time from there while running on the system.

 

 

I thought the same thing, as well, but it couldn't have been since time went backwards from Monday to Sunday, and the clock matched my watch exactly after the power cycle, with even the day changing from Sunday back to Monday. I really have no idea what happened, but since I don't have a real Super Game Boy 2 and have to use the fake one on the SD2SNES Pro, maybe it's something to do with that.

 

At this point, all I can do is say "hey I did this thing and some weird crap happened", which is hardly scientific. That's also why I'm interested in testing it in the fully buffered mode, as well, although I don't know if it would change anything. Obviously having a real Super Game Boy 2 and real Pokemon would be best, but since I don't have a Super Game Boy 2 and my Pokemon Gold is in the USA with a dead battery...

[jamon1567]

1 hour ago, Toth said:

I just hope the "old" nes core is 100% accurate to the original nes.  If it wasn't I am not sure we can expect the new core to be any more accurate regardless of what they tell us as we were told the old core was "absolute accuracy" to the original nes.  Hasn't the Nt Mini been allowed for speedruns?  If the accuracy of that core is in question I doubt it will be allowed for speedrunning in the future nor would the Noir.

My assumption (without reading anything Kev said on Discord) is that the core needed to be rewritten to work on the new hardware. Which would also require whatever fixes were implemented (and not just for the NES core, but all the jailbreaks as well) to also be rewritten to back port to the original Mini. It's still disappointing that won't happen, but not surprising.

[cacophony]

5 hours ago, CZroe said:

If everyone preordered with baseless anticipation for features that were not promised or hinted at (and, indeed, strongly implied the contrary) then they would have ran out of preorders even sooner. Even fewer who genuinely want an Nt Mini could get one. As it was, they were already sold out on the second day.

IIRC it available for preorder for exactly one week. I don't think they were limiting quantity.

[afx_acid]

3 hours ago, Toth said:

 Hasn't the Nt Mini been allowed for speedruns?  If the accuracy of that core is in question I doubt it will be allowed for speedrunning in the future nor would the Noir.

On Speedrun.com, whether or not it is allowed is usually on a game-by-game basis, based on the decision of the moderators for that particular game. Either way, the NT Mini would need to using the analog output to match the exact frame rate/game speed of a real NES.

 

I know it's accepted as original hardware for Super Mario Bros but I'm not really sure about any other game.

[CZroe]

IIRC it available for preorder for exactly one week. I don't think they were limiting quantity.

You're right. It was available for a week before it "sold out." Guess I was thinking of the moment they opened up for a few more preorders on April 21st.

Anyway, they stated it was limited every step of the way:


Even before that, they said they needed 1,000 people to commit to buying one through the petition. It was definitely ended early compared to other products, meaning they weren't kidding about limiting it. I figure it was probably expensive aluminum stock for machining the housing where they might have to commit to twice as many units if they went over a certain amount.

They only ended preorders for past products when it was time to finalize the quantity for the first manufacturing run, meaning it stayed open for months. That definitely wasn't the case here.