FPGA Based Videogame System

[Wolf_]

Not sure if the cost savings for an injection-molded case would have manifested themselves as readily as one might think. Maybe, now, in hind-site, as the demand seems there. I know if I were going that route, with an ideal that there would be production in the 100s or more, I'd probably opt for ABS or some other premium ballistic plastic. That and the fact that creating a custom mold or two for the case would need be amortized... I'd also be tempted to offer it without a case, as well, to keep the product accessible, which would come back to bite me, as most would pick that option and I'd wind up in a hole of my own digging. :E The benefit of the milled cases from a production stand-point, was even though they can be a costly on-demand service, one doesn't have to sit on inventory, in case the demand isn't there.

Make no mistake, I would always buy the current version of the nt mini. Imo the class it offers is worth the added cost, but a lot of people don't have as much room to play with in their budget and it seems wrong to exclude them when it would be fairly simple to cater to them about this entirely optional bit of flare that doesn't have any impact on performance/features offered.

[kevtris]

 

I think you'd be surprised how quickly those 500 would go, the sd2snes is far more popular than the super everdrive and people in the gaming community are definitely willing to pay more for better/best. Otherwise the NT mini wouldn't be flying off the shelves in the first place.

 

And last time I'll bring this up I promise lol.....

 

You would do well to start branding your products like "Kevtris NES Drive", you have developed the kind of reputation and name brand that money cannot buy, deservedly so. The Zimba 3000 should be the Kevtris 3000. But whatever, I have a feeling that analogue is gonna absorb that project anyway Should be the Kevtris Mini really, but I digress.

 

I just don't have the money to gamble, unfortunately. It'll cost around $30-40 thousand dollars to make a run of 500 (i.e. $60-80 each), along with a few hundred hours of my time. Unfortunately I don't have that kind of scratch to throw around on an unknown product. It's super expensive and time consuming to make something like this. There is crowd funding but I don't really have the time/effort to deal with that either.

 

 

Most fpga devs seem to go 90% of the way when working on a core. They get the custom chips done, memory, cpu, bus. and everything that makes up the core of the computer being emulated. No pun intended.

 

Then they stop.

 

If you look at software emulation trends, there are several prominent emulators that go the extra 10% to completion. They get the small stuff like virtual ports, more adjustment points, more configuration options. Even options to run on different OS'es. Altirra is a great example with all the drives and peripherals it simulates. Stella claims near 100% perfect compatibility (the latest version excepted).

 

I believe it will take some sort of industry-standardized hardware to stabilize this and provide the longevity so that cores CAN be completed and refined.

 

The problem is, there is a lot more to it than an FPGA on the board. You got all sorts of other peripherals that aren't standardized and arguably cannot be standardized. i.e. the memory, video, audio, controllers, and any control CPUs and stuff. AFAIK I am one of the few to ever take an FPGA core to completion (let alone over a dozen), and make hardware that runs it. In the future my boards will probably grow to encompass more/different memory and bigger FPGAs.

 

My vision of the "perfect" FPGA board is going to be different from someone else's vision of it and the peripheral set and FPGA chosen will be different from what someone else might select. There's thousands of possibilities and each one will be different. I might start using DDR, while others are stuck on SDRAM. Or maybe I want 3 RAM busses instead of 1. This lack of standardization is somewhat of a drag, but I see it as one of the biggest strengths. The board can have the *exact* set of hardware it needs, without including extra stuff that is unneeded.

 

The future does indeed look bright for FPGA technology, but in the end it's still customized hardware, vs. software that runs on a standard platform. It probably is going to be this way for a long time to come yet. The good news is once something is in verilog/vhdl, it's been fixed "forever" in a form that is adaptable to any modern technology for the foreseeable future.

[phoenixdownita]

Not sure if the cost savings for an injection-molded case would have manifested themselves as readily as one might think. Maybe, now, in hind-site, as the demand seems there. I know if I were going that route, with an ideal that there would be production in the 100s or more, I'd probably opt for ABS or some other premium ballistic plastic. That and the fact that creating a custom mold or two for the case would need be amortized... I'd also be tempted to offer it without a case, as well, to keep the product accessible, which would come back to bite me, as most would pick that option and I'd wind up in a hole of my own digging. :E Custom case molds for something this size, still cost in the 10s of thousands per. The benefit of the milled cases from a production stand-point, was even though they can be a costly on-demand service, one doesn't have to sit on inventory, in case the demand isn't there. It can ramped up or down, even if there might be some wait time.

 

It all goes back to the notion of function versus cost I mentioned earlier. The AVS, on a purely functional grounds, offers the same function for far less, but there are certain elements of design in the NT that aren't as easily tangible, that , to me, identify a better value product, something I expect to have better longevity in the long-run. The fact that other system cores can be run on it , as well, being a fairly thick, runny coating of icing. (Admittedly, that was what finally sold me, as I was tempted to mod some other systems, thus sending me over the edge..or at least allowing myself to rationalize. ; ) )

 

If you just want to play NES games, though, the AVS or a modded NES will do the trick rather nicely.

I think the benefit lies in the fact that the buyer is basically paying for all of it, the small batches allow to limit production of cases at the same time those same units go up in cost not trivially and the buyer ends up paying more for what amounts to "a block of aluminum", I understand people praising it at the same time it's really just to "allow" pay as you go batches, but I digress.

 

In the end I don't care as I am waaaaay past my 8bit days (shame on me, I know) so I really would like to get a Z3K though, the kevtrisnator, or whatever it's gonna be called.

Hopefully by the time one is in planning/designing phase a "plastic case" solution is offered.

[Keatah]

The pay-as-you-go method seems to work for CFFA3000. A USB/CompactFlash expansion card for the Apple II. The dude collects orders for a run of 250 or so boards and then goes ahead with production.

 

This seems to have worked well for 15 years or so. About every 2 years a "run" becomes available. And in the interim, you can find them now and then on eBay for 3x and 4x the price.

 

And BTW, it uses real level translators. Woot!

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

The AVS is 720p, only scales 5x, has unusable uneven scanlines, doesn't have support for additional cores (and never will), and imo is ugly as all hell, just for starters. Doesn't compare.

720p is better IMO. Also the scanlines look flawless on my 1080p ASUS. Scanline quality will vary significantly from one set to another. Zero cropping, and 4x3 pixels is slightly stretched but don't look that bad. Ideally 3.5x3 is the way to go as I tend to toggle between 3.5 and 4 depending upon the game. Chessboard moire patterns which are a fairly common NES dither technique to create the illusion of more colors, do not look as ugly as one might imagine they would. But any of the .25 or .75 modes, forget it. Honestly the 1080p 6x5 mode is overrated and if I had an NT Mini I would most likely run it at 720p 4x3 anyway. I have a low latency ASUS monitor and the lag is practically non-existent in 720p or 1080p. I also have an older 2006 Sanyo HDTV in the living room that only supports up to 1080i and the 720p pixels look surprisingly good on it. The decade old HDTV lags a bit due to the deinterlace filter on analog 240p consoles but runs flawless with 720p video.

 

Even if the look of the AVS were objectively amazing, nobody can debate how stupid that flap door is with that famicom slot.

 

The AVS isn't bad but it's more like a chevy compared to the NT mini being a rolls royce.

 

If you own an everdrive (120$), plus the avs (180$). I think the extra 150-200$ cost overall is easily justified for what you're getting.

I disagree. I already owned an Everdrive and a PowerPak and a flashcart of some sort for just about every console I own already. The Everdrive or PowerPak has added value in that I can use it on the FPGA console or on original hardware. And the NT Mini does not support ROM loading out of the box without the jailbreak firmware.

 

NT Mini is 2.5x more expensive than the AVS; shipping is a lot more also due to the added weight. Yes, the AVS does look kind of derpy when a Famicom cart inserted with the lid at half mast, but otherwise I actually like the aesthetic. It's got nostalgia for the side-loading NES as well as the top loading Famicom, fits right in with retro gear, and both units have the built in four score for US and Japanese games, PAL and NTSC, and other goodies. Also I don't particularly like the NT Mini aesthetic either, kinda looks like an "Art Deco" N64 console. And Scoreboard is fun to play with, which the NT Mini does not support. I suspect Scoreboard will gain popularity after the second run of AVS consoles ship out.

 

You really can't fault a man for driving a Chevy or a Toyota rather than shelling out for the Rolls Royce. And I made my decision to stick with AVS after the NT Mini was announced due to the price point and the AVS had all the features I needed in a basic package. And if I wanted analog output through the CRT, I can still plug in my old NES or AV Famicom. The jailbreak firmware didn't exist until a week after units started shipping out so did not affect my purchasing decision.

 

That said, I fully support Kevtris, and plan on getting the Zimba 3000 thing in the future whenever that happens.

[cacophony]

720p is better IMO. Also the scanlines look flawless on my 1080p ASUS. Scanline quality will vary significantly from one set to another. Zero cropping, and 4x3 pixels is slightly stretched but don't look that bad. Ideally 3.5x3 is the way to go as I tend to toggle between 3.5 and 4 depending upon the game. Chessboard moire patterns which are a fairly common NES dither technique to create the illusion of more colors, do not look as ugly as one might imagine they would. But any of the .25 or .75 modes, forget it. Honestly the 1080p 6x5 mode is overrated and if I had an NT Mini I would most likely run it at 720p 4x3 anyway. I have a low latency ASUS monitor and the lag is practically non-existent in 720p or 1080p. I also have an older 2006 Sanyo HDTV in the living room that only supports up to 1080i and the 720p pixels look surprisingly good on it. The decade old HDTV lags a bit due to the deinterlace filter on analog 240p consoles but runs flawless with 720p video.

 

Have you actually tried 1080p 6x5? I used to own the AVS, but after experiencing 1080p 6x5 on the NT mini I could never go back. It's a huge advantage IMO.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Have you actually tried 1080p 6x5? I used to own the AVS, but after experiencing 1080p 6x5 on the NT mini I could never go back. It's a huge advantage IMO.

I don't like my games cropped. Period.

[cacophony]

I don't like my games cropped. Period.

 

I'll take a little cropping over incorrect looking pixel aspect or scrolling issues any day, but everyone has different preferences

Edited July 21, 2017 by cacophony

[Andromeda Stardust]

I've never understood completionism. I get buying a game on it's merits, or even on occasion because it is rare (though I frown on the practice of buying a rare game simply for the rarity if you have no desire to play it, because you are denying someone else the privilege who actually does want to play it). Worst of all is complete set collectors. There is so much garbage out there, moreso if you factor in that not everyone has the same interests, so a game I like you may not.

 

The complete set collector just blindly bulk buys out so many games he or she has no intention of playing, then repacking and reselling the lots that contain duplicates. One way in which complete collectors buying up lots has changed the market is that many lots on eBay aren't genuine collections for sale (with often decent games) but the same common undesirables or store seconds being passed around over and over again by collectors, with maybe a couple uncommons thrown in to bait other collectors.

[GarrettCRW]

I don't understand the need for flash carts for the systems that can/eventually play on the NT Mini, especially since there aren't the incompatibilities with the SD card that exists with the flash carts (I'm thinking primarily of the Everdrive N8 and the Powerpak). Kevtris has already done the work of making these systems work, so why spend more money on flash carts that are sometimes less than perfect? It's not like normal carts, after all: the relevant data is all on a SD card, and that's what you need for the jailbreak software.

[Great Hierophant]

I don't like my games cropped. Period.

But I thought you still liked playing on your CRTs, unlike some people

Edited July 22, 2017 by Great Hierophant

[Andromeda Stardust]

But I thought you still liked playing on your CRTs, unlike some people

Toche.

 

If it's digital, I expect all 240 lines though.

[Tusecsy]

720p is better IMO. Also the scanlines look flawless on my 1080p ASUS. Scanline quality will vary significantly from one set to another. Zero cropping, and 4x3 pixels is slightly stretched but don't look that bad. Ideally 3.5x3 is the way to go as I tend to toggle between 3.5 and 4 depending upon the game. Chessboard moire patterns which are a fairly common NES dither technique to create the illusion of more colors, do not look as ugly as one might imagine they would. But any of the .25 or .75 modes, forget it. Honestly the 1080p 6x5 mode is overrated and if I had an NT Mini I would most likely run it at 720p 4x3 anyway. I have a low latency ASUS monitor and the lag is practically non-existent in 720p or 1080p. I also have an older 2006 Sanyo HDTV in the living room that only supports up to 1080i and the 720p pixels look surprisingly good on it. The decade old HDTV lags a bit due to the deinterlace filter on analog 240p consoles but runs flawless with 720p video.

 

I disagree. I already owned an Everdrive and a PowerPak and a flashcart of some sort for just about every console I own already. The Everdrive or PowerPak has added value in that I can use it on the FPGA console or on original hardware. And the NT Mini does not support ROM loading out of the box without the jailbreak firmware.

 

NT Mini is 2.5x more expensive than the AVS; shipping is a lot more also due to the added weight. Yes, the AVS does look kind of derpy when a Famicom cart inserted with the lid at half mast, but otherwise I actually like the aesthetic. It's got nostalgia for the side-loading NES as well as the top loading Famicom, fits right in with retro gear, and both units have the built in four score for US and Japanese games, PAL and NTSC, and other goodies. Also I don't particularly like the NT Mini aesthetic either, kinda looks like an "Art Deco" N64 console. And Scoreboard is fun to play with, which the NT Mini does not support. I suspect Scoreboard will gain popularity after the second run of AVS consoles ship out.

 

You really can't fault a man for driving a Chevy or a Toyota rather than shelling out for the Rolls Royce. And I made my decision to stick with AVS after the NT Mini was announced due to the price point and the AVS had all the features I needed in a basic package. And if I wanted analog output through the CRT, I can still plug in my old NES or AV Famicom. The jailbreak firmware didn't exist until a week after units started shipping out so did not affect my purchasing decision.

 

That said, I fully support Kevtris, and plan on getting the Zimba 3000 thing in the future whenever that happens.

 

thou doth protest too much

 

definitely understand when factoring in the price, but if you were to sell your everdrive and your avs you're oh so close. are the avs still sold out? i actually made money on mine when i sold it a few months ago.

 

you have that asus 1ms monitor with the killer swivel? love mine, best monitor i've ever used hands down. seems to upscale 480p perfectly too.

 

edit, this thing.

 

https://www.amazon.com/24-inch-FreeSync-Monitor-VG245H-Response/dp/B01JGYM5H6

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Andromeda Stardust]

Mine is 9ms I believe. It's an older model 23" I bought in 2009. Now they're pushing the horrid ultrawides that IMO look terrible.

[Keatah]

All.. keep in mind the ms rating of a monitor is the transition from full black to full white pixels, or full white to full black pixels. Definitely doesn't include shades-of-grey transitioning. And has nothing to do with processing time.

[cacophony]

What's the input lag for a CRT? Is it the same for all CRTs or does it vary?

[Wolf_]

All.. keep in mind the ms rating of a monitor is the transition from full black to full white pixels, or full white to full black pixels. Definitely doesn't include shades-of-grey transitioning. And has nothing to do with processing time.

A common scam to boost numbers is to use grey to grey response times. While the monitor you are talking about might not do it, it is always important to know where the numbers a monitor gives you come from.

 

Also important is the type of display you get:

Tn, Va, or Ips

 

Oled or Qled

 

tl;dw:

TN = fastest so many gamers prefer these, but not the greatest colors also lowest cost

VA = middle of the road, better colors but not the best response time and not too expensive

Ips = great colors but typically higher input lag and can get motion blur, also higher price

Oled = excellent color range and perfect blacks but after a few thousand hours the colors degrade and you can easily get burn in. Potential for (in the future) unprecedented refresh times in the hundreds of hz.

Qled = greater color range than Oled but uses a backlight so it can't go completely black

 

There are also Lcd, Led, and plasma tvs but those are fairly dated and imo not going to be relevant choices.

 

Personally I'm eagerly waiting for the next generation of ultra responsive oled gaming monitors once they solve the burn in and color degradation issues. For now seems like a quick and dirty 1080p TN would be best for competitive gaming and a nice 4k ips would be best for not as intense stuff and general viewing experiences.

 

For a glimpse on the subject of 0 latency oled displays: in 2016 nvidia showed a demo of a 1,700hz display!!! They haven't released any details about it but the only possibility I'm aware of would be by using Oled which means that we just need to solve the burn in and color degradation issues to have a new age of gaming.

[Keatah]

A common scam to boost numbers is to use grey to grey response times.

 

That would be incorrect. The fastest time is full black to white or full white to black. This is because the crystals are exposed to their highest voltage potential and twist rapidly.

 

Going from, say, 200,200,200 to 180,180,180 is going to take time because the voltage potential is small, the crystals twist in a lazy manner AND the DAC can take time to settle in.

[Schizophretard]

What's the input lag for a CRT? Is it the same for all CRTs or does it vary?

 

For a standard definition CRT there is no lag.

[Wolf_]

 

For a standard definition CRT there is no lag.

And while that is the gold standard it is important to remember that on a quality digital display the lag can be so minuscule it adds up to under a single frame aka 0 impact on your game.

 

https://youtu.be/3l6hkXTj-lI

[mr_me]

What that video shows is that input lag should not be confused with ouput lag. Input lag like the video shows is the time the console uses to receive and process the controller input and produce a video signal. Output lag is time caused be processing that video signal for display. The two add up to overall lag.

 

Discussions should focus on output lag for displays and input lag for emulation and controllers.

 

Edit: I was expecting to see a similar video with a digital monitor to compare ouput lag. The video only demonstrates that input lag exists regardless of the display technology. And shows nothing about the lag caused by digital displays if there is any.

Edited July 22, 2017 by mr_me

[Wolf_]

What that video shows is that input lag should not be confused with ouput lag. Input lag like the video shows is the time the console uses to receive and process the controller input and produce a video signal. Output lag is time caused be processing that video signal for display. The two add up to overall lag.

 

Discussions should focus on output lag for displays and input lag for emulation.

As the same console is used for both tests input lag should be irrelevant because it remained constant constant in both tests.

One test measured the controller button to the console, out of the component video port to a crt.

The second test measured the controller button to the console, out of the component video port, to a wii2hdmi converter, to a (most likely) tn panel.

So from the console's component output port to a digital display through a converter resulted in minor enough difference in lag to still be the same frame as going directly to a crt.

 

In other words... whatever distinction you're trying to make is irrelevant.

[mr_me]

What's the input lag for a CRT? Is it the same for all CRTs or does it vary?

Analog CRTs are absolutely consistent and adds no lag regardless of age or model. It is that consistency that allows light guns to work. High definition digital CRTs process the video signal and can add output lag that can vary from model to model.

 

As wolf_ explained, when using a standard CRT there can still be input lag caused by the console.

Edited July 22, 2017 by mr_me

[Wolf_]

 

What's the input lag for a CRT? Is it the same for all CRTs or does it vary?

 

Right, and "input lag" (as in the term) isn't what he was asking for, but for output lag. He wasn't interested in defining the terminology. I don't think nitpicking that the words he used to describe the question he was asking are actually a highly technical term 2 people on the planet probably care about does anything to answer his question or contribute to the conversation...

[Tusecsy]

Mine is 9ms I believe. It's an older model 23" I bought in 2009. Now they're pushing the horrid ultrawides that IMO look terrible.

you must not own a console post 2007 then. ultra wide is perfect for the switch.

 

looks like the asus I referenced is a "TN" model, the colors do look really nice particularly on the switch but I can see how they leave a little to be desired. input/output lag is priority #1 for me though.

 

the 1ms response time is indeed grey to grey, need to just test it with 2 monitors in 240p test suite i guess.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Tusecsy