FPGA Based Videogame System

[leods]

"seeing that there's no other clone console that comes even remotely close in terms of accuracy. "

 

I don't understand this. do these clone consoles out there have an accuracy problem? I searched the internet and didn't really find much. I had someone say those are actual 1 chips in those being produced by someone, somehow.

 

If we're going to argue about this at all, I'd at least like to know what level of accuracy these clones like the Supa Retron, or these chinese clones that look very similar to the originals have.

 

Not that being the best qualifys it as "total accuracy" or "absolute accuracy". Still doesn#t really change anything. But if you're going to say the Super NT is more accurate than a clone, can you tell me the inaccuracies in a Supa retron?

[SegaSnatcher]

 

I don't think it's fair to just call it a "good clone console" seeing that there's no other clone console that comes even remotely close in terms of accuracy.

 

We get that you don't like the Analogue marketing, but why does it bother you so much? Do you really think there are many people out there that feel taken because Analogue promised a 100% perfect recreation, but only delivered 99.99% initially, all while Kevtris works tirelessly to perfect the remaining .01%?

This is why I can't wait for Kevtris to upload footage of all the work that went into making the Super NT possible. He says he filmed multiple hours of footage. I think the MLIG crew said they would edit it for him.

 

That would be an awesome watch even if I don't understand the majority of what he's actually doing lol.

 

Its really hard to appreciate how much time Kevtris really puts in all the products he works on, so I think it would be great to see the man in action.

[SegaSnatcher]

"seeing that there's no other clone console that comes even remotely close in terms of accuracy. "

 

I don't understand this. do these clone consoles out there have an accuracy problem? I searched the internet and didn't really find much. I had someone say those are actual 1 chips in those being produced by someone, somehow.

 

If we're going to argue about this at all, I'd at least like to know what level of accuracy these clones like the Supa Retron, or these chinese clones that look very similar to the originals have.

 

Not that being the best qualifys it as "total accuracy" or "absolute accuracy". Still doesn#t really change anything. But if you're going to say the Super NT is more accurate than a clone, can you tell me the inaccuracies in a Supa retron?

Well, most of the cheap clones have awful sound reproduction. Retron 5's SNES audio is passable at best, but still not anywhere close to Kevtris's implementation of the SNES's APU.

[Forsaken]

"seeing that there's no other clone console that comes even remotely close in terms of accuracy. "

 

I don't understand this. do these clone consoles out there have an accuracy problem? I searched the internet and didn't really find much. I had someone say those are actual 1 chips in those being produced by someone, somehow.

 

If we're going to argue about this at all, I'd at least like to know what level of accuracy these clones like the Supa Retron, or these chinese clones that look very similar to the originals have.

 

Not that being the best qualifys it as "total accuracy" or "absolute accuracy". Still doesn#t really change anything. But if you're going to say the Super NT is more accurate than a clone, can you tell me the inaccuracies in a Supa retron?

lol Retron won't even play chip games. If the few tiny bugs in Super NT bother you that much, you'd take a Retron and smash it with a sledge hammer then drive over it multiple times.

 

Retron is no better than those lame Rasberry Pi emulator boxes.

[cacophony]

"seeing that there's no other clone console that comes even remotely close in terms of accuracy. "

 

I don't understand this. do these clone consoles out there have an accuracy problem? I searched the internet and didn't really find much. I had someone say those are actual 1 chips in those being produced by someone, somehow.

 

If we're going to argue about this at all, I'd at least like to know what level of accuracy these clones like the Supa Retron, or these chinese clones that look very similar to the originals have.

 

Not that being the best qualifys it as "total accuracy" or "absolute accuracy". Still doesn#t really change anything. But if you're going to say the Super NT is more accurate than a clone, can you tell me the inaccuracies in a Supa retron?

 

Uhhh, yes. I'd encourage you to do some research on the other clone SNES systems out there. I'm kinda surprised you don't know this already given that you spent the $190 on the Super Nt. Every other SNES clone out there is pretty dreadful.

[leods]

lol Retron won't even play chip games. If the few tiny bugs in Super NT bother you that much, you'd take a Retron and smash it with a sledge hammer then drive over it multiple times.

 

Retron is no better than those lame Rasberry Pi emulator boxes.

Forsaken, I said Supa Retron. Supa retron isn't the Retron 5.

[scott64]

How do SNES on a chip clones work? Is it basically the same as an FPGA except not reprogrammable?

[SegaSnatcher]

How do SNES on a chip clones work? Is it basically the same as an FPGA except not reprogrammable?

They are ASIC based and I'm pretty sure everyone uses the same design that has been recycled for God knows how long. It was crap when it was first designed and still crap now. Just like the NOAC that has been floating around forever

[cacophony]

Forsaken, I said Supa Retron. Supa retron isn't the Retron 5.

 

Here's a review of the Supa Retron:

I didn't watch the whole thing but I did hear "3 frames of lag", "fuzzy image", "motion blur",...

edit: And it's almost certainly not compatible with a large number of cartridges

Edited February 27, 2018 by cacophony

[leods]

 

Here's a review of the Supa Retron:

I didn't watch the whole thing but I did hear "3 frames of lag", "fuzzy image", "motion blur",...

So 3 frames of lag is the inaccuracy you mean? I though accuracy was how the system process the games. I didn#t hear bob say there were any major inaccuracies with the Supa Retron. I have watched this review you linked me about 3 times already. Yeah, it has 3 frames of lag, which is terrible, and smears the image because of poor image processing. It still outputs HDMI and composite at the same time, and seems to work just fine out of a CRT. So if this is all you can say, I guess we just don't agree on what accuracy means.

 

Can you find any game the Supa Retron isn't compatible with?

 

What is so bad about the ASIC in these SNES clones?

 

I'm not even saying these consoles are any good. I am just legitimately asking, because I don't know the answer to these questions.

 

But please, just answer if you have a concrete response to the question being made. This is borderline off-topic here, and I don't want to derail the discussion. What isn't off topic, is the fact that claiming "total accuracy" and "Absolute accuracy" on a system that can't even properly play all games in the licensed library is false advertisement. That has nothing to do with Kevtris and his amazing work on the Super NT. That has to do with Analogue and their PR people. So when someone comes in here, and doesn't understand why the system doesn't replicate the Super Nintendo's behaviour, when it was claimed it was total and completely accurate, it's easy to understand where that comes from. It comes from a correct understanding of Analogue's own claims. Claims that are false. I don't even understand what there is to discuss about it.

[scott64]

They are ASIC based and I'm pretty sure everyone uses the same design that has been recycled for God knows how long. It was crap when it was first designed and still crap now. Just like the NOAC that has been floating around forever

I think people unfairly dump on some of these clone systems. While I've never been impressed with a NOAC, I think the SNES side of the Retro Duo is solid. I've had mine for 9 years and I've never encountered behavior inconsistent with a real SNES. Every game/device I've ever thrown at it just works completely, including Star Fox 2 and Unholy Night. With OEM controllers I can barely tell the difference. The only thing I can notice is that the sound quality is definitely worse, but it's certainly acceptable. And no I'm not a Retrobit employee.

 

In terms of build quality, A/V quality and customizability the Super NT blows the other clones out of the water for sure but I'm not so quick to dismiss them outright.

[ErebusMaligan]

I'm confused as to why people are jumping on someone for pointing out the marketing for the Super NT was a bit misleadingly over-the-top. While marketing being hyperbolic shouldn't surprise anyone... this realization doesn't make it less so.

Some people are acting as if this was a freely released community project that someone is doing in their spare time, as opposed to an item sold for a cost and hyped pretty hard. With some kind of "you should be thankful for what you get" attitude. It's just very, very, bizarre.

I can respect the amount of cost and effort that goes into a project like this, and the engineering Kevtris put into it, as well as the manufacturing aspect of it all. Also, I work in software so I can understand that bugs happen and take time to fix. But acting as if nobody should feel a bit disappointed when they try to do something that works on real hardware, and it doesn't on the Super NT, is just odd. It's like pretending it wasn't marketed the end-all be-all replacement for the SNES... and it most certainly was.

[leods]

BUG REPORT:

 

Street Racer PAL doesn't seem to run on any firmware? Can someone test this? This has been reported to me, the report video is under here:

 

 

I tried this with sd2snes and the game runs just fine. But I'm not sure wether my SD2SNES isn't automatically patching or changing somehting around.

 

It's a very Thorough bug report. Yes, the cart was tested to work on the original Super Nintendo, and even on SNT through the Super UFO

 

Maybe the last bug fix will work for this too? I hope it does.

[Forsaken]

I'm confused as to why people are jumping on someone for pointing out the marketing for the Super NT was a bit misleadingly over-the-top. While marketing being hyperbolic shouldn't surprise anyone... this realization doesn't make it less so.

 

Some people are acting as if this was a freely released community project that someone is doing in their spare time, as opposed to an item sold for a cost and hyped pretty hard. With some kind of "you should be thankful for what you get" attitude. It's just very, very, bizarre.

 

I can respect the amount of cost and effort that goes into a project like this, and the engineering Kevtris put into it, as well as the manufacturing aspect of it all. Also, I work in software so I can understand that bugs happen and take time to fix. But acting as if nobody should feel a bit disappointed when they try to do something that works on real hardware, and it doesn't on the Super NT, is just odd. It's like pretending it wasn't marketed the end-all be-all replacement for the SNES... and it most certainly was.

Well, it hasn't even been out a month yet, and Kevtris has already updated the firmware with fixes what... 5 times now? He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week. At this rate, there won't be any bugs left to find in a few months.

[Jakir]

I'm confused as to why people are jumping on someone for pointing out the marketing for the Super NT was a bit misleadingly over-the-top.

It wasn't. Everything they said about it was true. I'll pass on the debate about if fpga is emulation but regardless of your stance on it the truth is emulation without an fpga can't offer the same accuracy and timings fpga simulation can. And other than that being "debatable" everything else they said can't even be argued with. Sure it was worded to sell product but none of it was incorrect or misleading.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Jakir

[leods]

Well, it hasn't even been out a month yet, and Kevtris has already updated the firmware with fixes what... 5 times now? He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week. At this rate, there won't be any bugs left to find in a few months.

Post release the Super NT got 2 (two) firmware updates. 4.1, that broke more than it fixed, and 4.3 that fixed a lot and added/corrected it's extra features. 2, not 5. not sure where you got your number from.

 

Also, "He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week" No he isn't. There are bugs reported for longer than a week that haven't been fixed. So these things you said are just wrong. And I'm not even being nitpicky about it, it's just completely wrong.

 

Why are we having this discussion? What are you trying to defend?

 

"Everything they said about it was true.": "total accuracy" and "We spent thousands of hours engineering the system via FPGA for absolute accuracy."

 

So these two are true? Damn I wish they sold these fanboy glasses. I'd gladly wear them so I could live in fairy land, with the magic of the FPGA.

 

Listen. This discussion is useless. I will not mention the false advertisement from Analogue in this thread anymore. Promise. But you guys come in here saying things that are completely wrong. People come in the thread, read "SNES ASIC are all terrible", and they'll believe this bullshit. So please, before writing things that are just wrong, please either do research, or just don't write it. This doesn't help anyone.

[ErebusMaligan]

Well, it hasn't even been out a month yet, and Kevtris has already updated the firmware with fixes what... 5 times now? He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week. At this rate, there won't be any bugs left to find in a few months.

 

That is commendable, and honestly i'm not particularly dissatisfied with the console myself so I don't want to give that impression. I just thought the responses to some of leods' posts were really oddly defensive.

 

I personally, am content to wait and hope that most if not all of the bugs get ironed out. However, to illustrate where I was coming from, i'll share my very first experience with the system.

 

First of all, I was pretty enthusiastic about the system since I heard it was announced and placed my preorder what seems like forever ago last year. So, by the time I got mine I was pretty excited. Updated the firmware before doing anything. Configured a few menu/video settings. Popped in my sd2snes, that loaded fine, Great! Loaded Chrono Trigger, hit start at the title screen... black screen. Restarted the system tried again, got past the title screen walked around a bit checked something in the character menu, walked around some more, checked the menu again... black screen.

 

I don't think I've ever had an appropriate reason to use this word in a sentence, but; crestfallen is the only way to describe my feeling at that moment. After all the hype and waiting, that was my first five minutes with the system. Is that a bit melodramatic?... yup . But honestly it was a bit of a let down, so my point was that I can understand someone being disappointed when they go to try something and it doesn't work, that's all.

 

Does kevtris stand by his work? Yeah, he genuinely seems to care about the accuracy and quality of his work. Do I think he will get most or all of the bugs worked out and the system might live up to the marketing hype. Sure, probably. Am I going to die if I have to leave my snes mini hooked up to be able to so something that isn't eventually addressed... well no, but I am indeed running out of space.

 

 

Edit: to clarify: I'm not saying that it's not great that this system exists. I'm not saying that it's not an incredibly impressive achievement. I'm not saying that people should get torches and pitchforks and march on analogue's warehouse. I'm not saying that I don't appreciate kevtris' talent, or a company willing to take the risk on manufacturing something like this in the modern era. I'm just saying that these things don't invalidate someone else's disappointment at, or legitimate criticisms of; a mismatch between marketing and what was delivered.

Edited February 27, 2018 by ErebusMaligan

[Jakir]

Post release the Super NT got 2 (two) firmware updates. 4.1, that broke more than it fixed, and 4.3 that fixed a lot and added/corrected it's extra features. 2, not 5. not sure where you got your number from.

 

Also, "He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week" No he isn't. There are bugs reported for longer than a week that haven't been fixed. So these things you said are just wrong. And I'm not even being nitpicky about it, it's just completely wrong.

 

Why are we having this discussion? What are you trying to defend?

 

"Everything they said about it was true.": "total accuracy" and "We spent thousands of hours engineering the system via FPGA for absolute accuracy."

 

So these two are true? Damn I wish they sold these fanboy glasses. I'd gladly wear them so I could live in fairy land, with the magic of the FPGA.

 

Listen. This discussion is useless. I will not mention the false advertisement from Analogue in this thread anymore. Promise. But you guys come in here saying things that are completely wrong. People come in the thread, read "SNES ASIC are all terrible", and they'll believe this bullshit. So please, before writing things that are just wrong, please either do research, or just don't write it. This doesn't help anyone.

There have been a handful of fairly obscure bug reports in the first week since the product was released to the public and since then Kevtris has made rapid progress on eliminating those bugs. You make it sound like "total accuracy" is just a dream that will never happen but the fact is the version of the firmware the product released with is accurate enough that the vast majority of users will never notice any faults in it at all, and for those without "fanboy glasses" by the time the product is a month or two old I'd be very surprised if anyone discovered any issues with it more than an minor thing here or there on obscure titles, which I'm sure Kevtris would be on top of fixing.

 

If anything calling the Super Nt inaccurate is far more of a false statement than anything you could possibly argue Analogue has said.

[atmn]

I dont know, but I think using "we spent thousands of hours" should mean, we hired a guy that spent thousands of hours engineering the FPGA.

 

I dont doubt the other team spent thousands of hours (marketing, designing, logistics, website), but they didn't reverse engineer the SNES.

 

 

Does anyones Super NT reboot if you disconnect the controller?

 

Anyhow, I love my Super NT.

[leods]

I dont know, but I think using "we spent thousands of hours" should mean, we hired a guy that spent thousands of hours engineering the FPGA.

 

I dont doubt the other team spent thousands of hours (marketing, designing, logistics, website), but they didn't reverse engineer the SNES.

 

 

Does anyones Super NT reboot if you disconnect the controller?

 

Anyhow, I love my Super NT.

The system shuts itself down if you disconnect a, 8bitdo receiver, cause those draw a lot of power, and it's elecrtical protection taking place to protect the system. You're not actually supposed to plug stuff in and out with the system turned on. Don't plug and unplug controllers or carts without turning the console off first.

 

Original controllers seem to not really have this "issue", but even so, better to not plug and unplug like that.

[SegaSnatcher]

Post release the Super NT got 2 (two) firmware updates. 4.1, that broke more than it fixed, and 4.3 that fixed a lot and added/corrected it's extra features. 2, not 5. not sure where you got your number from.

 

Also, "He's fixing bugs you guys report in under a week" No he isn't. There are bugs reported for longer than a week that haven't been fixed. So these things you said are just wrong. And I'm not even being nitpicky about it, it's just completely wrong.

 

Why are we having this discussion? What are you trying to defend?

 

"Everything they said about it was true.": "total accuracy" and "We spent thousands of hours engineering the system via FPGA for absolute accuracy."

 

So these two are true? Damn I wish they sold these fanboy glasses. I'd gladly wear them so I could live in fairy land, with the magic of the FPGA.

 

Listen. This discussion is useless. I will not mention the false advertisement from Analogue in this thread anymore. Promise. But you guys come in here saying things that are completely wrong. People come in the thread, read "SNES ASIC are all terrible", and they'll believe this bullshit. So please, before writing things that are just wrong, please either do research, or just don't write it. This doesn't help anyone.

Because they basically all are terrible, unless you can prove otherwise.

[atmn]

The system shuts itself down if you disconnect a, 8bitdo receiver, cause those draw a lot of power, and it's elecrtical protection taking place to protect the system. You're not actually supposed to plug stuff in and out with the system turned on. Don't plug and unplug controllers or carts without turning the console off first.

 

Original controllers seem to not really have this "issue", but even so, better to not plug and unplug like that.

 

OK, makes sense. Never really bothered to power off any systems before changing controllers. Now when I think about it, it only affect the 8bitdo thingy.

[Kismet]

 

What is so bad about the ASIC in these SNES clones?

 

I'm not even saying these consoles are any good. I am just legitimately asking, because I don't know the answer to these questions.

 

 

Some (presumably chinese) chip fab out there produces the same chip for all the clones. That's why every single ASIC clone is the same, and has the same problems.

 

The build quality of most, if not all cheap clones is also abysmal with sloppy solder, jumper wires, and glue everywhere.

 

The chips you see on SNES clones are TCT-975(APU), TCT-976 (PPU's), TCT-978 (CPU), there's an entire thread from 2015 on it over http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30576-Yobo-FC-Twin-SNES-clones-chipsets-questionsif you want to see what chipsets there are. There's basically 3 generations of chipsets. With the Retron 3 basically having the last version.

 

Suffice it to say, any ASIC isn't going to get a revision. When they run out, they produce more. It's more likely The RetroFreak/Retron 5 is what we will be seeing more of since it's cheaper to buy a cheap ARM SoC than it is to produce more ASIC's. If you look on eBay you will see plenty fake NES Mini Classic and SNES Mini Classic's with those 9-pin controller ports on them.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Kismet

[Atariboy]

I've been impressed with the accuracy of the SNES side of my Retro Duo.

 

Ran everything I tried (Although I believe it has issues with SA-1 games), audio sounded good, no graphical glitches, ran my PAL games with my NTSC CRT without issue, etc. Other than once when I was getting bad static out of one of the audio channels until I powered it down and fired it back up again, it ran perfectly and looked great via S-Video.

 

The only reason it didn't get used much was because I already owned the real deal, relegating it to mostly just the occasional PAL exclusive.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Some (presumably chinese) chip fab out there produces the same chip for all the clones. That's why every single ASIC clone is the same, and has the same problems.

 

The build quality of most, if not all cheap clones is also abysmal with sloppy solder, jumper wires, and glue everywhere.

 

The chips you see on SNES clones are TCT-975(APU), TCT-976 (PPU's), TCT-978 (CPU), there's an entire thread from 1995 on it over http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?30576-Yobo-FC-Twin-SNES-clones-chipsets-questionsif you want to see what chipsets there are. There's basically 3 generations of chipsets. With the Retron 3 basically having the last version.

 

Suffice it to say, any ASIC isn't going to get a revision. When they run out, they produce more. It's more likely The RetroFreak/Retron 5 is what we will be seeing more of since it's cheaper to buy a cheap ARM SoC than it is to produce more ASIC's. If you look on eBay you will see plenty fake NES Mini Classic and SNES Mini Classic's with those 9-pin controller ports on them.

The Atari FlashBack 2 and C64DTV are two examples of ASIC clones done right.