FPGA Based Videogame System

[bozo55]

So, this means that - and please correct me if i am wrong, as there are probably a myriad of things i am simplifying away:

 

a) the SNES is always run at original clock speed in non-zero delay modes

b) Even In zero delay mode the SNES is still running at original clock, but is stopped for a number of cycles after each scanline in order for the hdmi readout of that line to catch up.

 

but does that not lead to problems if for example a sound sample is playing and ending right before the clock is stopped, couldnt this (very small) delay lead to discontinuities (clicks, popps)?

 

Does this have something to do with the "Earthworm Jim (PAL)" audio problems in zero-delay mode?

 

I am an advocate for a special 60.09 mode - and I believe (from my own testing) that your worries about hitting that 148.5 Mhz exactly are maybe a little to strict. And even with a 148.5 Mhz Master HDMI Clock there are ways to get to that 60.09 (or even to the the exact frequency). Just some ideas, you probably already thought about:

 

1) Use an integer multiplier of 7 * 21,47 =~150,29 HDMI Clock - I beleive that 90%+ of TVs would handle that.

2) Keep the 148.5Mhz HDMI clock, but shorten each frame by two or three lines of vsync (in the frame sent over hdmi, not in the snes) and/or adjust hsync a little. With a little linear programming one should be able to find a combination that hits 60.09 and is still TV compatible

3) Do not use cycle stealing, but just change the 21,47 clock to run at 148,5 / 7 = ~21,214.(If all fails and we must live with 60.00Hz - at least this would prevent cycle stealing)

4) use any of the tricks above in combination to get closer to 60,09, in order to reduce cylce stealing (if it cannot be avoided altogether)

 

In all cases such options should come with a disclaimer and a hot-key on boot-up to restore "normal" hdmi behavior. I find the Super NT such a great system almost living up to all the claims made by analogue, but without a tearing and frame drop free hdmi mode at original speed it is not really 100%. But i am pretty optimistic that a way will be found and implemented via firmware update, if not now maybe after the dust has settled a bit.

 

Apart from that I found the following incompabilities:

 

- JP Samurai Spirits crashes after the initial Logo, sometimes the cherry-blossom animation runs for half a second before the screen blanks.

- JP Accele Brid crashes during gameplay - music continues playing but game freezes.

- JP Bakukyuu Renpatsu!! Super B-Damon lets you only use hotkeys during fades to black. As these become very seldom in game, hot-keys cease to work for long periods of time

- JP Zootoo Mahjong (my favourite Mahjong) no hot-keys at all

- Pac-Man (A&S NES Hack) graphics corruption

 

 

Have a cart of Samurai Spirits... Will look into it on my Super NT and get back to you.

Edited February 19, 2018 by bozo55

[trismegistus]

Last night on my Super NT and sd2snes, I was playing the latest GoodSNES Monopoly v1.1 ROM for about 5 minutes, with 4 players. When one of the players picked up a chance card, the game froze and would not respond to any input. The Super NT menu was accessible by pressing down and select.

There is an issue for this on the jailbreak firmware github. You might want to add any relevant information there that isn't there already, such as the fact that you were able to reproduce it loading through sd2snes and which firmware version you were running.

[Keatah]

I think as the gaming population (the NES & SNES crowd) ages, they'll chase after high priced items on ebay and online trading only. They're not going to fart around hopping from Goodwill to Goodwill to fleamarket to craigslist parking lot trades.. The convenience factor is too strong. It saves an extraordinary amount of time and is a much fruitful experience.

 

Also, as the supply of cartridges and consoles becomes less through failure, damage, attrition, fire/flood and other modes of destruction, the common man will switch to jailbreak and emulation. And the common man will actually have real genuine fun with the stuff. And the remaining material will reach stratospheric costs. Only the rich will collect - till they get old and tired of the stuff. And those collectors will experience a lot of frustration.

 

Lots of dynamics at work here. But jailbreak and emulation continue to be the way forward.

[SegaSnatcher]

Just been thinking about future Analogue products. I really wish they made something similar to the Polymega, but have it FPGA based instead of software emulation. Maybe the initial cost for the base unit is $200 and each module would cost $100 - $150. I mean I really like the idea of an interchangable console. I doubt Analogue would ever go that route, but it would be pretty awesome.

Edited February 19, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Jagasian]

There is an issue for this on the jailbreak firmware github. You might want to add any relevant information there that isn't there already, such as the fact that you were able to reproduce it loading through sd2snes and which firmware version you were running.

I have added all the info I have for reproducing the issue. Chance and Community Chest cards both lock it up.

[cacophony]

Just been thinking about future Analogue products. I really wish they made something similar to the Polymega, but have it FPGA based instead of software emulation. Maybe the initial cost for the base unit is $200 and each module would cost $100 - $150. I mean I really like the idea of an interchangable console. I doubt Analogue would ever go that route, but it would be pretty awesome.

 

I find it interesting to think about the long term Analogue product roadmap, partly because I really have no idea what they're going to do after the obvious remaining 16-bit systems (Genesis, TG-16, Neo Geo). Even Neo Geo seems a little questionable given the price of the carts and the fact that they seem to be going for a larger market now.

 

They could come out with multi-systems with multiple cart slots:

- SNES + Genesis + TG-16

- Atari 2600 + 5200 + 7800

- Classic computers

???

 

I personally prefer a system to be a single self contained unit because multiple components often feel clunky, are less attractive IMO, less portable, and have more points of potential failure.

Edited February 19, 2018 by cacophony

[bozo55]

Just been thinking about future Analogue products. I really wish they made something similar to the Polymega, but have it FPGA based instead of software emulation. Maybe the initial cost for the base unit is $200 and each module would cost $100 - $150. I mean I really like the idea of an interchangable console. I doubt Analogue would ever go that route, but it would be pretty awesome.

 

 

I think that the Analogue Sega Genesis should be an adapter that plugs into the Super NT's Cartridge Slot. Using the FPGA from both units there could be enough power for SegaCD and 32X and cost no more than the Super NT.

[Riptide]

 

I find it interesting to think about the long term Analogue product roadmap, partly because I really have no idea what they're going to do after the obvious remaining 16-bit systems (Genesis, TG-16, Neo Geo). Even Neo Geo seems a little questionable given the price of the carts and the fact that they seem to be going for a larger market now.

 

They could come out with multi-systems with multiple cart slots:

- SNES + Genesis + TG-16

- Atari 2600 + 5200 + 7800

- Classic computers

???

 

I personally prefer a system to be a single self contained unit because multiple components often feel clunky, are less attractive IMO, less portable, and have more points of potential failure.

Realistically Neo Geo would probably need a few licensed built in games, but its also one of the systems where they're more likely to pull that off.

[Sbeehive]

Realistically Neo Geo would probably need a few licensed built in games, but its also one of the systems where they're more likely to pull that off.

 

Given the success of Neo-Geo on the Switch now I think people would go for this.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

 

I think that the Analogue Sega Genesis should be an adapter that plugs into the Super NT's Cartridge Slot. Using the FPGA from both units there could be enough power for SegaCD and 32X and cost no more than the Super NT.

I want to play Genesis games with a Genesis controller.

[scott64]

Just been thinking about future Analogue products. I really wish they made something similar to the Polymega, but have it FPGA based instead of software emulation. Maybe the initial cost for the base unit is $200 and each module would cost $100 - $150. I mean I really like the idea of an interchangable console. I doubt Analogue would ever go that route, but it would be pretty awesome.

 

I was following polymega very closely until the Super NT was announced and I lost interest. I still might pickup a polymega if they ever end up releasing the thing. The 'module' approach is really the only way to keep a console clean looking and support different controllers and cart adapters. I'd really like to see Analogue do a designated combo console, and not just a core store added to a single purpose unit. Something like a retron 5 but high quality.

[bozo55]

Just cleaned and tested my copy of Samurai Spirits and it is working perfectly. Videodr0me, are you using SD2SNES or a real cart?

 

P.S. I'm on standard 4.1 firmware.

Edited February 19, 2018 by bozo55

[bozo55]

I want to play Genesis games with a Genesis controller.

perhaps a SNES to DB9 Adapter could be provided? Or built in controller plugs on the adapter... cart slot too wobbly for that I suppose.

[Great Hierophant]

Last night on my Super NT and sd2snes, I was playing the latest GoodSNES Monopoly v1.1 ROM for about 5 minutes, with 4 players. When one of the players picked up a chance card, the game froze and would not respond to any input. The Super NT menu was accessible by pressing down and select.

I can confirm this, it crashes regardless of using sd2snes or JB, v1.0 or v1.1, all you need is one human player to land on Chance or Community Chest. The animation will continue to work.

 

 

Samurai Showdown I did not try. Samurai Spirits crashes on all JP versions I could find even on an sd2nes, but will try to locate a real cart. Accele Brid does crash often but not always, could you retry a couple of times on your sd2nes (we only tried it once on the sd2nes and it crashed but much later). Pac-Man is ok then, good that you checked.

Of course, once I tried Samurai Spirits, the game failed to get past the Takara screen. Then Samurai Shodown did the same thing. However, after pressing reset a couple of times, both the US and Japanese game could get past the Takara logo. I think it is totally random whether you can get past it or not.

 

I could not get Accele Brid to crash with my sd2snes and I managed to get to the 2nd level.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Great Hierophant

[KRiSX]

Just been thinking about future Analogue products. I really wish they made something similar to the Polymega, but have it FPGA based instead of software emulation. Maybe the initial cost for the base unit is $200 and each module would cost $100 - $150. I mean I really like the idea of an interchangable console. I doubt Analogue would ever go that route, but it would be pretty awesome.

 

lol... i wish the polymega people would release the polymega... let alone someone else doing it

 

 

so close to grabbing one of these but i know i don't really need it given i have real hardware and an xrgb already... not to mention that shipping price to Australia is BS... anyone wanna split shipping? haha

[Beer Monkey]

Did Polymega ever give a detailed explanation as to what their 'hybrid emulation' is? Smelled like BS to me.

[KRiSX]

Did Polymega ever give a detailed explanation as to what their 'hybrid emulation' is? Smelled like BS to me.

 

I don't believe so... to me it sounds like emulation using real media... the demos the showed was dumping discs to internal storage and running it from there so it kinda makes sense to think its this way... this probably isn't the place for this talk anyway

[Beer Monkey]

Nope. The club Nintendo controller is much more like the original. The rubber pads were even the same color and design. The R and L button are also like the old controllers in that they use a metal pin too hold it on. The new classic controllers used a board with holes in different spots, different rubber for the buttons that isn't directly swappable and the R and L buttons are a single piece of plastic held in by the shape of the plastic rather than a metal pin. They are probably cheaper to make but it is disappointing considering they had already designed and produced that club Nintendo controller.

 

That's too bad. I dropped a real SNES board into a Club Nintendo controller and now I have what is basically a brand new SFC controller with a long cord to boot.

 

That's what I play my Super NT with.

 

[RabidWookie]

I have an SD2SNES but I still like to pick up the real cartridges for the games I have a stronger memory or connection with. When I got my Super Nt I decided to take a look at some of those games since it had been awhile and Lufia and Lufia II along with an English copy of terranigma are ridiculously expensive. I thought I had the really expensive games covered with Chrono Trigger and Earthbound but nope not even close.

The best and most complete version of Chrono Trigger is the DS version that can be had for under $30 still, I think the SNES version would cost a lot more if the DS version didn't exist.

[bozo55]

I can confirm this, it crashes regardless of using sd2snes or JB, v1.0 or v1.1, all you need is one human player to land on Chance or Community Chest. The animation will continue to work.

 

 

 

Of course, once I tried Samurai Spirits, the game failed to get past the Takara screen. Then Samurai Shodown did the same thing. However, after pressing reset a couple of times, both the US and Japanese game could get past the Takara logo. I think it is totally random whether you can get past it or not.

 

I could not get Accele Brid to crash with my sd2snes and I managed to get to the 2nd level.

 

Hmm. Do you have a real SNES to test with as well? I think this is more a SD2SNES issue than a Super NT issue, since I have tested it with the real cart and it works as it should.

[Keatah]

I think that the Analogue Sega Genesis should be an adapter that plugs into the Super NT's Cartridge Slot. Using the FPGA from both units there could be enough power for SegaCD and 32X and cost no more than the Super NT.

Don't think the Super NT has the bandwidth or infrastructure to handle pass-through video generated by the 32X and then overlay it on the base console's video. Let alone do any scaling or HDMI conversion. Not enough LE. And not wired that way.

 

This is a general issue with FPGA rigs. They're versatile. But, limited in power via how many LE they have. Consumers are unwilling to pay for mondo-sized chips. And manufacturers are unwilling to produce something with a lot of excess headroom. Going to the next size up in chips usually means a new PCB design to accommodate the bigger chip. And the bigger chip is going to have a different layout internally. So at the minimum, the stream will need to be recompiled.

 

All the above means we're left with incrementally climbing the ladder in order to control costs. That way profits can be maximized. And consumers still get something interesting. Always a balance.

[Shadowgate]

 

What was their problem? I've been a retro-collector for a few years now and I've had mixed experience than I anticipated I would have.

 

At first, talking about the games themselves (play perspective), its been great. A lot of nostalgic talk... good times.

 

I then got into a discussion (on Reddit) about retro-gaming on a modern TV and not a monitor. That was a huge mistake. I wouldn't have guessed that subject was taboo. I got so downvoted for even asking about it.

 

I then read your comment. It's interesting to see a collection of mindsets about this subject.

It depends on the subreddit. Some communities have been largely isolated. You hang around like minded individuals long enough and you all start feeding off each other's anger. So when they see someone come in with new ideas they circle the wagon to protect their passion. Neogeo and Tg16 seem to be the worst offenders. Plus all the renewed interest has made their hobby expensive. It went from a basement dweller hobby into the boutique feel of the Nt Mini. Change is scary and humans tend to fear and hate it. All the rich people are ruining their hobby is basically the vibe I get.

 

It's a shame. The good news is that mentality is becoming the minority. People want to experience those games for the first time. I'm all for introducing new ways to do it. So much would be lost if not for the efforts of people like Kevtris. So many new players are getting to enjoy the games we grew up playing. It's surreal

Edited February 20, 2018 by Shadowgate

[Keatah]

Did Polymega ever give a detailed explanation as to what their 'hybrid emulation' is? Smelled like BS to me.

I don't believe so... to me it sounds like emulation using real media... the demos the showed was dumping discs to internal storage and running it from there so it kinda makes sense to think its this way... this probably isn't the place for this talk anyway

 

Hybrid emulation can mean lots of things.

 

Software emulation reading a cartridge realtime.

Software emulation dunping a cartridge then emulating it.

Combination software emulation on ARM + FPGA.

Mixed media and several different formats of memory involved in the "experience".

 

Essentially it means what you want it to mean.

[cfillak]

 

I find it interesting to think about the long term Analogue product roadmap, partly because I really have no idea what they're going to do after the obvious remaining 16-bit systems (Genesis, TG-16, Neo Geo). Even Neo Geo seems a little questionable given the price of the carts and the fact that they seem to be going for a larger market now.

 

They could come out with multi-systems with multiple cart slots:

- SNES + Genesis + TG-16

- Atari 2600 + 5200 + 7800

- Classic computers

???

 

I personally prefer a system to be a single self contained unit because multiple components often feel clunky, are less attractive IMO, less portable, and have more points of potential failure.

I don't know about the viability of combo FPGA systems, until whatever mechanism that flashes a new core onto the FPGA gets faster, or the FPGAs get big/cheap enough where you could have 2 or more cores loaded simultaneously. That being said, here's my roadmap predictions/hopes and dreams in (sort of) chronological order:

 

- Analogue MD : Genesis/Mega Drive clone with an expansion slot to plug into a real Sega CD unit and is compatible with 32X via analog video out only

- Analogue GB : Portable FPGA system with a gameboy cart slot, marketed as a Gameboy/Gameboy Color clone (Hopefully with core store support for other portable consoles)

- Analogue TG : TurboGrafx-16/PC-Engine/SuperGrafx clone, has a HuCard/TurboChip slot, no expansion slot which people get very mad at, but CD image loading is added via "secret" jailbreak firmware.

- Analogue NG : Neo Geo AES/MVS clone that plays Neo Geo carts/roms, gets Neo Geo CD image loading in jailbreak firmware

 

A few year gap

 

- Analogue PS : Kevin has mentioned that PS1 may be doable on current FPGA tech which is very exciting, but I am not sure how elegantly an optical drive solution would work as well as the issue of the BIOS. Sony seems pretty litigious so while I'd rather not have an optical drive, I think they'll have to provide some "legitimate" use for their system, even if CD image loading comes in a jailbreak.

 

Another gap

 

- Analogue releases 4K compatible versions of all of their previously released consoles, either retiring the old models or still selling them at a reduced cost.

 

- Maybe tech has gotten to a point where Sega CD and/or 32X seem doable, and they take a crack at an ultimate Sega Genesis/CD/32X all-in-one (advertised as playing 32X carts through the slot, but loads CD images via jailbreak)

 

- Maybe N64 is possible now

[pashdown]

"Expansions Not Supported"

 

I presume this means that any rom image that utilizes the FX chip, such as Super Mario World 2 - Yoshi's Island, Starfox, and Stunt Racer are not supported on the jailbroken Super NT? If I get a physical cartridge with an FX chip, will it work via pass-through?