FPGA Based Videogame System

[zeroG]

I think whatever Analogue does next, we won't see it coming. It'll be something out of left field. They're not just gonna keep pumping out $200 FPGA clone systems of every 16 bit console each time with diminishing interest.

 

Diminishing interest? I will buy and be happy about PC Engine, Mega Drive and NeoGeo like I was about the Super Nt. Light users may be interested in the SNES most, but real retro gamers appreciate all systems. Are light users really the target audience of Analogue? Those people are happy with SNES Mini, Pi, etc.

Edited March 8, 2018 by zeroG

[zeroG]

And as for a genesis FPGA, are people ignoring that Kev himself said the 32x and Sega CD aren't doable? You guys want a 200$ plain genesis? Really? You do know they're like 20-30$ with killer RGB?

 

Yes! The SNES is great for JRPGs and Nintendos Jump&Runs. Most other genres like brawlers (Streets of Rage 1-3, Golden Axe 1-3), shmups (Thunderforce 3+4, Elemental Master, MUSHA, Gynog, Hellfire, Gaiares, Gley Lancer), most Disney Jump&Runs, sports games (NHL Hockey) are better on the Mega Drive. It also has classics like Dune 2, Herzog 2, Phantasy Star 2-4, Shining Force 1+2, Shinobi 1+3 & Shadow Dancers, Gunstar Heroes, Story of Thor, Wonderboy in Monster World, Wiz n Liz, Mercs, Warsong, Story of Thor, Mystical Defender and many more.

 

So I would kill to play those games with the same image quality and comfort as I can play SNES games on the Super Nt or NES games on the Nt Mini.

Edited March 8, 2018 by zeroG

[RabidWookie]

At this point I'm starting to lose respect for Analogue and even Kevtris.

 

So the gameplan all along was to dupe people into buying a 200$ snes that doesn't even do what the SD2SNES can?

 

So the gameplan all along was to ignore 1000s of questions about the NT mini cores being ported and just relegate them to a 1300$ scalper machine? Duping many purchasers along the way?

 

Is somebody else able to port the cores then? Or do we just have to accept this giant middle finger from Analogue?

 

I'm about to sell my super nt, at least it looks like I'll be making a healthy profit!

Nobody was duped because nobody was told by Analogue or Kevtris that the Super NT would be jailbroken or play other cores. The NT Mini "scalper machine" was called a limited run and was widely available for most of 2017. If you never bought one it's your own fault. If you bought the Super NT expecting it to be something it was never advertised to be, that's your fault too. Grow up.

[spoonman]

Hard pass on sticking to crts. I have 9/10ths of a frame of lag on my 4k tv. And I'm not going to turn this into a crt vs digital debate.

 

Also even if you manage to get a steal of a deal on your $200 Neo Geo and $75 component cables the flash cart for it alone still costs $500. A $180 fpga hdmi Neo Geo would be nucking futs.

I give up ...LOL. My points are just getting lost here. Furthermore, I think we are agreeing on many if the same things here ($500 flashcart is expensive, $180 FPGA NeoGeo would be great, etc..) but somehow its turned into a disagreement.

 

I never intended to turn it into any type of debate, let alone a CRT vs digital one.. If you read my posts, you would see that I said I love how it looks and plays on my 2 Samsung HDTV's. Showing several photos if it as well.

 

But in all seriousness, if you really do have a 4K TV with only 9/10ths of a frame of lag, please let me know how you tested it, as well as the make and model of it. I'm in the market for a new 4K display, and that sounds like it it's the best for low latency.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Diminishing interest? I will buy and be happy about PC Engine, Mega Drive and NeoGeo like I was about the Super Nt. Light users may be interested in the SNES most, but real retro gamers appreciate all systems. Are light users really the target audience of Analogue? Those people are happy with SNES Mini, Pi, etc.

I stick with the opinion that more people get into Genesis to actually play the games where as there is a lot more of a collector market for SNES for people who just like having things sitting on shelves. That is not to say there isn't a lot of people playing SNES games, but for some reason Nintendo products bring in a certain group of people who don't prioritize actually gaming.

Edited March 8, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[Jakir]

But in all seriousness, if you really do have a 4K TV with only 9/10ths of a frame of lag, please let me know how you tested it, as well as the make and model of it. I'm in the market for a new 4K display, and that sounds like it it's the best for low latency.

I have the TCL P607 model (55 inch version to be exact) Rtings measured the lag at 14ms in game mode across the board: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/p-series-2017-p607

I don't have any professional lag testing equipment but using the lag estimating tool in the 240p test suite my results were 9/10ths of a frame of lag which matches the measurements the pros got. And I got the thing for just $500. Super impressive considering how well the image quality is rated and the response times it has.

[SegaSnatcher]

I give up ...LOL. My points are just getting lost here. Furthermore, I think we are agreeing on many if the same things here ($500 flashcart is expensive, $180 FPGA NeoGeo would be great, etc..) but somehow its turned into a disagreement.

 

I never intended to turn it into any type of debate, let alone a CRT vs digital one.. If you read my posts, you would see that I said I love how it looks and plays on my 2 Samsung HDTV's. Showing several photos if it as well.

 

But in all seriousness, if you really do have a 4K TV with only 9/10ths of a frame of lag, please let me know how you tested it, as well as the make and model of it. I'm in the market for a new 4K display, and that sounds like it it's the best for low latency.

The lowest input lag rating for a consumer HDTV is about 13ms (LG UJ6300 and 7700) PC Monitors can get as low as 8ms.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Analogue strongly hinted they are working on Genesis next, then it will most likely be Neo-Geo. I guestion how PS1 will work unless they will include a CD Rom drive. I doubt they would release a console that is advertised to run ISOs.

 

a ps1 implementation is unlikely since it runs cdrom and requires a copyrighted bios. maybe an fpga could come with an esata port for connecting an external drive (or include one), but you still couldnt play games without a bios. analogue will not release a console that enables piracy out of the box, even if unofficial firmware allows it. so a cdrom is required as well as a bios file. this makes a ps1 or any other cd console unlikely, at least by analogue. i think a base genesis console is more likely, with or without the expansion bay (segacd) and multiout port (32x). i would definitely buy a standalone genesis.

[RabidWookie]

I stick with the opinion that more people get into Genesis to actually play the games where as there is a lot more of a collector market for SNES for people who just like having things sitting on shelves. That is not to say there isn't a lot of people playing SNES games, but for some reason Nintendo products bring in a certain group of people who don't prioritize actually gaming.

That is very true. Nintendo products are collector's items as well as games for a lot of people. Sega products tend to attract more hardcore gamers and fewer collectors. I'm shocked by how much cheaper Genesis stuff still is, especially since Genesis had a higher number of great games (though SNES' AAA games are probably a hair better).

[Atariboy]

It doesn't necessarily need a copyrighted bios. Again, the Bleem example brought up earlier. Sony lost despite trying to pay their way to victory, and ended up buying them if I remember the basics entirely.

 

Let's let Analogue tell us what's next, what they will and will not do, etc. The only way we'll get answers is by being patient and seeing what happens next.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Atariboy

[RabidWookie]

 

 

a ps1 implementation is unlikely since it runs cdrom and requires a copyrighted bios. maybe an fpga could come with an esata port for connecting an external drive (or include one), but you still couldnt play games without a bios. analogue will not release a console that enables piracy out of the box, even if unofficial firmware allows it. so a cdrom is required as well as a bios file. this makes a ps1 or any other cd console unlikely, at least by analogue. i think a base genesis console is more likely, with or without the expansion bay (segacd) and multiout port (32x). i would definitely buy a standalone genesis.

I would pass on an FPGA Genesis without 32X/Sega CD support and play on my CRT while waiting for the FPGA Neo Geo. I'm surprised SNK Playmore hasn't kickstarted a Neo Geo re-release with new carts, they'd make a killing.

[SegaSnatcher]

It doesn't necessarily need a copyrighted bios. Again, the Bleem example brought up earlier. Sony lost despite trying to pay their way to victory, and ended up buying them if I remember the basics entirely.

 

Let's let Analogue tell us what's next, what they will and will not do, etc. The only way we'll get answers is by being patient and seeing what happens next.

You're no fun. Do you find no enjoyment out of a little fun speculation? You don't think Analogue ever considers what people are asking for around the interwebs? If they see a high demand for a Genesis you don't think they'll take that into consideration?

[SegaSnatcher]

I would pass on an FPGA Genesis without 32X/Sega CD support and play on my CRT while waiting for the FPGA Neo Geo. I'm surprised SNK Playmore hasn't kickstarted a Neo Geo re-release with new carts, they'd make a killing.

I think Sega CD support should be included via expansion slot, but I still don't understand why so many people really want 32x support to the point where it would be a deal breaker for them if it wasn't included. There are literally what like 5 good games on the 32x worth playing.

[Forsaken]

The lowest input lag rating for a consumer HDTV is about 13ms (LG UJ6300 and 7700) PC Monitors can get as low as 8ms.

I'm using an Eizo Foris with only 5ms total lag. http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/eizo_foris_fs2735.htm#lag

[Newsdee]

Wonder if there is anything proprietary about the Super NT? Isn't it a rather generic setup with generic FPGA connected directly to all the other generic parts? I mean there aren't any custom chips exclusive to the console. Are there? So theoretically one could write new firmware from scratch. Shouldn't be more difficult than programming a developer board.

In theory it would be enough to know what are the physical pin assignments for the FPGA and the make of the MCU (as well as how to overwrite the binary blobs).

 

But that isn't so practical as you are starting from scratch. It would be better to not touch the MCU code assuming it gives you some base functionality (e.g. read/write to SD card and map controllers), and the ability to upgrade the core from SD card.

 

It is more difficult than a developer board because those are extensively documented and have working examples to get you started. Also Kevtris might be using some proprietary libraries from Altera, which wouldn't be available to random enthusiast developers. These are not insurmountable problems, but one would have to be very motivated.

 

Part of the Minimig/MiST/MiSTer framework is housekeeping utilities from the firmware (e.g. switch core) which means core devs dont have to worry about it. If for example one person portes the framework to this MCU, porting cores or writing new ones would be much easier.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Newsdee

[Shadowgate]

I think Sega CD support should be included via expansion slot, but I still don't understand why so many people really want 32x support to the point where it would be a deal breaker for them if it wasn't included. There are literally what like 5 good games on the 32x worth playing.

 

What's with the excitement for Analogue to repeat the mistakes of Sega? The Sega CD and 32x being expansions made it the laughing stock of the video game world. No console since has repeated that mistake for good reason. Personally a lot of the appeal of an FPGA Genesis, 32x, and Sega CD is not ever having to deal with those expansions again.

 

My current Genesis is a mess. Sega Genesis 1, Sega CD 2, Sega 32X, video cable, headphone audio cable, 32X crossover cable, 3 wall wart ac adapters, model 1 extender, mounting bracket,, and just to add to the spectacle a set cartridge clips. The poor thing looks like a crash victim in the ER.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Shadowgate

[Andromeda Stardust]

Its just fun speculation. What we can't talk about possible future products from Analogue? Sony hasn't announced the PS5, yet people are speculating over it.

 

The "pro" versions of the ps4/xbone, are for all intents and purposes, 9th gen hardware. Ditto for Nintendo Switch. 8th gen is going to officially last a very long time with b/c znd incremental upgrades. Now that Nintendo has consolidated it's handheld and console lines of hardware to run on arm tech, Switch seems poised to take this path as well with a potential Tegra x2 powered Switch 2 in the future. Instead of reinventing the wheel each generation, consoles are migrating to and incremental upgrade state like pcs and mobile devices. So "8th gen" may well be the last...

[SegaSnatcher]

The "pro" versions of the ps4/xbone, are for all intents and purposes, 9th gen hardware. Ditto for Nintendo Switch. 8th gen is going to officially last a very long time with b/c znd incremental upgrades. Now that Nintendo has consolidated it's handheld and console lines of hardware to run on arm tech, Switch seems poised to take this path as well with a potential Tegra x2 powered Switch 2 in the future. Instead of reinventing the wheel each generation, consoles are migrating to and incremental upgrade state like pcs and mobile devices. So "8th gen" may well be the last...

I do not agree. Those Pro versions don't have exclusive games being made for them, so they are still part of the current generation of consoles. They simply take existing software and scale up the resolution/framerate/visuals, but the games are still designed around the vanilla consoles.

[Atariboy]

You're no fun. Do you find no enjoyment out of a little fun speculation? You don't think Analogue ever considers what people are asking for around the interwebs? If they see a high demand for a Genesis you don't think they'll take that into consideration?

 

It's everyone acting like they know what Analogue's intentions, values, and policies are that are annoying.

 

I more than welcome people giving their opinions on what they hope Analogue will do in the future and what they personally think is likely. It's fun to look forward now that many of us have had a few weeks with the Super NT. I know I've put some thought into what possibilities are ahead for upcoming projects and suspect I'll be happy with whatever they decide to tackle next.

 

But instead, we go around and around with one person saying that their opinion is the correct one, the next stating that it couldn't possibly be right because it goes against Analogue's policies, and so on and so on. It's all speculation and opinions. Let's not try to elevate it to something more than it actually is.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

 

It's everyone acting like they know what Analogue's intentions, values, and policies are that are annoying.

 

I more than welcome people giving their opinions on what they hope Analogue will do in the future and what they personally think is likely. It's fun to look forward now that many of us have had a few weeks with the Super NT and the newness is wearing off a bit and we start to consider what possibilities are ahead for upcoming projects.

 

But instead, we go around and around with one person saying that their opinion is the correct one, the next stating that it couldn't possibly be right because it goes against Analogue's policies, and so on and so on.

Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out whats most likely next. Right now, literally only two options makes sense, Genesis or Neo-Geo.

[Atariboy]

See, that's what I'm talking about. That's not good natured speculation with fellow AtariAgers on what the exciting prospects are ahead for Analogue now that the Super NT is released.

 

It's somebody saying that they have an opinion on what Analogue will do next and that it should be accepted as a fact. In reality though, it's only speculation. It's what you personally think is most likely for their next project. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Atariboy

[SegaSnatcher]

See, that's what I'm talking about. That's not good natured speculation with fellow AtariAgers on what the exciting prospects are ahead for Analogue now that the Super NT is released.

 

It's somebody saying that they have an opinion on what Analogue will do next and it should be accepted as a fact. In reality though, it's only speculation. It's what you personally think is most likely for their next project. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then what do you speculate. If you think something else is likely to happen please share. I'd be interested to hear what other people think could happen.

[Andromeda Stardust]

One of the hidden costs of doing the VCS are those 6 switches. I'm pretty sure that every implementation and re-imagining I've seen does something different and somehow ends up with 4 or 5 switches.

 

It's unintuitive, you can get larger cheaper switches or smaller more costly switches, and every design seems to go with the smaller more costly stuff. In addition that the unit is mis-shapen and isn't anywhere near true to the design of the original. Sometimes they come out so retarded looking that not all cartridges fit!

 

Part of the metrics is, again, the switches and sufficiently spacing them out, not cramming them into a 2cm² space for no good reason.

 

And of course there's going to be the 100% compatibility requirement. A system as simple as the VCS, in today's day and age, must be able to run every cart and support every controller. There is no excuse.

Nah the switches are easy to implement. One technical hurdle for 2600 is variable scanline count. You cannot have a "zero delay" mode on a 2600 fpga when the scanlines aren't guaranteed to be fixed at 262 (ntsc) or 312 (pal). You can set hardware to ntsc or pal colors, but full buffered is the only way to play games. This isn't really an issue anymore with the super nt supporting it, but it may prevent running on an otherwise much cheaper fpga.

[Atariboy]

I already did when you asked earlier.

 

But if I had to take a guess, I'd pick three top candidates for the next major Analogue project. I'd go with both of your choices, and I also think that we'll hear about a NT Mini successor one of these days at a more realistic price point in the wake of the obvious sales success of the Super NT.

 

As you can see, I'm not exactly in disagreement with what you think is personally most likely. But it's only my personal speculation. Analogue and Kevtris haven't confirmed anything and I don't think it would be a shock if their next project is a surprise. So the next person's speculation is going to be just as valid as mine, since none of us actually know what's next.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Atariboy

[Andromeda Stardust]

At this point I'm starting to lose respect for Analogue and even Kevtris.

 

So the gameplan all along was to dupe people into buying a 200$ snes that doesn't even do what the SD2SNES can?

 

So the gameplan all along was to ignore 1000s of questions about the NT mini cores being ported and just relegate them to a 1300$ scalper machine? Duping many purchasers along the way?

 

Is somebody else able to port the cores then? Or do we just have to accept this giant middle finger from Analogue?

 

I'm about to sell my super nt, at least it looks like I'll be making a healthy profit!

Take your negativity and gtfo. Super NT is loads more feature filled than a stock Super Nintendo. And currently the jb firmware is unnecessary if you own an Everdrive or SD2SNES, but it is a nice feature to have baked in. Super NT is literally the best thing since apple pie.

 

And as for a genesis FPGA, are people ignoring that Kev himself said the 32x and Sega CD aren't doable? You guys want a 200$ plain genesis? Really? You do know they're like 20-30$ with killer RGB?

And I plan to get the all black Sega model when it debuts. It will fit right at home next to the avs and classic na purple super nt. I think dual SMS and Genesis / MD slots (like the nt mini with nes / famicom) would be a welcome addition for sega fans in lieu of not supporting cd or 32x peripherals. Especially if adding an expansion slot and analog multi-out raised the price from $200 to $300.