FPGA Based Videogame System

[F34R]

I'm just as excited for the MLIG review which is going to be very detailed and come with that awesome interview with Kevtris.

Looking forward to that for sure. However, I'm simply interested in the Kevtris spot. I already know the SNT is going to be top notch if anything from the NT Mini has shown me.

[Jagasian]

May I guess?

 

I think there will be cores for the similar as the NTM got, BUT I dont think playing SNES games from SD-card will be a feature, at least for quite a while.

Analogue has already announced that the Super NT will come pre-loaded with 2 game roms: an unreleased version of Super Turrican and Super Turrican 2. This pretty much indicates that the Super NT will support playing rom files.

[SegaSnatcher]

I'm just as excited for the MLIG review which is going to be very detailed and come with that awesome interview with Kevtris.

From all the videos I've seen from Kevtris so far, the guy is truly humble.

[leods]

But isn't that more of a developers tool than something aimed at a mass consumer? Is it truly plug n play like a Nt Mini, AVS or Super NT? I could be wrong, but it seemed like the Myst Project targeted a totally different consumer base.

 

That being exactly my point. MYST isn't avelper kit It's an FPGA console. Unfortunately the cores aren't as good as Kevtris'. But as I said, if you just have a board some guy somewhere is making, people won't buy it, cause they might not even understand what it is. Kevtris would suffer from that with his Zimba.

 

How the Zimba was different. It was going to be cartridge based. My point is just user perception of these products. Outside of this thread and few ridiculously niche circles Kevtris doesn't really mean much at all. IGN would not be covering a board some dude was making. This is the difference.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

That being exactly my point. MYST isn't avelper kit It's an FPGA console. Unfortunately the cores aren't as good as Kevtris'. But as I said, if you just have a board some guy somewhere is making, people won't buy it, cause they might not even understand what it is. Kevtris would suffer from that with his Zimba.

 

How the Zimba was different. It was going to be cartridge based. My point is just user perception of these products. Outside of this thread and few ridiculously niche circles Kevtris doesn't really mean much at all. IGN would not be covering a board some dude was making. This is the difference.

For sure Analogue gets the presentation and marketing of such devices very well. I'm glad Kevtris decided to team up with Analogue. At this point I don't really care if the Zimba 3000 ever gets released, as long as Analogue keeps pumping out quality FPGA consoles I'll be happy, especially if the prices stay within the Super NT range.

[Pixelboy]

Analogue has already announced that the Super NT will come pre-loaded with 2 game roms: an unreleased version of Super Turrican and Super Turrican 2. This pretty much indicates that the Super NT will support playing rom files.

Yep. The only question remains whether ROMs of "special" carts (Mega Man X2/X3 come to my mind, in terms of personal preferences) will be able to run on the Super NT. Will I need to acquire the actual cartridges for those games?

[RabidWookie]

About a Neo Geo Analogue system, I'd love to get jamma too !

 

only DSP-1 works like that on snes.

 

the rom sits behind the coprocessor on those enhencement chip cart.

 

you can't use the chip or simulate another rom, for that you would need to simulate both on the fpga, and that requires some space on the fpga. (that's how SD2SNES does it)

 

 

About a Neo Geo Analogue system, I'd love to get jamma too !

An FPGA arcade system that could play classic arcade boards flawlessly would be my dream come true! Especially the old Capcom boards for SF2, Alien vs Predator, the D&D arcade game, etc!

[Nomenclature]

With all the speculation that everyone does regarding Analogue's future plans there is one actual quote from Chris Taber (founder):

 

"Meanwhile, Analogue isn’t limiting itself to Nintendo. Up next, Taber says, are plans for every forgotten console released in the years since: Sega Genesis, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast. There’s no timeline, but their focus and the interest it’s creating certainly makes a strong case for the conservation of gaming’s history."

(source: http://www.scmp.com/culture/arts-entertainment/article/2118165/retro-gaming-gets-21st-century-boost-analogue-consoles )

 

To be honest, I'm a little surprised to see Atari Jaguar and 3DO mentioned, but no TG-16 or Neo Geo.

 

What do you think of that list? What would be your ideal next console(s) for Analogue to tackle?

 

That's an old article with the writer likely adding that section himself. Affordable FPGA's that support 3do, saturn & especially dreamcast are years and years away. And there is no way they're making an Atari Jaguar FPGA, that system is garbage and it'd sell like 5. (queue a dozen people on here claiming they would definitely buy one!...ya right)

 

OH, so the LED is RGB? Retro meets the new trends.

 

If I can make the light red and dim I'm perfectly happy. That would be perfect. I think turning off the light completely is not a great idea, since you won't be able to tell at all wether the system is on or not.

 

I've never understood this argument. Is there video on the screen? Then the system is on... Every electronics product with an LED should have a way to turn it off imo.

 

 

May I guess?

 

I think there will be cores for the similar as the NTM got, BUT I dont think playing SNES games from SD-card will be a feature, at least for quite a while.

 

 

As great as that would be, I'm not getting my hopes up and I highly advise people to do the same to prevent any kind of dissapointment.

 

I am 100% buying this for the cores. If they aren't released (at the very least the SNES one), then my 100$ modded SNES Jr. into my OSSC is always gonna be the better option than a 240$ one that isn't original hardware. But I give the odds of the cores 99% so I'm not really worried.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Nomenclature

[SegaSnatcher]

Yep. The only question remains whether ROMs of "special" carts (Mega Man X2/X3 come to my mind, in terms of personal preferences) will be able to run on the Super NT. Will I need to acquire the actual cartridges for those games?

If rom support happens I'd expect more in line with Super Everdrive than SD2SNES. I mean you wonder how much room is left on that FPGA for special SNES chips. I'm sure DSP 1 - 4 and possibly CX4 will be supported, but nothing crazy like SA-1, or Super FX.

[cfillak]

I dont know if this has been talked about but this Analogue HDMI->analog adapter for the Super NT. This could be used on a Hi-DEF-NES aswell to get RGB? Or any 1080p digital source for that matter?, like playing retro-games on modern consoles on CRT:s..

It very likely won't be a 1080p to 240p downscaler. It would make more sense for there to just be a special output mode on the Super Nt that just outputs the raw digital 240p over the HDMI port, probably in the same form the digital video on an original SNES board would be sent to the SNES' DAC.

[RabidWookie]

 

They may not have been listed but the "every forgotten console released in the years since." would cover that. However, it makes me worried that they have no plans for pre-crash systems because it seems like it would have been worded as "every forgotten console released in the years since and before." or just "every forgotten console."

 

My ideal next console would be a no compromises perfect hardware replacement for the SEGA Genesis.

Same here, but only if it also had Sega CD/32X support.

[SegaSnatcher]

An FPGA arcade system that could play classic arcade boards flawlessly would be my dream come true! Especially the old Capcom boards for SF2, Alien vs Predator, the D&D arcade game, etc!

I just want someone to make an FPGA core for the Sega System 32 board so I can play Golden Axe Revenge of Death Adder with minimal lag. LOL

[leods]

 

I've never understood this argument. Is there video on the screen? Then the system is on... Every electronics product with an LED should have a way to turn it off imo.

 

I have TVS that don't turn on and off automatically with the inputs. I have other monitors that will give a specific port preference. So it I had the SNT plugged in and my PC, I turn on the PC, I have to mess with the monitor input to change it to the port of the NT to know wether the NT is on or off. With a dim LED I can immediately know.

 

But sure. If you want to turn it completelly off, and your setup will always show wether the system is on, that's great. I think the option to turn the LED off is valid. I just woudln't use it, for the reasons I mentioned.

 

TBH, I'd sincerely rather have a sliding button like the original SNES and Mega Drive used to had. It's the best of both worlds. You always know wether it's on or off, but there is no annoying LED on. Unless it's dark. Then you have to feel your way around, and know by heart what the switch position is supposed to be.

[leods]

I am 100% buying this for the cores. If they aren't released (at the very least the SNES one), then my 100$ modded SNES Jr. into my OSSC is always gonna be the better option than a 240$ one that isn't original hardware. But I give the odds of the cores 99% so I'm not really worried.

 

Actually, you might be surprised by the quality of a Digital output that was never really reconverted, and was internally upscaled. And the Super NT will give you a couple options the OSSC doesn't really give you. I'm not saying you can't prefer the SNES, but the image on the Super should be even cleaner. I mean, it's a natively processed HDMI signal, digitally created pixel per pixel. At least in theory it can't really get much better than that. It's the positive side of emulation and original hardware together.

 

Am I wrong about that part?

[cacophony]

If rom support happens I'd expect more in line with Super Everdrive than SD2SNES. I mean you wonder how much room is left on that FPGA for special SNES chips. I'm sure DSP 1 - 4 and possibly CX4 will be supported, but nothing crazy like SA-1, or Super FX.

 

I really hope Kevtris doesn't delay the release of rom support because of chips he still intends to simulate. Simply having the equivalent of Super Everdrive support would cover most of the good games.

[Nomenclature]

I don't think Kevtris could sleep at night if it didn't cover SA-1 and SuperFX, but I'm totally fine if the core doesn't support them. I already own the 5 games I want with those chips since the SD2SNES doesn't support them (2 Kirby, Starfox, Mario RPG & Yoshi's Island).

[Flojomojo]

With all the speculation that everyone does regarding Analogue's future plans there is one actual quote from Chris Taber (founder):

 

"Meanwhile, Analogue isn’t limiting itself to Nintendo. Up next, Taber says, are plans for every forgotten console released in the years since: Sega Genesis, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, Sega Saturn, Dreamcast. There’s no timeline, but their focus and the interest it’s creating certainly makes a strong case for the conservation of gaming’s history."

(source: http://www.scmp.com/culture/arts-entertainment/article/2118165/retro-gaming-gets-21st-century-boost-analogue-consoles )

 

To be honest, I'm a little surprised to see Atari Jaguar and 3DO mentioned, but no TG-16 or Neo Geo.

 

What do you think of that list? What would be your ideal next console(s) for Analogue to tackle?

 

I want to believe that particular quote is editorializing by the author, or maybe a way to suggest at the FPGA cores that could run on these devices. I have trouble believing Analogue has plans to make a physical 3DO replica when virtual hardware gets us to the same place.

 

I am 100% buying this for the cores. If they aren't released (at the very least the SNES one), then my 100$ modded SNES Jr. into my OSSC is always gonna be the better option than a 240$ one that isn't original hardware. But I give the odds of the cores 99% so I'm not really worried.

 

Yes, me too. May the cores be with you.

 

I'm gonna make this part big so people see it

 

Are we going to have a new thread for the Super Nt console when it is in our hands? This general FPGA thread is great, but it's also very busy. I would prefer to read Super Nt news separately.

[SegaSnatcher]

I don't think Kevtris could sleep at night if it didn't cover SA-1 and SuperFX, but I'm totally fine if the core doesn't support them. I already own the 5 games I want with those chips since the SD2SNES doesn't support them (2 Kirby, Starfox, Mario RPG & Yoshi's Island).

Your right, because developing those enhancement chips via FPGA would cause severe sleep deprevation with how complicated they would be develop. SD2SNES has been out since what 2013 and we still don't even have SA-1 support yet. I don't think its a lack of talent, but time, and Kevtris time seems to be extremely limited. I think he figures people will just buy the few Super FX and SA-1 games if they really want to play them. Probably not worth going through the hassle to put all that work in for some special enhancement chips when he could be using his time for better use elsewhere.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

They may not have been listed but the "every forgotten console released in the years since." would cover that. However, it makes me worried that they have no plans for pre-crash systems because it seems like it would have been worded as "every forgotten console released in the years since and before." or just "every forgotten console."

 

My ideal next console would be a no compromises perfect hardware replacement for the SEGA Genesis.

 

+1. add that since genesis/atari share a common db9 controller port, creating an adapter for 2600/vcs would be trivial. the 5 switches would be mounted on the cart adapter. remember the atari core cant run melody roms, so a cart interface is still necessary for these games...

[Loukey]

Your right, because developing those enhancement chips via FPGA would cause severe sleep deprevation with how complicated they would be develop. SD2SNES has been out since what 2013 and we still don't even have SA-1 support yet. I don't think its a lack of talent, but time, and Kevtris time seems to be extremely limited. I think he figures people will just buy the few Super FX and SA-1 games if they really want to play them. Probably not worth going through the hassle to put all that work in for some special enhancement chips when he could be using his time for better use elsewhere.

 

They would indeed be complicated, but Kevtris has proven to be uniquely talented at reverse engineering these consoles and programming FPGA. I’d imagine the only real limitation would be if the SNT’s FPGA doesn’t have enough logic cores. In that case I’m hoping he could partner with ikari to get them on the sd2snes. I guess another limitation could be his lack of time but Kevtris seems as interested in this hobby as any of the rest of us.

[Sho]

I wouldn't personally doubt Kevtris at all in reverse engineering anything at all for the Super NT. The better question is would have have time to do it?

[Kismet]

 

None of which is possible on original hardware.

 

So I ask you: Would you rather have 15ms, milliseconds, as in 15 thousandths of second, faster response time (or less depending on your setup) and half the resolution, fps, and anti-aliasing, or do you want that the other way around?

 

Don't get me wrong emulation isn't functional for every game or even every system but to say original hardware is best because in most cases the only difference is that it may run almost imperceptibly faster is honestly bullshit. Not to mention the cost of obtaining and modding a system as well as all the cables and hardware you need is insane compared to the cost of, at worst, maybe needing to upgrade the computer you already own for better results with your emulator.

 

Fpgas are the best of both worlds though, offering the same native resolution increases, digital outputs, and anti-aliasing/filters at native clock speeds and that is almost entirely because of Kevtris.

 

I don't know why you insist on talking about completely different things, missing the point of my posts and others posts and insist on arguing about things that have no bearing on the topic.

 

1) A FPGA console solves the largest problem with trying to replicate the original experience, it actually replicates the original experience, but lets you use new computer/tv screens, and even new controllers. It's not going to be for everyone, especially those who rage about not being able to play their illegal game collection on whatever flavor-of-the-day piece-of-crap software emulator-on-an-arm-device that people sell hoping to profit off idiots. If you are buying a FPGA console, you're literately asking "I want the exact same experience as the original hardware", which is what you want if you're doing an LP, or speed-running.

 

2) Software emulators solve a different problem, that being solving the transformative media hole. If I have a video game for my Wii, I can't play it on my Desktop PC by sticking the disc in the drive, no I have to go though a whole bunch of hell to acquire the right drive, or jailbroken firmware for the wii to rip the disc. Or I can just locate the game on the internet and save myself the trouble. That is what people do. Whatever is the easiest, is probably what people will do. So playing a Wii game on a PC is not easier than playing it on the Wii itself, but if the Wii is no longer available for sale, and you don't have a Wii U, then you're probably going to play it on the PC with whatever inaccurate emulator exists. All the game companies want to move to exclusive digital-downloads only because they can unlock parts of the game with digital downloads, and everyone has to buy them, because when the game or console is no longer published, those downloads can't be retrieved.

 

It doesn't matter if you can play a 240p game at 4K, most games do not look any better if they were not designed for that resolution, and that becomes readily apparent when you see 2D elements that end up with linear filtering on them, being blurred out of existence. If you are playing games on your 4K just because you can, that's all fine, I've even done that with a Wii emulator. But that's more of a "because I can", and if you stream/lp that, it's a redflag you're playing a pirated copy, and Nintendo will just copyright-strike it.

 

Which goes back to the point, and the comment I had pointed to, RetroArch is not a solution to "I want the same experience as the original hardware", it can not be, because it's software full of speed hacks, and the more complicated the console, the higher the processing requirements. It's absolutely stupid to invest $2000 in a desktop PC just to play games for a game console that cost $200. And no, armboard-flavor-of-the-day is not a solution. None of these RPi solutions are solutions to anything but "hey I can do something cool cheap". Nintendo may have unintentionally created a standardized armboard for these pirate solutions to use, but those chips aren't going to be around for years.

 

If you do not see the value in the Super NT, then don't buy it. But please don't pretend that people flogging $15 RPi's with RetroArch aren't scammers.

[Wolf_]

 

I don't know why you insist on talking about completely different things, missing the point of my posts and others posts and insist on arguing about things that have no bearing on the topic.

 

1) A FPGA console solves the largest problem with trying to replicate the original experience, it actually replicates the original experience, but lets you use new computer/tv screens, and even new controllers. It's not going to be for everyone, especially those who rage about not being able to play their illegal game collection on whatever flavor-of-the-day piece-of-crap software emulator-on-an-arm-device that people sell hoping to profit off idiots. If you are buying a FPGA console, you're literately asking "I want the exact same experience as the original hardware", which is what you want if you're doing an LP, or speed-running.

 

2) Software emulators solve a different problem, that being solving the transformative media hole. If I have a video game for my Wii, I can't play it on my Desktop PC by sticking the disc in the drive, no I have to go though a whole bunch of hell to acquire the right drive, or jailbroken firmware for the wii to rip the disc. Or I can just locate the game on the internet and save myself the trouble. That is what people do. Whatever is the easiest, is probably what people will do. So playing a Wii game on a PC is not easier than playing it on the Wii itself, but if the Wii is no longer available for sale, and you don't have a Wii U, then you're probably going to play it on the PC with whatever inaccurate emulator exists. All the game companies want to move to exclusive digital-downloads only because they can unlock parts of the game with digital downloads, and everyone has to buy them, because when the game or console is no longer published, those downloads can't be retrieved.

 

It doesn't matter if you can play a 240p game at 4K, most games do not look any better if they were not designed for that resolution, and that becomes readily apparent when you see 2D elements that end up with linear filtering on them, being blurred out of existence. If you are playing games on your 4K just because you can, that's all fine, I've even done that with a Wii emulator. But that's more of a "because I can", and if you stream/lp that, it's a redflag you're playing a pirated copy, and Nintendo will just copyright-strike it.

 

Which goes back to the point, and the comment I had pointed to, RetroArch is not a solution to "I want the same experience as the original hardware", it can not be, because it's software full of speed hacks, and the more complicated the console, the higher the processing requirements. It's absolutely stupid to invest $2000 in a desktop PC just to play games for a game console that cost $200. And no, armboard-flavor-of-the-day is not a solution. None of these RPi solutions are solutions to anything but "hey I can do something cool cheap". Nintendo may have unintentionally created a standardized armboard for these pirate solutions to use, but those chips aren't going to be around for years.

 

If you do not see the value in the Super NT, then don't buy it. But please don't pretend that people flogging $15 RPi's with RetroArch aren't scammers.

You're the one talking about completely different things. The posts are still there for everyone to read. Someone talked about how emulators were running at close to native input lag and you said they never would and that as a result all emulators were bad because they would always be almost imperceptibly slower. Now you're saying that fpgas offer the ideal experience (which I said and you quoted), and some completely different nonsense about how getting games to work on an emulator is too difficult for you (which was never a subject in this discussion before previously). So based on the messages easily available for everyone to check you're the one randomly replying to stuff not in the original conversation. Also spoilers: as long as you aren't distributing roms no one is going to kick down your door and search your house. But even if we pretend that happens and they find roms on your computer that you downloaded online because ripping them was too hard, as long as you have a copy of the game what are they going to do, say you illegally obtained a legal backup?

 

At least your "games don't look better in 4k" argument is relevant but totally incorrect. I provided breathtaking video of Shenmue in 4k and Breath of the Wild in 4k@60fps, even with shitty youtube compression if you set the video quality to 4k and watch them on a 4k60fps display you will be amazed. As for 240p 2d content while it might not get the amazing benefits 3d content has you can still do a lot with it, like avoiding the horrible snes slowdown many games suffer from that push the hardware's limits. Also there are so many types of filtering for the exact reason that different art styles will look differently when filters are applied. In the Ps1 video I provided the person uses several different filter types to demonstrate that exact situation...

 

And Nintendo copyright strikes perfectly legal content all the time, they are one of the worst companies when it comes to interacting with people, absolutely horrible and completely out of touch. They don't even want their own youtube ambassadors to livestream even though the ambassador program has specific livestream rules. And there is such a thing as capture cards for people that want to livestream without emulation...

 

Also once again, you clearly detest speed hacks but you never answered my question, if speed hacks don't cause any glitches in the game you are playing and optimize your performance to be at the same amount of input lag most people have trying to play retro games anyways then what is wrong with them? "Oh no I'm getting more performance but not in the same way as the original hardware and it isn't causing any problems ahhhhh"

 

And I never mentioned anything about pis, just that emulation is in many cases far superior to original hardware.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Wolf_

[cacophony]

Nice shot of the black and transparent controllers: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DU5aLPHU8AA4hLy?format=jpg&name=large

[NE146]

Wow it totally flew over my head that the controllers would be colored identically as the consoles.. I'm not sure I'd be a huge fan of the all-black or all-transparent gamepads. But maybe seeing them IRL would be a different story.