FPGA Based Videogame System

[Forsaken]

 

I know, but from what I've heard many consider the Nt Mini core to be superior. From memory the Nt Mini core has better audio quality (no buss hiss) and supports the desirable 7x (screen filling) scale. Plus the Super Gameboy apparently introduces a bunch of input lag (extra 40ms)

 

There is an issue opened for Super Nt scaling on the Super Nt: https://github.com/SmokeMonsterPacks/Super-NT-Jailbreak/issues/94

Whoa, 40ms? Geezus. I had no idea super gameboy was that laggy.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Whoa, 40ms? Geezus. I had no idea super gameboy was that laggy.

 

is there evidence to back this claim???

[Lost Gaijin]

 

awesome. i put decals on my avs to. and a nintendo entertainment system logo for the lid. i ordered a chrome super nintendo logo for the super nt as well.

Where'd you order the logo? Can't find much except off eBay.

EDIT: Wait, Etsy has some cool ones: https://etsy.me/2Grb2Zg

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

Edited April 1, 2018 by Lost Gaijin

[cacophony]

 

 

is there evidence to back this claim???

 

 

(this link is supposed to start at 11:31, but that doesn't appear to be working)

Edited April 1, 2018 by cacophony

[phoenixdownita]

....

(this link is supposed to start at 11:31, but that doesn't appear to be working)

...did I hear it right that he clocks the SuperNt native on that Samsung 4K of his set in game mode at 40ms?

(and with the superGB another 40ms for a total of 80ms???)

 

 

That TV is doing a very poor job if that's true as the SuperNt is supposed to run at no lag .... if that TV adds 40msec that's almost 3 full frames .... something does not add up.

[cacophony]

...did I hear it right that he clocks the SuperNt native on that Samsung 4K of his set in game mode at 40ms?

(and with the superGB another 40ms for a total of 80ms???)

 

 

That TV is doing a very poor job if that's true as the SuperNt is supposed to run at no lag .... if that TV adds 40msec that's almost 3 full frames .... something does not add up.

Yes, that's what he got. He showed his test methodology so while it may not be perfect it's probably not that far off. I'm guessing the TV contributes 20-30ms of that lag.

 

According to this a real SNES hooked to a CRT has 3 frames of lag for SMW:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1L4AUY7q2OSztes77yBsgHKi_Mt4fIqmMR8okfSJHbM4/pub?hl=en&single=true&gid=0&output=html

There's also this:

https://forums.libretro.com/t/an-input-lag-investigation/4407/424

 

The zero lag claim for the Super Nt must mean it matches the original hardware?

Edited April 1, 2018 by cacophony

[RetrogamerX]

Whoa, 40ms? Geezus. I had no idea super gameboy was that laggy.

 

 

I have no lag on my Super Gameboy 2 on my Super NT. Runs butter smooth and lag free.

[cacophony]

I have no lag on my Super Gameboy 2 on my Super NT. Runs butter smooth and lag free.

No lag that you can detect. Only way to confidently say "there's no lag" is to actually measure it with a high speed camera.

Edited April 1, 2018 by cacophony

[kevtris]

 

Yes, that's what he got. He showed his test methodology so while it may not be perfect it's probably not that far off. I'm guessing the TV contributes 20-30ms of that lag.

 

According to this a real SNES hooked to a CRT has 3 frames of lag for SMW:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1L4AUY7q2OSztes77yBsgHKi_Mt4fIqmMR8okfSJHbM4/pub?hl=en&single=true&gid=0&output=html

There's also this:

https://forums.libretro.com/t/an-input-lag-investigation/4407/424

 

The zero lag claim for the Super Nt must mean it matches the original hardware?

The "zero lag" claim means the video is being sent out the HDMI as it is being generated by the PPU. There's no inherent lag in the SNES other than the lag the game itself generates. i.e. how long the game takes to process controller inputs. Running a random game is probably not the best way to test lag. You need a test ROM that will do something like change the screen white/black when a button is pressed to accurately gauge lag, and using a video camera isn't a great way either. Unless it can do 1000+ fps I'd imagine. You can use lower fps but would need to start incorporating some statistical analysis to really figure it out. To do a proper job of it a timer that is started when a button is pressed and stops when light is received along with a test ROM that turns the screen white when the button is pressed is the only real sure way of knowing IMO. This would get you accurate reproducible lag measurements.

 

As for the snt's video path itself, it sends out the video as it is being generated with as minimal lag as physically possible (i.e. the snes and hdmi frames both start together at the top, and lag at the very top will be 0ms. The PPU generates video faster than the HDMI can consume it, so there will be a few ms of lag at the bottom, but it's non-cumulative. It is a fixed amount, because the two frames always start at the same time. The discrepancy is due to the HDMI's vblank being shorter relative than the PPU's.

 

Most/all games read the controller in vblank, but then take the next frame to process it (i.e. the game logic usually cannot be run in the vblank itself) so this is going to introduce a mandatory 1 frame of "game lag" due to the game's processing logic. This will take around 16ms or so. A game taking two frames (30ms-32ms) to process fully might not be out of the question especially if it has a "frame rule" where the player and some objects are updated one frame and the enemies and other objects are updated on the next and then alternate.

[RetrogamerX]

No lag that you can detect. Only way to confidently say "there's no lag" is to actually measure it with a high speed camera.

 

 

When playing I don't detect any. I usually notice lag, but not here. plays perfect for me.

Edited April 1, 2018 by RetrogamerX

[F34R]

With the NES/NT Mini, I judge lag by whether Mike Tysons Punch-out can be played lol. I'll have to find a game that required that type of precision timing. I can say playing Super Mario All-Stars, Super Mario Bros. and my jumps are timed really well at the edge of a pipe, or a gap, etc.

[NE146]

I dunno but I think if there's one console that input lag probably doesn't matter a huge amount, it's the Gameboy.

[cowabunga]

Man, I've had mine for around 3 weeks now and what an amazing piece of hardware. I've already bought tons of games for it.

 

Are the scanlines supposed to be completely re-done in one of the future updates? I read somewhere someone said they are supposed to be. That's the only issue I have. I like to have my games perfectly fill the height of the screen (1149 seems to be that spot) and the scanlines just don't look good. I'm not using scanlines at least for now.

[RadikusRLZ]

Same.

 

Why AVS look so stupid? AVS is also very cheap parts made and it is not last forever.

[cacophony]

The "zero lag" claim means the video is being sent out the HDMI as it is being generated by the PPU. There's no inherent lag in the SNES other than the lag the game itself generates. i.e. how long the game takes to process controller inputs. Running a random game is probably not the best way to test lag. You need a test ROM that will do something like change the screen white/black when a button is pressed to accurately gauge lag, and using a video camera isn't a great way either. Unless it can do 1000+ fps I'd imagine. You can use lower fps but would need to start incorporating some statistical analysis to really figure it out. To do a proper job of it a timer that is started when a button is pressed and stops when light is received along with a test ROM that turns the screen white when the button is pressed is the only real sure way of knowing IMO. This would get you accurate reproducible lag measurements.

 

As for the snt's video path itself, it sends out the video as it is being generated with as minimal lag as physically possible (i.e. the snes and hdmi frames both start together at the top, and lag at the very top will be 0ms. The PPU generates video faster than the HDMI can consume it, so there will be a few ms of lag at the bottom, but it's non-cumulative. It is a fixed amount, because the two frames always start at the same time. The discrepancy is due to the HDMI's vblank being shorter relative than the PPU's.

 

Most/all games read the controller in vblank, but then take the next frame to process it (i.e. the game logic usually cannot be run in the vblank itself) so this is going to introduce a mandatory 1 frame of "game lag" due to the game's processing logic. This will take around 16ms or so. A game taking two frames (30ms-32ms) to process fully might not be out of the question especially if it has a "frame rule" where the player and some objects are updated one frame and the enemies and other objects are updated on the next and then alternate.

 

Thanks for the detailed reply, that makes perfect sense!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Same.

I'm gonna snap a photo of mine soon...

 

Got the Super Nintendo decal to go on my Super NT as well that I'm waiting on...

[Andromeda Stardust]

Man, I've had mine for around 3 weeks now and what an amazing piece of hardware. I've already bought tons of games for it.

 

Are the scanlines supposed to be completely re-done in one of the future updates? I read somewhere someone said they are supposed to be. That's the only issue I have. I like to have my games perfectly fill the height of the screen (1149 seems to be that spot) and the scanlines just don't look good. I'm not using scanlines at least for now.

Scanlines will never look good at non-integer ratios.

 

960p pads a little bit. 1200 crops a little bit for 1080p output.

 

If you want integer scaling without cropping or letterbox, use 720p x 1024 (4x width 3x heigth.

[F34R]

I'm interested in seeing decals on the Super NT!!! lol

[Sho]

I'm interested in seeing decals on the Super NT!!! lol

 

More interested in seeing someone paint their Super NT.

[F34R]

 

More interested in seeing someone paint their Super NT.

That'd be nice too!

[Forsaken]

Scanlines will never look good at non-integer ratios.

 

960p pads a little bit. 1200 crops a little bit for 1080p output.

 

If you want integer scaling without cropping or letterbox, use 720p x 1024 (4x width 3x heigth.

Don't bet on it. UltraHDMI does scan lines along with HV anode sag simulation (picture expands as it get brighter), and the scan lines look beautiful no matter what size it's scaling up to, and no matter what resolution it's set to output, even as it bounces up and down in size like a real CRT.

 

Also, I can zoom 720p from the SNT to 1080p with my DVDO iScan without any appreciable distortion to the scanlines, I can even zoom it further to eliminate all black bars above/below the game image without the scanlines looking bad. And the iScan has a game mode that inserts only 6ms of lag without losing many features, so it works out nicely.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'm interested in seeing decals on the Super NT!!! lol

I'll post photos when the decals arrive.

 

 

More interested in seeing someone paint their Super NT.

Not quite that brave, sorry. I put decals on all my consoles though...

[Andromeda Stardust]

Don't bet on it. UltraHDMI does scan lines along with HV anode sag simulation (picture expands as it get brighter), and the scan lines look beautiful no matter what size it's scaling up to, and no matter what resolution it's set to output, even as it bounces up and down in size like a real CRT.

 

Also, I can zoom 720p from the SNT to 1080p with my DVDO iScan without any appreciable distortion to the scanlines, I can even zoom it further to eliminate all black bars above/below the game image without the scanlines looking bad. And the iScan has a game mode that inserts only 6ms of lag without losing many features, so it works out nicely.

Even 720p scanlines aren't 100% even on my TCL 4k hdtv for whatever reason. I know the 240p is integer scaled 3x to 720p, and the 720p is bilinear scaled to 2160p. I have my set on game mode and just pixel (no overscan cropping). Weirdly the 720p scanlines are slightly uneven with every other line appears bolder than the other near the center of the screen, but they look more even towards the top and bottom. It's almost as though the scalar is offset at some subpixel level changing the look of the scanlines ever so slightly near the middle of the screen, despite each scanline should technically be getting approximately 9 uhd pixels tall in the final output, not sure why they have uneven look and only in the center of the screen. 1080p does not exhibit this effect.

 

I'm honestly torn between 1200p 5x (255 scanline intensity; 1536 pixel width) and 720p 3x (170 scanline intensity; 1024 pixel width). I'm using hybrid scanlines but the 1200p lines are too thin at 5x, but look more natural at 3x. I also have used 480p (127 scanline intensity; 640 pixel width) but at 480p, the picture in general is too soft, and at 1080p 5x they are too sharp. I haven't used 960p 4x much as I don't like the letterboxed look so don't really have an opinion of the 3/4 option. The 2/3 width at 720p just looks more natural IMO and a good blend between sharp and soft.

 

I think 3:2 (60% height) (or even 50%-100%-100%-50%-0% for a more blended look) scanlines option would look more natural for 5x setting compared to the current 4:1 (80% height). I know we have the "hybrid" option to thin the scanlines for darker colors but it's barely noticeable because most onscreen colors are bright or fully saturated, at least in SMW which I've been playing a lot of recently. Been knocking on Bowser's front door, haven't beaten the game yet (but I got 5 hits in several times now - that last hit eludes me while he bobs up and down).

[Sho]

I'll post photos when the decals arrive.

 

Not quite that brave, sorry. I put decals on all my consoles though...

 

Can't wait to see them

[spoonman]

 

Why AVS look so stupid? AVS is also very cheap parts made and it is not last forever.

 

Let's not forget what these are. In their purest form, they are made to replicate toys from our youth.

 

I like the look and style of the AVS, simply because it reminds me of the front loader NES, which I have owned since October 1985.

 

Is it cheap?.. you bet! $179.99 for beautiful quality HD NES and Famicom.

Will it last forever? Probably not, but neither will I.

 

 

Here it is without the logo label. Still not bad IMO.

 

And a $4 logo label improves upon it..

 

I also like how the AVS' large cartridge bay keeps the cart protected and free of dust.

 

So does this look stupid? In my opinion no. It looks fine to me.