FPGA Based Videogame System

[RabidWookie]

Seeing how NES carts run on 5V too, this is not a problem. I am talking about the usually pirate/poorly designed things like the 8 bit music power cart. These things tend to use 3.3V ROMs without any level translation which isn't the best idea (for the cart) since this is running the flash chips outside their recommended operating range. This is not an nt mini problem, the same thing would happen on a stock NES.

 

Oh ok, I only use original carts (no repros or newly manufactured carts) on my Analogue NT Mini so I should be fine then. I've been intrigued by the new RetroBit SNES and NES carts, has anyone checked to see if they run at the correct voltage?

[Great Hierophant]

 

Oh ok, I only use original carts (no repros or newly manufactured carts) on my Analogue NT Mini so I should be fine then. I've been intrigued by the new RetroBit SNES and NES carts, has anyone checked to see if they run at the correct voltage?

 

No, they do not. Their stuff has made my list here : http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2017/08/flawed-risky-and-dangerous-devices-for.html(read the section " Licensed Compilations that use 3.3v Flash")

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

No, they do not. Their stuff has made my list here : http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2017/08/flawed-risky-and-dangerous-devices-for.html(read the section " Licensed Compilations that use 3.3v Flash")

Some small time repro makers still use newly printed repro boards with 74xx logic series chips and 5v DIP style EPROMs. Some larger players have already converted to flash chips and soon all may have to as reliable sources for NOS EPROM chips (write once or UV Erasable) become exhausted. Most PCBs manufactured in high quantity (bootlegs or commercial repros) are probably 3.3V flash due to economies of scale, and surface mount 5V parts being phased out.

 

That being said, as an avid nerdlypleasures reader, I love the highly informative articles you've posted over time. However one that has become the subject of much misinterpretation and fear mongering is your essay on the use of 3.3V logic in 5V consoles. Much of this is unfounded, with exactly one confirmed report of a Famicom being unoperable after having played a repro cart, while thousands of consoles continued to operate normally after having played said repros. That said, if anything, the 3.3V flash chips being operated out of spec will be the first parts to fail, not the 5V logic directly driving it. So the life expectancy of 3.3V flash repros is questionable, the life expectancy of the consoles are proven.

 

Kevtris has pointed out that 3.3v logic isn't likely to damage his or other third party FPGA clones, nor stock OEM hardware, but that the 3.3v parts may fail over time (months, years?) being operated out of spec.

[Great Hierophant]

Some small time repro makers still use newly printed repro boards with 74xx logic series chips and 5v DIP style EPROMs. Some larger players have already converted to flash chips and soon all may have to as reliable sources for NOS EPROM chips (write once or UV Erasable) become exhausted. Most PCBs manufactured in high quantity (bootlegs or commercial repros) are probably 3.3V flash due to economies of scale, and surface mount 5V parts being phased out.

 

That being said, as an avid nerdlypleasures reader, I love the highly informative articles you've posted over time. However one that has become the subject of much misinterpretation and fear mongering is your essay on the use of 3.3V logic in 5V consoles. Much of this is unfounded, with exactly one confirmed report of a Famicom being unoperable after having played a repro cart, while thousands of consoles continued to operate normally after having played said repros. That said, if anything, the 3.3V flash chips being operated out of spec will be the first parts to fail, not the 5V logic directly driving it. So the life expectancy of 3.3V flash repros is questionable, the life expectancy of the consoles are proven.

 

Kevtris has pointed out that 3.3v logic isn't likely to damage his or other third party FPGA clones, nor stock OEM hardware, but that the 3.3v parts may fail over time (months, years?) being operated out of spec.

 

The community does not speak with one voice on the subject of whether running 3.3v carts damage 5v consoles, but the informed consumer should have the benefit of the "worst-case scenario" should he use a cart like the ones retro-bit are selling. Nonetheless I will add something acknowledging the controversy.

 

However, I do not believe that anyone is likely to defend seriously the shoddy build quality of the retro-bit cart PCBs except that it reduces the cost of the product. If you consider the Krikzz products with its current limiting resistors as a 2nd rate design, these retro-bit carts don't even have those. They are (maybe) just above the level of the 8-bit Music Power cart that may have taken out the Famicom you mention. I would not rely on anything past the warranty period. The products are still fundamentally flawed. If retro-bit put level translators in those cartridges, I would have no reason to complain about their build quality except for the Data East cart that does not fit in a front loader ;p

[RabidWookie]

 

No, they do not. Their stuff has made my list here : http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2017/08/flawed-risky-and-dangerous-devices-for.html(read the section " Licensed Compilations that use 3.3v Flash")

 

Wow, thank you for writing such a detailed and informative piece about this, more gamers need to be aware of the issue! Is it possible to repurpose an original, say, Genesis cartridge and simply reflash the rom?

[RabidWookie]

 

 

That being said, as an avid nerdlypleasures reader, I love the highly informative articles you've posted over time. However one that has become the subject of much misinterpretation and fear mongering is your essay on the use of 3.3V logic in 5V consoles. Much of this is unfounded, with exactly one confirmed report of a Famicom being unoperable after having played a repro cart, while thousands of consoles continued to operate normally after having played said repros. That said, if anything, the 3.3V flash chips being operated out of spec will be the first parts to fail, not the 5V logic directly driving it. So the life expectancy of 3.3V flash repros is questionable, the life expectancy of the consoles are proven.

 

 

 

 

Providing the science behind running 3.3V parts in 5V consoles is not fearmongering, it's educating the community about a serious issue. Also, you not having any anecdotal evidence of consoles failing due to using 3.3V parts doesn't prove the safety of using said parts. If I don't know anyone who died from smoking that doesn't prove smoking is safe.

Edited January 2, 2018 by RabidWookie

[Keatah]

I believe a lot of the appearance of fearmongering comes from lack of understanding of how it all fits together. Throw in having to search hard for information that may turn out to be unreliable just makes it all more confusing.

 

When all is considered and done I prefer that voltages and currents match up and be in spec. While I don't go out of my to pick & match peripherals and carts and things that match in voltage levels, I will take note if something is bought to my attention.

 

There's like a billion videogames out there, so, if this 3.3 - 5v problem rears its head, I'll take the safer route and skip it.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Keatah

[killersquirel]

Kevtris, would it be possible to add a VS arcade core to the Mini NT and possibly the Super NT if that gets a jailbreak? It would be awesome to play the arcade versions at home.

[RabidWookie]

An FPGA console that could perfectly play arcade games from the 80's and 90's with zero lag would be an instabuy for me!

[kevtris]

Kevtris, would it be possible to add a VS arcade core to the Mini NT and possibly the Super NT if that gets a jailbreak? It would be awesome to play the arcade versions at home.

vs. support is already in the nes core. you need nes 2.0 ROMs to make it work right, however, and there might be some other issues I can't think of at the moment that makes it not work (like coin inputs). I ran out of time to test it all. All of the RGB PPU palettes and stuff are in there

[RabidWookie]

Hey Kev, so you think Genesis/Sega CD/32x cores would be possible with the NT Mini or Super NT?

[F34R]

vs. support is already in the nes core. you need nes 2.0 ROMs to make it work right, however, and there might be some other issues I can't think of at the moment that makes it not work (like coin inputs). I ran out of time to test it all. All of the RGB PPU palettes and stuff are in there

Hmm... that's really interesting. Just tossing the file in the proper NES dir would work? I mean, maybe?

[Great Hierophant]

Hmm... that's really interesting. Just tossing the file in the proper NES dir would work? I mean, maybe?

 

I'm afraid that currently, Vs. System support is more complex than kevtris has indicated : http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2017/11/analogue-nt-mini-vs-system-support.html

[cfillak]

Hey Kev, so you think Genesis/Sega CD/32x cores would be possible with the NT Mini or Super NT?

He's addressed this before. Genesis is probably possible on the Super NT's FPGA, most likely not on the NT Mini. Whether or not Analogue releases a standalone Genesis console remains to be seen. Kevtris has said in this thread that Sega CD and 32X are not in the cards at any point in the foreseeable future. I think our best bet for CD/32X support is a standalone Genesis console with the necessary expansion slots for original CD and 32X units.

[RabidWookie]

The 32x outputs video instead of the Genesis when connected, so I don't see how that'd be possible. The Sega CD doesn't add much to the Genesis in terms of processing, so I assume it wouldn't be especially difficult to implement.

[Wolf_]

The 32x outputs video instead of the Genesis when connected, so I don't see how that'd be possible. The Sega CD doesn't add much to the Genesis in terms of processing, so I assume it wouldn't be especially difficult to implement.

The video would still be output from the 32x if it were to plug into the Super Nt with an adapter or a Genesis version of the console. You would just need to convert your hdmi output to the Genesis 2 plug, or if they do release an analogue outputting version in the future simply use that. There shouldn't be any added lag going from native digital to analogue compared to the original console so that shouldn't cause any problems.

[RabidWookie]

The video would still be output from the 32x if it were to plug into the Super Nt with an adapter or a Genesis version of the console. You would just need to convert your hdmi output to the Genesis 2 plug, or if they do release an analogue outputting version in the future simply use that. There shouldn't be any added lag going from native digital to analogue compared to the original console so that shouldn't cause any problems.

I don't see how the 32x could possibly output a 1080p hdmi signal.

[Wolf_]

I don't see how the 32x could possibly output a 1080p hdmi signal.

It wouldn't. The Super Nt would be set to output the Genesis core's native resolution&clockspeed over hdmi and from there you would convert it to something the 32x was expecting and connect it, and the 32x would still output rgb at its native resolution, but you would get the benefit of having one less console and all the other stuff the Super Nt can do. Assuming of course it gets a Genesis core and cart adapter.

[RabidWookie]

It wouldn't. The Super Nt would be set to output the Genesis core's native resolution&clockspeed over hdmi and from there you would convert it to something the 32x was expecting and connect it, and the 32x would still output rgb at its native resolution, but you would get the benefit of having one less console and all the other stuff the Super Nt can do. Assuming of course it gets a Genesis core and cart adapter.

If it couldn't do anything a stock Genesis couldn't do then there'd be very little point. Everyone with a 32X already has a Genesis.

[Wolf_]

If it couldn't do anything a stock Genesis couldn't do then there'd be very little point. Everyone with a 32X already has a Genesis.

It could do plenty a stock Genesis can't do, like continue working considerably longer because it was made 30 years later, having the best picture quality, digital audio, having built in rom support, and the hundreds of non resolution based graphic and audio options for things like shaders and color palettes could be made available...

[RabidWookie]

It could do plenty a stock Genesis can't do, like continue working considerably longer because it was made 30 years later, having the best picture quality, digital audio, having built in rom support, and the hundreds of non resolution based graphic and audio options for things like shaders and color palettes could be made available...

...except it's bottlenecked by a 32x that was made 25 years earlier and relying on it not to fail. Besides, the Genesis only does a small portion of the video work on 32x games (usually just backgrounds).

[Wolf_]

...except it's bottlenecked by a 32x that was made 25 years earlier and relying on it not to fail. Besides, the Genesis only does a small portion of the video work on 32x games (usually just backgrounds).

....except all the things I described are things that are specifically not effected by the bottle neck. I suppose the shaders might not work depending on how the video is generated and it would be a lot easier to just wait for an all in one fpga solution to mature than coding something specifically for that use case but there are still plenty of benefits to owning a Super Nt with a Genesis core over a stock Genesis, not to mention if you want a Super Nt for other stuff that it can do why wouldn't you use it for a Genesis?

Edited January 3, 2018 by Wolf_

[cfillak]

The 32x outputs video instead of the Genesis when connected, so I don't see how that'd be possible. The Sega CD doesn't add much to the Genesis in terms of processing, so I assume it wouldn't be especially difficult to implement.

The Sega CD is actually pretty much a whole second, faster Genesis. It has its own 68K processor and everything, so it would be at least as hard to implement as the Genesis. The Sega CD is not simply a CD interface for the original Genesis. If it was, we'd probably have a Genesis Everdrive with the ability to load CD images by now, like the upcoming Jaguar SD cartridge can load JagCD images.

[RabidWookie]

....except all the things I described are things that are specifically not effected by the bottle neck. I suppose the shaders might not work depending on how the video is generated and it would be a lot easier to just wait for an all in one fpga solution to mature than coding something specifically for that use case but there are still plenty of benefits to owning a Super Nt with a Genesis core over a stock Genesis, not to mention if you want a Super Nt for other stuff that it can do why wouldn't you use it for a Genesis?

I was referring specifically to it's use with a 32X, I'll probably buy the Super NT to play SNES games and hopefully consoles my NT Mini can't handle on my 1080p TV.

[RabidWookie]

The Sega CD is actually pretty much a whole second, faster Genesis. It has its own 68K processor and everything, so it would be at least as hard to implement as the Genesis. The Sega CD is not simply a CD interface for the original Genesis. If it was, we'd probably have a Genesis Everdrive with the ability to load CD images by now, like the upcoming Jaguar SD cartridge can load JagCD images.

Right, but it's not adding nearly as much as the 32x is.

Edited January 3, 2018 by RabidWookie