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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

607 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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Also, some of the people working on the MiSTer have a huge chip on their shoulder and get defensive anytime someone mentions Kevtris or Analogue products. It really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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I don't think Bob "felt" the two frames it's just what he measured. I'm not convinced you'd feel it either tbh. But input lag does accumulate and lower is better.

 

For what it's worth, I notice a 2 frame input lag and get different test results. Let's even say your base setup has 2 frames, and you add two frames on top of that... well, now it is 4 frames. So saying you don't 'feel' 2 frames, sure, maybe some people don't (I do) but when you add 2 frames on top of 2 frames (which is 4 frames) then boom, you're in bad territory where even the most skeptical of the skeptics will admit there is a difference in the feel of play for *some* games.

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I don't think Bob "felt" the two frames it's just what he measured. I'm not convinced you'd feel it either tbh. But input lag does accumulate and lower is better.

I can guarantee you I would feel 4 frames of total lag. My current setup is already at my threshold where I can still find the responsive acceptable anymore than that and its incredibly bothersome.

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For what it's worth, I notice a 2 frame input lag and get different test results. Let's even say your base setup has 2 frames, and you add two frames on top of that... well, now it is 4 frames. So saying you don't 'feel' 2 frames, sure, maybe some people don't (I do) but when you add 2 frames on top of 2 frames (which is 4 frames) then boom, you're in bad territory where even the most skeptical of the skeptics will admit there is a difference in the feel of play for *some* games.

You can go even further and count the baked in lag of games themselves. SNES games are notorious for being kinda laggy compared to Genesis games even on a CRT and I don't mean frame rate slowdown, but actual input lag.

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I can guarantee you I would feel 4 frames of total lag. My current setup is already at my threshold where I can still find the responsive acceptable anymore than that and its incredibly bothersome.

 

I have a Samsung TV with 30 milliseconds of lag vs. my Sony PVM and someday I will upload a YouTube video where I do like a hundred tests using the manual lag tester to show that it's not all in my head. That the different results really do equate in experiencing a game differently.

 

My best friend thinks I am crazy and says he can't even feel 100 milliseconds of lag, which I then in turn tell him he is crazy... I swear, some humans have different frame rates of being able to perceive reality.

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You can go even further and count the baked in lag of games themselves. SNES games are notorious for being kinda laggy compared to Genesis games even on a CRT and I don't mean frame rate slowdown, but actual input lag.

 

Oh yes. Mortal Kombat on a SNES hooked up to a PVM I swear has more lag than the Arcade version on RetroPie using Mame hooked up via RGB... crazy!

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Oh yes. Mortal Kombat on a SNES hooked up to a PVM I swear has more lag than the Arcade version on RetroPie using Mame hooked up via RGB... crazy!

So in reality, if I were to use the MiSTer's HDMI output, into my 2 frame of lag Plasma I could end up with 5 - 7 frames (Dependent on Game) of input lag when you count the baked in game lag. Absolutely horrible and unusable to me.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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So in reality, if I were to use the MiSTer's HDMI output, into my 2 frame of lag Plasma I could end up with 5 - 7 frames (Dependent on Game) of input lag when you count the baked in game lag. Absolutely horrible and unusable to me.

It sounds like you're putting in a lot of effort to try to justify your decision not to purchase a MiSTer setup. It's too bad you haven't had a chance to try it yourself, because I'm pretty sure you'd feel differently.

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It sounds like you're putting in a lot of effort to try to justify your decision not to purchase a MiSTer setup. It's too bad you haven't had a chance to try it yourself, because I'm pretty sure you'd feel differently.

Not a lot of effort. Its literally the only major issue I have with it. Again, pulling the analog signal from the MiSTer's IO board to an OSSC would remedy the lag situation, but that means investing in an OSSC which costs an additional $200 and I don't even know if my HDTV will play nice with it. This is why I was hoping someone would fix the built in HDMI scaler and offer a low lag mode like found in Analoge products, but when asked I got attacked.

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Not a lot of effort. Its literally the only major issue I have with it. Again, pulling the analog signal from the MiSTer's IO board to an OSSC would remedy the lag situation, but that means investing in an OSSC which costs an additional $200 and I don't even know if my HDTV will play nice with it. This is why I was hoping someone would fix the built in HDMI scaler and offer a low lag mode like found in Analoge products, but when asked I got attacked.

Well a lot of effort in that you repeatedly mention it. Which is fine. I want it too! But I'm hopeful that it's coming. It's just that they're working on more important scaler stuff at the moment, like basic compatibility and accuracy. I'm sure once the basics are done the low lag mode will be worked on.

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Well a lot of effort in that you repeatedly mention it. Which is fine. I want it too! But I'm hopeful that it's coming. It's just that they're working on more important scaler stuff at the moment, like basic compatibility and accuracy. I'm sure once the basics are done the low lag mode will be worked on.

I mention it a lot because keeping the input lag down is incredibly important to me, but at the same time I no longer want to play on a CRT for various reasons. I can handle more input lag than a CRT setup, but there comes a point where it becomes too much and after many years of experience I basically know what I can and can't tolerate these days when it comes to frames of input lag.

 

I hope they consider working on a low lag mode as well, but again when I asked they didn't seem all that interested and considered the current latency "Acceptable". They even kinda got aggressive when I mentioned doing the trick where you adjust the frequency to hit a perfect 60hz, that way you can avoid having to use a frame buffer at least for a good majority of consoles. So, I highly doubt we will see that kind of mode get implemented anytime soon.

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I mention it a lot because keeping the input lag down is incredibly important to me, but at the same time I no longer want to play on a CRT for various reasons. I can handle more input lag than a CRT setup, but there comes a point where it becomes too much and after many years of experience I basically know what I can and can't tolerate these days when it comes to frames of input lag.

 

I hope they consider working on a low lag mode as well, but again when I asked they didn't seem all that interested and considered the current latency "Acceptable". They even kinda got aggressive when I mentioned doing the trick where you adjust the frequency to hit a perfect 60hz, that way you can avoid having to use a frame buffer at least for a good majority of consoles. So, I highly doubt we will see that kind of mode get implemented anytime soon.

Sorg responded similarly to the request for sharper hdmi output and then fixed it. But more importantly someone else already took a crack at getting the low lag mode to work so there are definitely interested developers. There's enough interest in it that *somebody* will do it. It's open source so it can't be stooped.

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Sorg responded similarly to the request for sharper hdmi output and then fixed it. But more importantly someone else already took a crack at getting the low lag mode to work so there are definitely interested developers. There's enough interest in it that *somebody* will do it. It's open source so it can't be stooped.

Yeah the scaler in terms of picture quality has definitely seen a huge improvement from what was initially used. I still don't understand how Sorg thought that original super blurry and ringing mess of an image looked fine hahaha.

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Jumping into the MiSTer now is really for the hobbyists and people who just love FPGAs... I know a bunch of people at my former workplace who loved playing around, even programming FPGAs. One guy I knew did a Gameboy core from scratch.

 

I decided early on that it just wasn't for me. I am totally the consumer type... So, for me, I am good to wait until the MiSTer is appropriated by someone who puts it into a shiny box, sells it at a profit (I don't care) to me in an easy-to-use way that is lag-free. Until then, I personally am not interested. But hey, if you are, all power to you... you types who ARE interested in these things are what move the FPGA scene forward IMO anyways. So yeah, appreciate it... but I just don't have the time/patience.

 

That said, I do enjoy listening A LOT to the MiSTer news on Retro RGB casually. It is neat that it is a lot like the project Kevtris proposed that started this thread, but crowd-sourced, sorta. I envisioned the Kevtris FPGA solution a bit more like the Analogue solution: very consumer friendly, maybe a bit pricey, but like buying a sweet luxury vehicle and not a classic car or fixer upper. So yeah, MiSTer is awesome news... just not something that gets me excited to own just yet.

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Jumping into the MiSTer now is really for the hobbyists and people who just love FPGAs... I know a bunch of people at my former workplace who loved playing around, even programming FPGAs. One guy I knew did a Gameboy core from scratch.

 

I decided early on that it just wasn't for me. I am totally the consumer type... So, for me, I am good to wait until the MiSTer is appropriated by someone who puts it into a shiny box, sells it at a profit (I don't care) to me in an easy-to-use way that is lag-free. Until then, I personally am not interested. But hey, if you are, all power to you... you types who ARE interested in these things are what move the FPGA scene forward IMO anyways. So yeah, appreciate it... but I just don't have the time/patience.

 

That said, I do enjoy listening A LOT to the MiSTer news on Retro RGB casually. It is neat that it is a lot like the project Kevtris proposed that started this thread, but crowd-sourced, sorta. I envisioned the Kevtris FPGA solution a bit more like the Analogue solution: very consumer friendly, maybe a bit pricey, but like buying a sweet luxury vehicle and not a classic car or fixer upper. So yeah, MiSTer is awesome news... just not something that gets me excited to own just yet.

Yep, that is basically where I am at too.

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I guess I fall into the group of thinking mister is just over hyped. It comes off like the next douchey catch word of something to use that comes along like all the pedantic trolls who drone on and on about how having a Pi is the answer to everything, acting like a 5 year old could set it up blind folded and that it just works the best when in all cases it's not. Mister seems to have a few flaws, input lag being the big one that'll break it on a lot of TVs. For me using displaylag.com labeling I find you need to be under 30ms on a shelf bought TV or you have problems with the pickier stuff and down from there. If mister is adding some bad level of input lag because of some internal flaws to it that could be corrected, I have to wonder what worth they have to bragging rights when attack claws go out when such issues are brought up.

 

And on that, I didn't know if kevtris or analogue popped up in conversation they got nasty about it, that's a new one on me, but if it's true that reeks of an inferiority complex.

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I guess I fall into the group of thinking mister is just over hyped. It comes off like the next douchey catch word of something to use that comes along like all the pedantic trolls who drone on and on about how having a Pi is the answer to everything, acting like a 5 year old could set it up blind folded and that it just works the best when in all cases it's not. Mister seems to have a few flaws, input lag being the big one that'll break it on a lot of TVs. For me using displaylag.com labeling I find you need to be under 30ms on a shelf bought TV or you have problems with the pickier stuff and down from there. If mister is adding some bad level of input lag because of some internal flaws to it that could be corrected, I have to wonder what worth they have to bragging rights when attack claws go out when such issues are brought up.

 

And on that, I didn't know if kevtris or analogue popped up in conversation they got nasty about it, that's a new one on me, but if it's true that reeks of an inferiority complex.

MiSTer definitely has potential, but its far from being a truly great alternative to say an AVS, NT Mini or Super NT. It might get there eventually, but right now it still in the early adopter stages.

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The "tragedy" of MiSTer is that nobody can make a commercial product out of it at that cost because the FPGA alone is like 2/2.5x times the cost of the subsidized Terasic board.

 

Those boards are supposed to be used to prototype with the FPGA family they install to evaluate performances, flexibility etc...., if MiSTer becomes anywhere close to "commercial" either the price doubles/triples or they have to use a smaller FPGA, not sure what kind of impact that would have to the class of cores it can run then as after all Analogue uses a Cyclone V A4 at less than half the theoretical capabilities of the Cyclone V SE A6 of the DE-10 nano board MiSTer is based upon.

 

I'd say to enjoy the MiSTer until it stays "under the radar" and so is relatively cheap ... it's great it exists, kind of sad it had to cannibalize the MiST but that's another story.

As long as Intel/Altera and Terasic are fine leaving on the table 100US$ per board life is good:

https://www.mouser.com/All-Manufacturers/_/N-0?Keyword=5CSEBA6U23I7&FS=True

 

 

post-36731-0-05646600-1543814960_thumb.jpg

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The "tragedy" of MiSTer is that nobody can make a commercial product out of it at that cost because the FPGA alone is like 2/2.5x times the cost of the subsidized Terasic board.

 

Those boards are supposed to be used to prototype with the FPGA family they install to evaluate performances, flexibility etc...., if MiSTer becomes anywhere close to "commercial" either the price doubles/triples or they have to use a smaller FPGA, not sure what kind of impact that would have to the class of cores it can run then as after all Analogue uses a Cyclone V A4 at less than half the theoretical capabilities of the DE-10 nano board MiSTer is based upon.

 

I'd say to enjoy the MiSTer until it stays "under the radar" and so is relatively cheap ... it's great it exists, kind of sad it had to cannibalize the MiST but that's another story.

As long as Intel/Altera and Terasic are fine leaving on the table 100US$ per board life is good:

https://www.mouser.com/All-Manufacturers/_/N-0?Keyword=5CSEBA6U23I7&FS=True

 

 

attachicon.gif5CSEBA6U23I7.jpg

So the loose chip is more expensive than the whole damn test board? Throw away the pcb then. A reflow oven will easily fix this issue.

 

Why cannot someone buy the prototyping boards in bulk and just use those? The part suppliers get them in bulk wholesale so theoretically any commercial enterprise with a wholesaler's license could do likewise.

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So the loose chip is more expensive than the whole damn test board? Throw away the pcb then. A reflow oven will easily fix this issue.

 

Why cannot someone buy the prototyping boards in bulk and just use those? The part suppliers get them in bulk wholesale so theoretically any commercial enterprise with a wholesaler's license could do likewise.

I am not privy to all the license agreements between the chip manufacturer (Intel/Altera) and the dev kits producer (Terasic in this case).

The chips used are not ES (Engineering Sample) but do come with a DK ending denomination (as in 5CSEBA6U23I7NDK) which I believe means Development Kit (my speculation though).

I think there's some statute of limitation wrt where they can/cannot be used and likely cannot be sold directly for commercial purposes (in this regard I posit it could be similar to the situation for the ES variants).

 

If it was that easy (just order a boatload of subsidized Dev Kits then get the chips out) I am sure there would be no Dev Kits by now ;-) and kevtris would know for sure.

He stated a few times it is just not possible to do it that way, I am not sure if it applies worldwide and/or in legal terms but you know what I mean.

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I guess I fall into the group of thinking mister is just over hyped. It comes off like the next douchey catch word of something to use that comes along like all the pedantic trolls who drone on and on about how having a Pi is the answer to everything, acting like a 5 year old could set it up blind folded and that it just works the best when in all cases it's not. Mister seems to have a few flaws, input lag being the big one that'll break it on a lot of TVs. For me using displaylag.com labeling I find you need to be under 30ms on a shelf bought TV or you have problems with the pickier stuff and down from there. If mister is adding some bad level of input lag because of some internal flaws to it that could be corrected, I have to wonder what worth they have to bragging rights when attack claws go out when such issues are brought up.

 

And on that, I didn't know if kevtris or analogue popped up in conversation they got nasty about it, that's a new one on me, but if it's true that reeks of an inferiority complex.

They sure do, I've witnessed it on the discord chat so far. I still am trying to figure out what I ever did to them to result in such negativity and hate from them.

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They sure do, I've witnessed it on the discord chat so far. I still am trying to figure out what I ever did to them to result in such negativity and hate from them.

.... that's an easy one, you didn't release your cores for free (source and all) and ported them onto MiSTer as you were at it.

My wife hates you for that too (the free part, not the MiSTer part) as she really wanted me to spend 200US$ in something else .... when she got what she wanted though she stopped bugging me about the SuperNT ... she doesn't know yet the MegaSG is also coming ... oh well it will cost me an extra 200US$ to shut her up .... I kind of hate you too right now :mad:

 

<I-was-being-sarcastic />

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.... that's an easy one, you didn't release your cores for free (source and all) and ported them onto MiSTer as you were at it.

My wife hates you for that too (the free part, not the MiSTer part) as she really wanted me to spend 200US$ in something else .... when she got what she wanted though she stopped bugging me about the SuperNT ... she doesn't know yet the MegaSG is also coming ... oh well it will cost me an extra 200US$ to shut her up .... I kind of hate you too right now :mad:

 

<I-was-being-sarcastic />

hah. I try my best!

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They sure do, I've witnessed it on the discord chat so far. I still am trying to figure out what I ever did to them to result in such negativity and hate from them.

 

yeah, I don't get it. It seems to mainly come from Sorgelig who has the attitude that if it's not open source it's pure evil, which is a pretty naive and immature position to take IMO.

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yeah, I don't get it. It seems to mainly come from Sorgelig who has the attitude that if it's not open source it's pure evil, which is a pretty naive and immature position to take IMO.

 

It's perfectly fine to hold your own opinion about open sources vs closed as Sorg did. The spirit of open source is that anyone (or someone) can eventually continue the legacy of someone (or people) prior as far as R&D. Research, code and resources won't exactly die with a creator or be locked behind a company forever. However, it's Kevtris' prerogative to do whatever he wants to do with his projects & code, and everyone will just have to deal with it. This was posted in May:

 

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=29415#p344366

 

Did he tell he will go open source?

Otherwise why everybody are waiting for something? It may end like that SNES guy wanting 400K$ icon_wink.gif

 

Kevtris work is also a dead-end. It's bound to a single device. Tomorrow they will stop to produce it, Kevtris will disappear. And all his cores will become simply useless set of bits.

 

There's a very high level of jealousy & disdain towards Kevtris/Analogue that I've seen from some (not many) people who have jumped onto the MiSTer project, even as end-users. Mainly due to cores not being released to open-source/ported to MiSTer. People definitely consider any core or recreation of a chip by Kevtris to be much more accurate than MiSTer's current offerings. I don't think Sorgelig even dislikes Kevtris at all, he only hates the general idea of closed source projects and is very committed to his idea of and dream of open source (which is interesting discussion in and of itself in the last few days).

Edited by Sho

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