FPGA Based Videogame System

[Atariboy]

I don't know why you quoted me for in regard to your reply, since I said nothing of the sort about them not following through by releasing this system.

[Mattelot]

25 minutes ago, Sho said:

I never understand this logic at all.  Say what you will about their marketing and distancing to their fans, but they've never given anyone reason to doubt that they won't come through on releasing product.  Sans a few delays & COVID, they've released everything they've set out to release, with many things having subsequent reprints, and an original console having a UI redesign and final release.  There's no reason why they wouldn't continue to release Pockets well into the future.  I have full faith in the fact that it will turn out to be their highest seller of all time, in fact.

 

Everyone had trouble trying to preorder a Pocket, that's just how it is now-a-days.  Same for PS5, XBOX Series X, Multiple highly anticipated Switch games, RTX3080s and so on.  And even with everything Analogue stated yesterday, it'll still be an ongoing problem. 

If the rumors are true and the pocket does NES, Super NES, etc... it will be their best seller.  If it only does handheld games, I imagine it will be one of the better sellers.

[Atariboy]

Even if it doesn't ever do those officially, I imagine 3rd party developers taking advantage of the more open nature of the Pocket will provide popular options such as those two cores. 

 

If I were to wager a guess, barring Analogue themselves officially supporting NES out of the box (Or the jailbreak firmware that hopefully will follow within hours of the release date including the Kevtris NES core), a 3rd party NES core quite possibly will be the first 3rd party offering we see.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Atariboy

[Mattelot]

55 minutes ago, Atariboy said:

Even if it doesn't ever do those officially, I imagine 3rd party developers taking advantage of the more open nature of the Pocket will provide popular options such as those two cores. 

 

If I were to wager a guess, barring Analogue themselves officially supporting NES out of the box (Or the jailbreak firmware that hopefully will follow within hours of the release date including the Kevtris NES core), a 3rd party NES core quite possibly will be the first 3rd party offering we see.

You're probably right.  Somebody would want to unlock the fullest potential and make something on their own.  

 

I only speak for myself but I would only use such a thing if it were from Kevtris/Smokemonster.  This is just due to how many garbage (hate saying that) things people have developed for Mister.  While I appreciate people working for free to help preserve retro content like this, rushed products tend to leave lingering bad tastes in my mouth.

 

An update on the SD card speed question I asked on the last page... I contacted Analogue and asked what the fastest SD card speed the console(s) can support is, they replied "a 16GB card should be big enough for firmware updates".  I had to reply and say "That's not what I asked you" and repeat the question.  

 

EDIT: I went into my mailbox and the same person replied saying "A 32GB card is the biggest it will support".  I'm quite perplexed...

Edited February 24, 2021 by Mattelot

[Pixelboy]

22 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

EDIT: I went into my mailbox and the same person replied saying "A 32GB card is the biggest it will support".  I'm quite perplexed...

You have to read between the lines: It's their way of saying "lol 1 second wtf big deal".   

[Mattelot]

I'm more inclined to believe it's a foreign person.  Like the time I went to a drive thru and said "what kind of drinks do you have?"  The guy said "yes."  I said "no, what kind of drinks... what brand?" and he replied "yes".

[Pixelboy]

1 hour ago, Mattelot said:

I only speak for myself but I would only use such a thing if it were from Kevtris/Smokemonster.  This is just due to how many garbage (hate saying that) things people have developed for Mister.  While I appreciate people working for free to help preserve retro content like this, rushed products tend to leave lingering bad tastes in my mouth.

There is another possible quality-driven option: Make GB-like cartridges designed specifically for the Pocket (i.e. carts that do not fit in a GB/GBC/GBA, but do fit in the Pocket's cart slot). If a generic cartridge casing could be designed, produced, and offered to the community, then all that remains is designing PCBs with 32 edge pins that are designed to be associated with custom FPGA cores. For example, one could do a PCB that contains a ColecoVision game (following the ColecoVision's cartridge pinout) and a custom ColecoVision FPGA core could be designed so that the Pocket properly interacts with the inserted cartridge. When you have those kinds of homebrew product solutions (like actual cartridges that can be sold) homebrewers tend to put more efforts into their projects.

 

This brings up some questions though:

 

1) Could the Pocket be somehow configured to automatically switch to the proper FPGA core if I switch cartridges of different types? For example, playing a ColecoVision cart right after a regular GB cart? Could the FPGA core be integrated into the cart itself and installed automatically at boot?

 

2) Could an NES/Famicom game (designed for carts with 72/60 pins) be shoehorned into a 32-pin setup? Given that Turbografx-16 HuCards have more than 32 pins and Analogue actually created an adaptor for such HuCards, perhaps it's possible to do the same with NES games. Or maybe not, I dunno.

 

EDIT: Another possible use for Pocket-only cartridges: Arcade games! Imagine playing the actual Moon Patrol arcade game on your Pocket, thanks to a custom FPGA core and the arcade ROM set loaded on the cart!   

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Pixelboy

[Kaide]

11 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

1) Could the Pocket be somehow configured to automatically switch to the proper FPGA core if I switch cartridges of different types? For example, playing a ColecoVision cart right after a regular GB cart? Could the FPGA core be integrated into the cart itself and installed automatically at boot?

 

2) Could an NES/Famicom game (designed for carts with 72/60 pins) be shoehorned into a 32-pin setup? Given that Turbografx-16 HuCards have more than 32 pins and Analogue actually created an adaptor for such HuCards, perhaps it's possible to do the same with NES games. Or maybe not, I dunno.

 

1) Including the core into the cart itself creates more problems than it solves, IMO. The cart adapters do seem to get detected by the MegaSG to kick it into the appropriate modes, so to me it seems possible, but I’m not certain how it’s implemented. 

 

2) Possible, but you’d need a bridge to accomplish it. One reason there’s so many pins is because you’ve got two address buses and two data buses. So your adapter needs to effectively change how data is passed along the 32-pin connector, and then present the expected buses to the cartridge. There’s a few ways to do it, but I think my naive concern would be over getting the timings right. 

[Pixelboy]

19 minutes ago, Kaide said:

2) Possible, but you’d need a bridge to accomplish it. One reason there’s so many pins is because you’ve got two address buses and two data buses. So your adapter needs to effectively change how data is passed along the 32-pin connector, and then present the expected buses to the cartridge. There’s a few ways to do it, but I think my naive concern would be over getting the timings right.

And then there's the question of NES mappers, which is a can of worms all by itself. Still, if just the most-used mappers could be supported, I suppose it would be enough for most NES homebrewers. Some could even go out of their way to release Pocket-cart versions of existing commercial NES games, but that could be a difficult technical endeavor depending on the game, and also be risky legally if done without proper licensing, although licensing deals are never impossible.

 

Anyway, if this could be made to work as intended, then the community could be more easily split between those who make FPGA cores for the Pocket, and those who just want to make games for the handheld: If an FPGA core designer makes a core for a specific Pocket-cart PCB, then homebrewers just craft their games around that PCB's given architecture and features. Then you don't need to be a jack-of-all-trades (knowing both FPGA core programming and game programming) to make cool stuff on the Analogue Pocket, people with specific expertise can just get together and make things happen.   

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Pixelboy

[Kaide]

1 hour ago, Pixelboy said:

And then there's the question of NES mappers, which is a can of worms all by itself. Still, if just the most-used mappers could be supported, I suppose it would be enough for most NES homebrewers. Some could even go out of their way to release Pocket-cart versions of existing commercial NES games, but that could be a difficult technical endeavor depending on the game, and also be risky legally if done without proper licensing, although licensing deals are never impossible.

 

Anyway, if this could be made to work as intended, then the community could be more easily split between those who make FPGA cores for the Pocket, and those who just want to make games for the handheld: If an FPGA core designer makes a core for a specific Pocket-cart PCB, then homebrewers just craft their games around that PCB's given architecture and features. Then you don't need to be a jack-of-all-trades (knowing both FPGA core programming and game programming) to make cool stuff on the Analogue Pocket, people with specific expertise can just get together and make things happen.   

 

Mappers are transparent to the cartridge bus. Even with bank switching, the game would just write to a couple specific address locations to tell the mapping chip to update what banks were accessible. So you really just need to figure out the cartridge bus and you should be in good shape. 

 

I see what you are getting at with the idea, but it has some trade offs that aren’t necessarily ones that make a lot of sense to me. Unless you are thinking of the Pocket itself as the target architecture, versus say, a game meant for a retro console running on the Pocket.

 

That said, if we are talking about retro consoles on the Pocket, then it seems like home brew as ROM files make more sense to me. Either done via a specialized flash cart with the “adapter” embedded into it, or through direct support of the SD card (like it apparently has for GB Studio). Physical carts for games are nice collectibles, but I’d at least personally tend to prefer those be in the format of the original system so it’s compatible with original hardware.

[Pixelboy]

5 minutes ago, Kaide said:

I see what you are getting at with the idea, but it has some trade offs that aren’t necessarily ones that make a lot of sense to me. Unless you are thinking of the Pocket itself as the target architecture, versus say, a game meant for a retro console running on the Pocket.

Well, releasing homebrew games from other systems (ColecoVision, Atari 2600, NES, etc.) can be seen as as a bonus outlet for homebrewers. Tons of Atari 2600 homebrews were released over the last decade or so, and I think it would be cool to have many of them on GameBoy-sized carts. Just the Champ Games would be great, but there are many worthy others.

 

9 minutes ago, Kaide said:

That said, if we are talking about retro consoles on the Pocket, then it seems like home brew as ROM files make more sense to me. Either done via a specialized flash cart with the “adapter” embedded into it, or through direct support of the SD card (like it apparently has for GB Studio). Physical carts for games are nice collectibles, but I’d at least personally tend to prefer those be in the format of the original system so it’s compatible with original hardware.

My thoughts are grounded in the idea of physical carts, and there are many out there who love to collect such novelty items, especially if they're not too expensive. Of course, Analogue Pocket owners who prefer to play games via SD card are not the target audience.

 

But my sentiment is that the real potential of the Pocket lies in becoming an FPGA version of MAME, and I think arcade games on GameBoy-sized carts would be hot items, especially if they're officially-licensed products. The Pocket may not be able to run more recent arcade machines, but without knowing the technical limits of the Pocket, I like to believe it could replicate many "relatively early" arcade games from the 80s, and personally, I'd like to own "real" arcade games on carts. 

 

I realize this may be far easier said than done, but hey, if you're going to make a platform open to homebrew game programmers, may as well set up the community with ways to make hard work shine in a rewarding way.

 

[Mattelot]

28 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

Of course, Analogue Pocket owners who prefer to play games via SD card are not the target audience.

I think maybe they are... indirectly or to an extent.  Analogue are not stupid, they knew from when the NT Mini had a jailbreak that many people were in love with jailbreaking their systems.  

[Pixelboy]

I meant that they are not the target audience of Pocket-carts.

 

[cacophony]

6 hours ago, Mattelot said:

I only speak for myself but I would only use such a thing if it were from Kevtris/Smokemonster. 

...

This is just due to how many garbage (hate saying that) things people have developed for Mister.  While I appreciate people working for free to help preserve retro content like this, rushed products tend to leave lingering bad tastes in my mouth.

...

 

Smokemonter (and few others) oversee the administration of the github for the jailbreak but have nothing to do with the jailbreak implementation.

 

What are the garbage MiSTer cores? The popular ones (NES, SNES, Genesis, TG-16/CD, GBA) are pretty much flawless at this point and to be honest the equivalent released Analogue cores have some catching up to do.

GB, SMS, and Neo Geo are all excellent. It sounds like your impressions might be based on info from two years ago, but a lot has changed since then.

Edited February 24, 2021 by cacophony

[SegaSnatcher]

7 hours ago, Mattelot said:

I only speak for myself but I would only use such a thing if it were from Kevtris/Smokemonster.  This is just due to how many garbage (hate saying that) things people have developed for Mister.  While I appreciate people working for free to help preserve retro content like this, rushed products tend to leave lingering bad tastes in my mouth.

 

 

I'm very confused by what you consider garbage on MiSTer in terms of its cores?  I think its a rather unfair statement.  MiSTer isn't perfect by any means, but a lot of the more popular cores are extremely good, far from garbage.  Being an owner of both Analogue consoles and the MiSTer I can say both have their Pros and Cons, but overall both are excellent ways to play older games. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by SegaSnatcher

[adamchevy]

I think maybe they are... indirectly or to an extent.  Analogue are not stupid, they knew from when the NT Mini had a jailbreak that many people were in love with jailbreaking their systems.  

I wouldn’t have purchased an NT mini noir if it couldn’t be jailbroken.

[Sho]

16 hours ago, Mattelot said:

If the rumors are true and the pocket does NES, Super NES, etc... it will be their best seller.  If it only does handheld games, I imagine it will be one of the better sellers.

The hype behind the Game Boy Advance support alone will make this console a top seller, if not the best seller.  I've never seen this much desire behind any of the Analogue products at all.  It doing everything else is like some sort of super icing when compared.

[vanfanel]

20 hours ago, Mattelot said:

 

 

I only speak for myself but I would only use such a thing if it were from Kevtris/Smokemonster.  This is just due to how many garbage (hate saying that) things people have developed for Mister.  While I appreciate people working for free to help preserve retro content like this, rushed products tend to leave lingering bad tastes in my mouth.

 

Do you even know what you are talking about here?

The MegaDrive and SNES cores on the MiSTer are WAY better than the ones on the MegaSG and SuperNT.

 

I have several MiSTer setups, the SuperNT and MegaSG, and I rarely use the Analogue consoles anymore.

I updated the MegaSG, saw the new fullscreen pixel blending (which I already had on the MiSTer more than a year ago) and put it to storage again because on the MiSTer I have better MegaDrive audio, flawless video on Master System mode (MegaSG SMS still tears in scrolling games), MegaCD, NES and all cartidge custom chips on the SNES core implemented, with a more polished core too. Oh, and NeoGeo, Commodore Amiga and AtariST implemented with absolute perfection.

 

Analogue consoles are.. meeeh, by now. But he MiSTer is on another level, you can't start to compare. It runs circles around anything Analogue has done so far, both in core availability and in core quality/fidelity. The public cores have won the FPGA race for retro, there's no rival by now.

Also, being public (vs the closed cores on the Analogue consoles) the MiSTer cores are also a true hardware preservation effort, while Analogue cores are private and a simple economic operation for people not related to me and I don't care about (same as they don't care about users being left with major bugs years after the MegaSG was released).

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by vanfanel

[Mattelot]

14 hours ago, cacophony said:

Smokemonter (and few others) oversee the administration of the github for the jailbreak but have nothing to do with the jailbreak implementation.

I know that.  I mean that I wouldn't take a jailbreak from a non-credible source.  I've jailbroken a handful of machines and seen various jailbreaks.

 

13 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

I'm very confused by what you consider garbage on MiSTer in terms of its cores?  I think its a rather unfair statement.  MiSTer isn't perfect by any means, but a lot of the more popular cores are extremely good, far from garbage.  Being an owner of both Analogue consoles and the MiSTer I can say both have their Pros and Cons, but overall both are excellent ways to play older games. 

I only speak for myself (as stated) but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my hobbies, more than most who claim they are.  I have to have things pristine.  To me, if something in my hobby is not pristine, it's garbage.  That may seem unfair but as I've stated, that's just to me.  I do not say that as a public label.  While some aspects of Mister were good, others did not impress me (personally).  I'm not going to get into the specifics as it ends up being a pointless back/forth like when you get some Pi fan who insists that his Pi has 0 lag, is a 1:1 recreation, reference quality, etc.  After a certain point, you know they're just rationalizing and not worth continuing the conversation.  I do not mean any disrespect.

 

10 hours ago, adamchevy said:

I wouldn’t have purchased an NT mini noir if it couldn’t be jailbroken.

I own a bunch of original carts and accessories, so it only makes sense.  But I get what you're saying.  

 

52 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

Do you even know what you are talking about here?

The MegaDrive and SNES cores on the MiSTer are WAY better than the ones on the MegaSG and SuperNT.

Yes I do.  And we can agree to disagree.  This is pretty much exactly what I was telling SegaSnatcher.  Reminds me of the Super NT vs Mister debate on Twitter.  You have a handful of people saying Mister is shit and a handful saying Super NT is shit.  We all have our opinions on the matter and preferences.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Mattelot

[vanfanel]

2 hours ago, Mattelot said:

 

Yes I do.  And we can agree to disagree.  This is pretty much exactly what I was telling SegaSnatcher.  Reminds me of the Super NT vs Mister debate on Twitter.  You have a handful of people saying Mister is shit and a handful saying Super NT is shit.  We all have our opinions on the matter and preferences.

What preferences? This is not about preferences but implementation quality, correctness and features.

 

MegaSG vs MiSTer

 

MiSTer

-Perfect audio and video, no desyncs, no tearing even in single buffer mode (zero lag).

All MegaCD games work, even Virtua Racing works because we have a PUBLIC Sega custom chip (SVP) FPGA implementation on board.

 

MegaSG

-Wrong SMS FM audio (Rastan sounds like ass), wrong SMS graphics (tearing, f**ing tearing, no matter what buffering mode you chose), some major MegaCD games crashing.

 

SuperNT vs MiSTer

 

MiSTer

-Perfect implementation with almost ALL custom chips on board, again in public form. StarFox, Yoshi's Island, Super Mario RPG... yeah, they all work here with ZERO problems.

-Perfect video for all TVs thanks to infinite configuration options.

 

SuperNT

-No custom chip support beyond DSP-1. No Starfox, no MarioRPG, etc. Bah.

-Bad 1080p scanline alignment.

 

No, it's not about preferences but technical facts. Not only the MiSTer cores are public (you're possibly USA-based so you don't know the importance of things being public) and open, but they DESTROY the Analogue cores in every possible way.

Edited February 25, 2021 by vanfanel

[Mattelot]

21 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

What preferences? This is not about preferences but implementation quality, correctness and features.

Preferences as in what people prefer to use.

 

22 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

No, it's not about preferences but technical facts.

You can't use the word "facts" and stick your answers full of opinions.  Saying "perfect audio and video", "sounds like ass" are opinions, not facts.  Being "perfect" is a matter of opinion in itself.  Do you know how many emulator fans I've talked to who said their emulator outputs were "perfect" and would fight tooth/nail to defend that position?

 

23 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

DESTROY the Analogue cores in every possible way.

Thank you for more of your opinions.  This is exactly why I said 

 

2 hours ago, Mattelot said:

After a certain point, you know they're just rationalizing and not worth continuing the conversation.  I do not mean any disrespect.

 

 

I'm glad you're happy with your product.  Let others be happy with their "preference" of product.  Have a great day.

[vanfanel]

48 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

Preferences as in what people prefer to use.

 

You can't use the word "facts" and stick your answers full of opinions.  Saying "perfect audio and video", "sounds like ass" are opinions, not facts.  Being "perfect" is a matter of opinion in itself.  Do you know how many emulator fans I've talked to who said their emulator outputs were "perfect" and would fight tooth/nail to defend that position?

 

Thank you for more of your opinions.  This is exactly why I said 

 

 

 

I'm glad you're happy with your product.  Let others be happy with their "preference" of product.  Have a great day.

Preferences? Do you even read me? I have BOTH: Analogue consoles and the MiSTer (just because Analogue consoles were released before the MiSTer: I wouldn't have them otherwise). So what preference? I will repeat: I have several MiSTer setups, SuperNT and MegaSG.

 

MegaSG FM audio in Master System games: Rastan is missing notes. It's totally obvious, it's NOT an opinion, it's a fact, there's nothing here you can deny or discuss: read me again -> On the MegaSG, FM AUDIO IN SMS MODE IS BROKEN BECAUSE ONE OF THE BEST GAMES IN THE PLATFORM LACKS/MISSES ACTUAL NOTES. Do you prefer that way of expressing it?

MI-SSING NO-TES.

Relativism won't get you anywhere when you have missing notes, it's wrong, broken, bad, defective.

 

MegaSG shows tearing in SMS scrolling games -> the SMS graphics are objectively broken. It's a fact, it's not opinable, it's a real defect, there's NOTHING to discuss, it's a MATERIAL fact,

and again relativism won't get you anywhere.

 

I could do the same for the MegaCD compatibility problems that the MegaSG has, and for the 1080p scanlines problem in the SuperNT core, but it's the same. FACTS: you can't argue on something that is REAL.

 

Do you know where do we have perfect AUDIO AND VIDEO without those DEFECTS? On the MiSTer.

There's no opinion about this: these are facts.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by vanfanel

[Mattelot]

Oh good lord...

No matter how many times you say...

 

54 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

I'm glad you're happy with your product.  Let others be happy with their "preference" of product.  Have a great day.

 

... they keep on going.

 

smh

[NE146]

Heh dont even bother. The guy for the past couple of years keeps pretending to be concerned about one minor bug or other, but he doesn't really care, even if they get fixed (and when they do he'll find another). His real agenda since day one was always just to shit on Analogue products as "inferior"  'Course no one cares.

22 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

Do you know where do we have perfect AUDIO AND VIDEO without those DEFECTS? On the MiSTer.

You aren't unique here.. so play the Mister man. See how easy that is.  because like you it makes makes zero difference to us here who like to exercise ALL options at our fingertips and have them available on a dime.

 

You going to rag on a raspberry pi? I like mine. You going to rag on Analogue stuff? I still like mine. You going to rag on MisTer? Sorry I still like mine. You going to rag on original consoles? I still like all mine. You going to rag on PC emulation? I still do it. You going to rag on At-Games products? Sorry, I still (kind of) like having them.  

 

Arguments about the ways to play are all futile to most of this crowd. You might as well be arguing about steak doneness at that point.. Use whichever one strikes your fancy at the moment. or works the best, or even the worst. 

 

 

 

[KAZ]

What exactly is garbage on the mister?  Atari 2600 core has a few minor bugs.  I would never call it garbage.

 

Edit: some have been fixed even in the last couple months.  I was trying to help with the compatibility sheet.  I wanted dintar pacman to work well.  

 

But other cores seem incredible and accurate.  

 

I dont like the lag on a pi.  I cant go back to that.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by KAZ