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kevtris

FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

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  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
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  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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The Super Nt scanlines look perfectly even for me. Using 5x, 1080p. Something must be off on your settings.

Here is a sample, which by the way, I can't see your images. It says I don't have permission for some reason.

 

1080p/60fps, 5x, no interpolation, scanlines:200, no gamma boost:

 

SuperNt-SF2-vgo-01.jpg

 

And just for comparison's sake, here is Street Fighter 2 Turbo on my Sony Wega CRT

SNES-SF2-CRT-01-vgo.jpg

 

No disrespect, but nothing is off with my settings. It's a known issue which Kevtris has actually agreed on in this thread before. And yes, the scanlines in your top image are the same as on my Super NT.

Edited by richisawesome

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And I'm saying people get the wrong idea about what scanlines do.

 

This is MY CRT:

10dgith.jpg

 

This is MY 4K without scanlines:

esk9k5.jpg

 

This is the same 4K with Hybrid scanlines:

2agq5xi.jpg

 

This is the same 4K with Normal scanlines:

2jfde7p.jpg

 

Subjectively, it looks better without scanlines.

 

The crt looks more like rectangles or squares to me then lines. Maybe put a option for rectangles or square also.

Is there any reason why you guys are using 1080p. MLIG already said you get the best results with 720p with scan lines with full picture since it scales better with 240p.

I hope for a cheat menu option in the future. SOmetimes I like playing around

Edited by D3ltax55
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The crt looks more like sqares to me then lines like the super or any other device does. Maybe put a option for squares instead of lines.

Is there any reason why you guys are using 1080p. MLIG already said you get the best results with 720p with scan lines with full picture since it scales better with 240p.

 

Because x5 mode only requires a cut-off of 20px from the top and bottom of the image (which is less than standard CRT overscan) to display a 1:1 correctly scaled image in 1080p. Which is clearer than 720p and looks better on my display.

 

MLIG, believe it or not, aren't the all-knowing-gods of retro tech and displays.

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I'll start this post with what to me is the big ellefant in the room. Why does analog advertise these 8bitdo pads as lag free when they add about a frame of lag?

 

Tl;Dr: 8bit do controllers are NOT perfect replicas of the originals. Its easier to get diagonals on them, wanted or unwanted, and they feel different to play on. They are still overall good precise controllers that work as intended. (with a frame of lag)

 

 

Leods if you are into NES, have you ever tried Retrousb's NES wireless gamepad? A lot of people dislike the clickyness due to the mechanical switches... but I love it. It must be the fastest wireless controller I've ever had. You also don't have to deal with pairing the damn thing every-time.

 

Really makes me wish he would make a SNES version.

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Got a HiDef NES question.

Since the Q1 should be removed and just bridged, are there a composite amp in the interposer?

yes it has a composite amp on it. this is because loading on the video pin is critical, and even the 1-2 inch route on the pcb is too much, and it will pick noise up and cause issues. So I have a built in composite amp to compensate.

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Holy shit. I need to apologise to a few people here as I've just realised the scanlines look much better if I turn interpolation on. They're shifted up a few pixels with interpolation turned off, which is bizarre and results in the issues present in my image above. But eh, it's significantly better now anyway. Sorry all.

 

Scanline strength/size would be ideal as a slider in the future though. That and the colours being fixed would mean I can happily keep my SFC as a CRT only device, and use the SNT exclusively on my HDTV. Absolutely love the console aside from the 0-255 colour issue.

Edited by richisawesome
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NTSC Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past cart works fine here on 4.1 non-JB firmware.

 

I can replicate the crash on the SD2SNES however. Once.

 

Edit: Got it on video.

 

Here (This is on the SNT)

 

https://mega.nz/#!x2QghQaA!Fy2Eymnr4QgFfmbS_fMQxsiruNMe3xCeVf2ebGhUtDU

 

Steps to replicate:

1. Erase any save games

2. Reset

3. Create new game in slot 1

4. When you leave the house, hold up before the transition starts

5. SNT SNES core will crash

 

The SNT can still be told to run the cartridge again. The only times I've been able to replicate this is from the SD2SNES when there was no previous save game, and I suspect it might involve slot 1, as when I tried it on my real cart, I used slot 3 and could not replicate it. I'll move the save game around on the real cart and erase the first slot and see if that does it, but I have a feeling it might actually be the empty save that is responsible for it.

 

Edit: I tried three more times with the real cart on the SuperNT and I can not replicate it.

PCB I have is SHVC-1A3B-13 with

SNS-ZL-0

LH53820B

9223 E

if anyone else wants to compare PCB versions to see if there is another version of the cart.

I'll note the shell label has SNS-ZL-CAN on it. But Canadian versions of most software simply came with Bilingual manuals.

 

Can't make any more edits to this post, but I went and tried to replicate it on the SD2SNES on the real GPM-02 SNES and I was not able to. So this appears to be a problem specific to the version of Legend of Zelda in the SM pack on the Super NT that doesn't surface on a real SNES. With the real cart it doesn't happen.

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No disrespect, but nothing is off with my settings. It's a known issue which Kevtris has actually agreed on in this thread before. And yes, the scanlines in your top image are the same as on my Super NT.

I guess I don't understand the issue here.

 

The image you posted shows scanlines which are definitely not symmetrical along the horizontal axis. Is that not the problem you are speaking of?

Screenshot_2018-02-18-08-28-44.png

 

 

Where as the one I posted has the same exact sized scanlines. Or at least that how it looks to me.

The only time the scanlines show up as being different sizes is when I didn't have the correct settings.

 

I am currently using:

1080p/60fps

5x (only shaves off a bit of the top and bottom, which are rarely used for anything in most games that I've tested).

No Gamma Boost

No Interpolation (though this doesn't affect the sizes of the scanlines. Just the softness of the pixel edges)

 

Here are a few more sample screens with these settings. (They were taken with an IPod Touch camera from my 24" HD display). Please tell me if you think the scanlines look messed up.

 

(click for full sized - 2000x1500px images)

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-04.jpg

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-05.jpg

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-06.jpg

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-10.jpg

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-15.jpg

 

SuperNt-ContraIII-17.jpg

Edited by spoonman
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Because x5 mode only requires a cut-off of 20px from the top and bottom of the image (which is less than standard CRT overscan) to display a 1:1 correctly scaled image in 1080p. Which is clearer than 720p and looks better on my display.

 

MLIG, believe it or not, aren't the all-knowing-gods of retro tech and displays.

So what exactly are the settings you use? Just curious as I want to give them a try myself.

Edited by Jakir

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And I'm saying people get the wrong idea about what scanlines do.

 

This is MY CRT:

10dgith.jpg

 

This is MY 4K without scanlines:

esk9k5.jpg

 

This is the same 4K with Hybrid scanlines:

2agq5xi.jpg

 

This is the same 4K with Normal scanlines:

2jfde7p.jpg

 

Subjectively, it looks better without scanlines.

 

Are you running on a 100hz CRT ?

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Part 2 of my Analogue Mini Review is uploading. It's all about the jailbreak where I discuss the origins of this mysterious firmware, demonstrate the SAV bug, and scanlines not showing up when loading ROMs. Still a lot to love about this added little feature...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZ2d0yWKcg

 

Sorry but it's late and my DSL uplink is slow as molasses. Currently at 65% but it's taken hours to get this far and I'm not waiting around for the video to finish uploading...

Video is live now in case people missed it. Youtube compression did ubfuscate the scanlines a bit, which is expected for 720p camera footage.

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So I decided to bite the bullet and grab me a super nt,

Now the waiting game begins for when the SFC edition will be back in stock.

 

How good are analogue for adding stock to their website?

Should I expect these to be available for pre-order soon or could it take quite a while?

 

I am asking cause I could always buy the black one but really want the SFC as I find it nicer than all other models.

Edited by lekrang

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So I decided to bite the bullet and grab me a super nt,

Now the waiting game begins for when the SFC edition will be back in stock.

 

How good are analogue for adding stock to their website?

Should I expect these to be available for pre-order soon or could it take quite a while?

 

I am asking cause I could always buy the black one but really want the SFC as I find it nicer than all other models.

You may be waiting a long time if the black/clear editions sell out. I have the purple gray one and I love it. I would definitely buy a black Sega version though.

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I realize that SNES natively outputs a 8:7 aspect ratio, but a CRT would take that and stretch it a bit, so why are people using the 8:7 aspect ratio when its not what we actually saw back in the 90's?

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Since I didn't want any wireless controllers (I prefer wired) and because I bought a black Super NT console, I bought myself a couple of black Yobo FC Twin controllers. I hope they'll work correctly with my Super NT... :)

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Holy shit. I need to apologise to a few people here as I've just realised the scanlines look much better if I turn interpolation on. They're shifted up a few pixels with interpolation turned off, which is bizarre and results in the issues present in my image above. But eh, it's significantly better now anyway. Sorry all.

 

Scanline strength/size would be ideal as a slider in the future though. That and the colours being fixed would mean I can happily keep my SFC as a CRT only device, and use the SNT exclusively on my HDTV. Absolutely love the console aside from the 0-255 colour issue.

Welp, soon that will hopefully no longer be an issue now that Kevtris is working on a solution.

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I realize that SNES natively outputs a 8:7 aspect ratio, but a CRT would take that and stretch it a bit, so why are people using the 8:7 aspect ratio when its not what we actually saw back in the 90's?

 

 

 

What we saw back in the 90s was largely just random. The viewing area of your TV was 4:3, but that didn't necessarily mean that it was accurately stretched to 4:3. You'd have a hard time accurately replicating what your specific TV did right and wrong.

 

Meanwhile, many games have objects that are clearly meant to be squares, circles, or other shapes where it's easy to tell when you're displaying it in a different aspect ratio than it was created. Often it turns out that 8:7 shows squares as squares, while 4:3 shows squares as rectangles. This isn't *always* the case, and one option is to change what you're using depending on how the game looks, but a lot of us feel that 8:7 is usually the right choice for getting graphics that don't have a bunch of ovals and rectangles that clearly should be circles and squares.

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As an aside, I think it's absurd that screens exist in this day and age that only support limited range. Even OG Super Nintendo was full range, many classic consoles were, and decades later, we have digital screens that can't display that full range. Ridiculous.

 

Not really. It would cost several cents extra to extend the pixel DACS to full range. Or save a couple of cents if they go with the lower quality and limited range DACS. If a company sells millions of panels, they'll be pocketing several hundred thousand dollars of savings. And as long as the consumer doesn't complain.. why waste the money?

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What we saw back in the 90s was largely just random. The viewing area of your TV was 4:3, but that didn't necessarily mean that it was accurately stretched to 4:3. You'd have a hard time accurately replicating what your specific TV did right and wrong.

 

Meanwhile, many games have objects that are clearly meant to be squares, circles, or other shapes where it's easy to tell when you're displaying it in a different aspect ratio than it was created. Often it turns out that 8:7 shows squares as squares, while 4:3 shows squares as rectangles. This isn't *always* the case, and one option is to change what you're using depending on how the game looks, but a lot of us feel that 8:7 is usually the right choice for getting graphics that don't have a bunch of ovals and rectangles that clearly should be circles and squares.

So did developers calibrate their CRT monitors to display 8:7 without stretching when designing their games?

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So what exactly are the settings you use? Just curious as I want to give them a try myself.

 

Same as what the OSSC does in x5 1080p mode - it gives you a true integer scale on a 1080p display - I actually came to the same conclusion as Firebrandx on the shmups forum:

 

 

FYI the Super Nt actually labels the correct signal padding formula of 256 * 8/7 for CRT aspect correction. Both the NES and SNES use this same formula for horizontal aspect correction. So for example if you wanted a perfect aspect-corrected 4x scale image: 256 * 4 = 1024, 1024 * 8/7 = 1170. Then you just straight-scale the vertical to 960 (technically 896, but the Super Nt includes overscan).

 

The same method applies to 5x scale: 256 * 5 = 1280, 1280 * 8/7 = 1462 (rounded down to an even number). And the vertical at 5x is 1200. Thus, aspect corrected 5x scale is 1462x1200. When you set the Super Nt to either 1170x960 or 1462x1200, it labels both as "4:3 aspect correction for 16:9 displays".

 

1080p Settings

This results in a pixel-perfect scale to 1080p, albeit with the top and bottom cut off by 20 pixels each. Which really isn't noticeable, especially when it's smaller than the CRT safe-zone games were designed around:

 

x5 scaled 1:1 (20px cut at bottom and top)

 

It results in an identical image to what the OSSC produces in x5 mode.

 

If you want to play games in native 1080p as an integer scale, this is the only way to do it. And really, it's a fair trade-off.

Edited by richisawesome
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Probably zero. For those it’s more of a concern about good/proper engineering practices but for the multicarts that just pump 5v into a 3v chip without even using a resistor for VCC, it’s an eye-opener. Thankfully, Kevtris has openly stated that the Super Nt is fine with these 3.3v devices. *whew*

 

I recall a video where Kevtris and Jason (GameTechUS) were looking into why the Turbo ED didn’t work with Jason’s PCE/TG16 region mod and Kevin noticed the improper voltage levels. He did not have nice words for Krikzz! I’m pretty sure that’s why he hinted at disgust at the Super Everdrive in the RetroRGB interview regarding Super Nt as well.

 

INL sells the blank PCBs and the programmer on his site (Kazzo NES/FC dumper updates for NES/SNES burning) and you can get clear shells too. RetroStage and many others offer these parts but I know INL sells an affordable programmer. INL’s programmer is cheap enough that you probably won’t feel like you need the Super Nt or Nt Mini to flash it (IIRC, $30). Kevtris had a lot of negative things to say about the cat hairs he and Jason found in their INL order of cartridge shells but I don’t recall any engineering criticisms.

 

People claim an Everdrive has never fried a system, but that is untrue because one fried the PPU on my NES. I bought one for a friend and was setting it up and it destroyed it immediately. I won't put another one of those things (at least the NES one) in my systems.

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So did developers calibrate their CRT monitors to display 8:7 without stretching when designing their games?

 

No idea. It's just one of those things that happens with old tech. NTSC means unreliable colors, different from set to set. CRT means aspect ratio was really up to the screen owner. The best we can do is either decide what we personally consider to be accurate. I'm very much in the 8:7 camp, but there's certainly good justification for 4:3 as well. But it's definitely just one of those issues where there can't really be a "right" answer. Especially since different games seem to suggest some developers corrected for it, and some didn't.

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People claim an Everdrive has never fried a system, but that is untrue because one fried the PPU on my NES. I bought one for a friend and was setting it up and it destroyed it immediately. I won't put another one of those things (at least the NES one) in my systems.

 

...but the Everdrive N8/Famicom runs on 3.3v correctly translated to 5v and was one of the devices verified by dbelectronics as being perfectly safe:

 

https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/#Everdrive_N8

 

Everdrive N8

Verdict = Good

Added by popular demand. The Everdrive N8, by all looks and appearances, seems to be properly interfaced to the NES 5V bus. There are sufficient level converters to handle all signals. I do see a 100 resistors network but I will give the benefit of the doubt and say that those are used for the audio input to the console. Good job!

 

 

You sure you weren't using a cheap chinese clone, many of which look just like the real thing on the outside? If it came from anywhere other than Krikzz's store direct/retrogate, retrotowers or stoneagegamer then it's a fake. Guaranteed dodgy if its from Ebay or Aliexpress. There's no chance a legit Everdrive N8 would have broken your NES.

Edited by richisawesome
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...but the Everdrive N8/Famicom runs on 3.3v correctly translated to 5v and was one of the devices verified by dbelectronics as being perfectly safe:

 

https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/#Everdrive_N8

 

 

You sure you weren't using a cheap chinese clone, many of which look just like the real thing on the outside? If it came from anywhere other than Krikzz's store direct/retrogate, retrotowers or stoneagegamer then it's a fake. Guaranteed dodgy if its from Ebay or Aliexpress. There's no chance a legit Everdrive N8 would have broken your NES.

 

Yes, it was legit, I purchased it from SAG. They don't know what caused it and paid for a replacement as well as the fee to have my NES shipped out to my modder to fix, so at least they took care of me. That said, I don't trust them. I ended up setting it up for my buddy using my Mini, but that'll be the last time I touch one.

 

Edit: for what it's worth, I was just looking back at my emails with them and whatever happened fried the Everdrive as well. So I guess I got a bad unit, but frying my childhood top loader that I just had RGB modded was too traumatic to bother trying again :woozy:

Edited by jamon1567

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Holy shit. I need to apologise to a few people here as I've just realised the scanlines look much better if I turn interpolation on. They're shifted up a few pixels with interpolation turned off, which is bizarre and results in the issues present in my image above. But eh, it's significantly better now anyway. Sorry all.

 

Scanline strength/size would be ideal as a slider in the future though. That and the colours being fixed would mean I can happily keep my SFC as a CRT only device, and use the SNT exclusively on my HDTV. Absolutely love the console aside from the 0-255 colour issue.

 

Is your display 1080p or 4k? If it's 1080p and you're running the Super Nt at 1080p60 5x vertical, requiring interpolation to get even scanlines is a sure sign you don't have 1:1 pixel mapping enabled on your display.

 

It would be much easier to help people with display issues if everyone noted what display they were using and what settings.

 

The core settings that 1080p display owners should be using if they want clean scanlines are:

 

Resolution: 1080p

Height: 5x (1200)

Scaler: No scaler, vertical interpolation disabled

Scanlines: Normal or hybrid (whichever you prefer, depth to taste)

 

AND: Display set to 1:1 pixel mapping (zero overscan), which as others have said varies depending on your display manufacturer (1:1, Just, Full, etc.)

 

Horizontal dimensions can be whatever you prefer, with horizontal interpolation disabled if it's an integer multiplier (5x or 6x) because it's not necessary. Tweak vertical position also if you like; I adjusted mine to 45 because it clips a bit more on the bottom than the top and lines up the scanlines so that they fall right at the top and bottom of my display.

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