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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

630 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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On 9/16/2019 at 11:20 PM, CZroe said:

Three differences:

 

I wasn't talking to you, attention whore! 🤦‍♂️
And I would be very surprised if you ever say something that catch my interest, BTW.

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On 9/21/2019 at 4:42 AM, spoonman said:

Anyway, my point was that you shouldn't spread false info about original hardware being "plagued by jailbars" because you read it somewhere online.

I'm pretty sure everyone saying this is going by them having personally experienced it, and the number of other people who have also shared that experience.   I don't know wtf you are talking about with never having even heard of the genesis having jailbars, it's a very well known and often stated thing. 

 

I know I personally have 1 model 1, 2 x'eye, and 1 cdx console.  I've never modded the model 1, but all of the others I have done rgb bypass mods on, and even still the only one that I could completely remove the jailbars from, at least visually to me was the CDX.  That required fully lifting the rgb pins and running those only to a voultar bypass board and straight out.  All of the other ones still have jailbars, even after modification in some cases.

 

As for your pictures, they are very difficult to judge.  The lighting is uneven, they have quite a bit of particle noise, and in some cases (the fantasy zone picture for instance) extreme ringing.  In some of the pictures (outrun for instance) there are odd lines patterns, but it's tough to say if that is the result of a signal problem or an element of light bouncing off the display or the camera taking these pictures.

 

 

Honestly, if you are happy with your consoles, that's great... nobody is trying to take that away from you.  The fact is that many people have genesis related hardware with problems though.  While I will agree that the SMS model 1 I have blows everything else out of the water in terms of how visible its jailbars were before modification, they are still there on many genesis consoles.  I think people are just confused as to why you are trying to convince us that our consoles don't in fact have these problems?  It's somewhat baffling.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

I'm pretty sure everyone saying this is going by them having personally experienced it, and the number of other people who have also shared that experience.   I don't know wtf you are talking about with never having even heard of the genesis having jailbars, it's a very well known and often stated thing. 

 

I know I personally have 1 model 1, 2 x'eye, and 1 cdx console.  I've never modded the model 1, but all of the others I have done rgb bypass mods on, and even still the only one that I could completely remove the jailbars from, at least visually to me was the CDX.  That required fully lifting the rgb pins and running those only to a voultar bypass board and straight out.  All of the other ones still have jailbars, even after modification in some cases.

 

As for your pictures, they are very difficult to judge.  The lighting is uneven, they have quite a bit of particle noise, and in some cases (the fantasy zone picture for instance) extreme ringing.  In some of the pictures (outrun for instance) there are odd lines patterns, but it's tough to say if that is the result of a signal problem or an element of light bouncing off the display or the camera taking these pictures.

 

 

Honestly, if you are happy with your consoles, that's great... nobody is trying to take that away from you.  The fact is that many people have genesis related hardware with problems though.  While I will agree that the SMS model 1 I have blows everything else out of the water in terms of how visible its jailbars were before modification, they are still there on many genesis consoles.  I think people are just confused as to why you are trying to convince us that our consoles don't in fact have these problems?  It's somewhat baffling.

 

 

I'm sorry that you are baffled. 

 

I never said I was trying to convince everyone that your consoles don't have problems. I'm simply saying that MY Genesis systems don't have those issues. To say that ALL Genesis systems have jailbars and banding issues without modding is plain and simple... wrong. Why spread lies?

 

Listen, we all love FPGA tech, but there is no reason to spread lies about the "original Genesis hardware being plagued with jailbars and banding problems". That's just not the case. Or that "you need to spend large sums of money on RGB bypass mods and expensive upscalers to make them look good on a modern display". Also false. 

 

I thought my photos were at least clear enough to tell that there are no signs of jailbars. I made sure to show some solid blue, which is obviously the most telling for said jailbars. 

 

 

Uneven lighting? It's a photo of an LCD screen taken with an iPod Touch 6. It's the best I can do with what I have. 

 

HDR-GG-PS_Adventure-vgo-01.jpg

 

As for "ringing" I don't know what that is. Maybe Jpg artifacts? It's also 240p on a 1080p display. You aren't going to get emulator-style sharp pixels.

And "odd lines" simple... Its moiré pattern. A very common effect when taking photos off a screen. The refresh rate gets out of sync and produces that effect. It doesn't look like that on the display though, obviously. 

HDR-SMS-FantasyZoneII-vgo-02.jpg

 

Not to mention, these are photos of an HD display where as the photo of the jailbar example was on a CRT. Jailbars are MUCH MORE obvious on an LCD screen, yet there is absolutely no sign of them here. 

 

 

And speaking of CRT shots. The lines you see here.. also not jailbars. They are "scanlines". :P

 

This is pretty much how I play all of my original 240p hardware. 

SMS-LegendOfIllusion-vgo-01.jpg

 

But there is definitely no sign of this..

b4qkxvz2n1p21.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

 

So again, I'm not saying that some problems may exist with original Sega 16-bit hardware, but instead that it doesn't exist with all Sega 16-bit hardware, and in fact that it may not be plagued with it. The people I've heard examples of jailbars on this system seem to have Japanese Mega Drive consoles. So perhaps it's more common with those than the North American releases. 

 

 

On a related note, when I bought my Neo•Geo AES in 1990, it had a major issue with it's video output. Every time a button was pressed on the controller - the dot crawl video artifacting would slowly scroll from right to left. It was VERY distracting!

 

I went through several different systems in 2 month's time. SNK was sending a new revised AES every week. At one point I had 6 Neo•Geo Gold Systems sitting in my living room, which I felt kind of nervous about TBH. Then they finally sent one which fixed the issue. To this day I've never heard from anyone else who has had this issue, or that has even heard of it existing.

 

So even though 8 out of 9 Neo•Geo AES systems which I tried had awful looking video - I'd never say the AES is plagued with faulty video. That was just my personal experience, and SNK fixed it before most other people bought theirs. Some revisions of consoles may present video problems while others do not.

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, spoonman said:

I'm sorry that you are baffled. 

 

I never said I was trying to convince everyone that your consoles don't have problems. I'm simply saying that MY Genesis systems don't have those issues. To say that ALL Genesis systems have jailbars and banding issues without modding is plain and simple... wrong. Why spread lies?

 

Listen, we all love FPGA tech, but there is no reason to spread lies about the "original Genesis hardware being plagued with jailbars and banding problems". That's just not the case. Or that "you need to spend large sums of money on RGB bypass mods and expensive upscalers to make them look good on a modern display". Also false. 

 

I thought my photos were at least clear enough to tell that there are no signs of jailbars. I made sure to show some solid blue, which is obviously the most telling for said jailbars. 

 

So again, I'm not saying that some problems may exist with original Sega 16-bit hardware, but instead that it doesn't exist with all Sega 16-bit hardware, and in fact that it may not be plagued with it. The people I've heard examples of jailbars on this system seem to have Japanese Mega Drive consoles. So perhaps it's more common with those than the North American releases. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Your picture spamming aside,  I think its time to move on from this topic since you seem to think talk of jailbars and banding issues on Genesis is exaggerated.  You can have your beliefs, but anyone hardcore in the Genesis scene and who's done the research know this is a reality.  If it wasnt then people wouldn't be wasting time coming up with RGB bypass modchips.  I'm glad you don't personally see issues with your consoles, saves you money, but you are gonna just look foolish by dismissing this issue that is extremely common.

Now, how about some fun Analogue speculation?    I sure hope that Analogue Pocket doubles as a Chiptune player.  Imagine having a portable high quality chiptune player + a FPGA handheld device.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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11 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:


Your picture spamming aside,  I think its time to move on from this topic since you seem to think talk of jailbars and banding issues on Genesis is exaggerated.  You can have your beliefs, but anyone hardcore in the Genesis scene and who's done the research know this is a reality.  If it wasnt then people wouldn't be wasting time coming up with RGB bypass modchips.  I'm glad you don't personally see issues with your consoles, saves you money, but you are gonna just look foolish by dismissing this issue that is extremely common.

 

OK, I think part of the problem is that we are talking about different things here. I am speaking specifically about a clean RGB signal coming out of a Model 1 Genesis. Where as others are likely using examples of composite, RF, or Svideo (modded) output, which may present a light jailbars, or in the case of a Model 2, 3, etc, very prominent jailbars. 

 

If you search around to original posts some older formum you will see that much of the "scanlines on Genesis video output" stems from the composite output, and even svideo mods that people were doing back then. Not only that, but the Genesis Model 2 > SegaGenesis_Model2.gif <, 3, and clones are notorious for jailbar issues due to the CXA1145 video encoder, which makes PERFECT SENSE since it's the very same one used in many Sega Master Systems > SegaMasterSystem.gif <.

 

I don't see any jailbars on any of my Model 1 Genesis systems, because I am getting the clean RGB signal, and not from a CXA1145 encoder. When I simply remove the GEN and replace with the SMS (CXA1145 encoder) using the same exact power cable, HD Retrovision cable, and even controllers... THICK JAILBARS. 

 

Also, on Bob's RetroRGB article you sourced, He's using the same exact photo example linked on both the Model 1 bypass page, as well as the Model 2 bypass page.
This photo:
GenesisArcadeTVRGBBypassCompare.jpg

Likely from his Model 2, which he brings up more needing the bypass than the model 1, which he mentions  can actually amplify analog noise.

Quote

just doing a video bypass will actually amplify this noise


He even starts it out by mentioning this:

Quote

 

What model Genesis / Mega Drive is a bypass recommended on?:

All Genesis 2 and later consoles will absolutely benefit from a full audio and video bypass.  The Triple Bypass board is the recommended solution for this, as it handles both audio and video.

 


In addition, he also cites a reason for jailbars being possibly due to unsheilded cables.

I've had my share of RF interference with cheap 3rd party svideo back when the SNES came out and since then have always sought out original 1st party cables whenever possible.

 
Since forums like this will likely remain on the internet, at least in some form, for many years to come - I didn't feel comfortable with leaving it with inaccurate or incomplete information. I am comfortable with saying that some Genesis consoles, mostly Model 2, 3, clones, and some early Mega Drives which use the CXA1145 encoder), can display obvious jailbar patterns. 

 

OK, now I am satisfied with ending this here.

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34 minutes ago, spoonman said:

 

OK, I think part of the problem is that we are talking about different things here. I am speaking specifically about a clean RGB signal coming out of a Model 1 Genesis. Where as others are likely using examples of composite, RF, or Svideo (modded) output, which may present a light jailbars, or in the case of a Model 2, 3, etc, very prominent jailbars. 

 

If you search around to original posts some older formum you will see that much of the "scanlines on Genesis video output" stems from the composite output, and even svideo mods that people were doing back then. Not only that, but the Genesis Model 2 > SegaGenesis_Model2.gif <, 3, and clones are notorious for jailbar issues due to the CXA1145 video encoder, which makes PERFECT SENSE since it's the very same one used in many Sega Master Systems > SegaMasterSystem.gif <.

 

I don't see any jailbars on any of my Model 1 Genesis systems, because I am getting the clean RGB signal, and not from a CXA1145 encoder. When I simply remove the GEN and replace with the SMS (CXA1145 encoder) using the same exact power cable, HD Retrovision cable, and even controllers... THICK JAILBARS. 

 

Also, on Bob's RetroRGB article you sourced, He's using the same exact photo example linked on both the Model 1 bypass page, as well as the Model 2 bypass page.
This photo:


Likely from his Model 2, which he brings up more needing the bypass than the model 1, which he mentions  can actually amplify analog noise.


He even starts it out by mentioning this:


In addition, he also cites a reason for jailbars being possibly due to unsheilded cables.

I've had my share of RF interference with cheap 3rd party svideo back when the SNES came out and since then have always sought out original 1st party cables whenever possible.

 
Since forums like this will likely remain on the internet, at least in some form, for many years to come - I didn't feel comfortable with leaving it with inaccurate or incomplete information. I am comfortable with saying that some Genesis consoles, mostly Model 2, 3, clones, and some early Mega Drives which use the CXA1145 encoder), can display obvious jailbar patterns. 

 

OK, now I am satisfied with ending this here.

Jailbars are an issue on Model 1s too, hence the lifting of the composite pin to clean up the signal.  Also, the vast majority of Model 1s use the CXA1145 encoder.  The only Model 1 that might have a different encoder is the VA6.8, but even then most seem to use the CXA1145 as well.

Bob's quote.  "As an FYI, simply lifting the subcarrier pin from the VDP will show a noticeable RGB video improvement in most revision Genesis 1’s.  It’s not as good as a fully bypass, but is certainly a much easier start to getting better video quality."

Genesis 2s beneift from the triple bypass because Model 2s have weaker sound than most Model 1s, with majority of Model 1s all you need to clean up is the RGB signal as the audio is already good, with the exception of the Model 1 VA7 which has horrible audio like most Model 2s.   Basically if you have a VA2 - VA6.8 Model 1, a simple lifting of the composite pin will clean up the RGB signal, but you lose composite out of course.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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My VA7 Genesis Model 1 has the "grunge distortion" sound through the av / rf jacks, crystal clean composite output using a spliced Din5 midi cable, and crystal clear stereo through the headphone jack.🎧

 

Worst model for collectors, yet it's perfect.

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39 minutes ago, Kosmic Stardust said:

My VA7 Genesis Model 1 has the "grunge distortion" sound through the av / rf jacks, crystal clean composite output using a spliced Din5 midi cable, and crystal clear stereo through the headphone jack.🎧

 

Worst model for collectors, yet it's perfect.


VA7's have horrible audio regardless of output jack.  So either, you don't have a VA7 or haven't heard it compared to a better Model 1.  I mean I'm not talking subtle differences here either.  Any pre VA7 Model 1 sounds way better.  VA7 is about as bad as it gets.  As far as composite quality is concerned its just as bad as any Model 1 Genesis, i.e. composite looks like trash.  Relatively Blurry with a high chance of rainbow banding.  A 32x can help clean up the composite signal though.

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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I wasn't talking to you, attention whore! 
And I would be very surprised if you ever say something that catch my interest, BTW.
Doesn't matter: I was talking to everyone, including you. I made three points that negate the comparison you were making. Interesting that you think this kind of response somehow dismisses me and let's you weasel out of admitting that you never had a valid comparison.

Why did you bother responding at all if you couldn't refute any of those three points? This kind of response is basically futile since everyone can see that you were reduced to dismissive name-calling without anything to address the criticisms. You basically confirm that you were backed into a corner and still weren't willing to admit it.

It's not flattering. You aren't saving-face. You're only digging your hole deeper. Think about that before your next response.

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People, people, people... Does the Mega SG (or any other Analogue product) produce jailbars? If not, then could you please take this discussion to the Sega Genesis sub-forum? It's getting boring.

 

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3 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

People, people, people... Does the Mega SG (or any other Analogue product) produce jailbars? If not, then could you please take this discussion to the Sega Genesis sub-forum? It's getting boring.

 

Kevtris could add this "feature" as a lol.

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13 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Kevtris could add this "feature" as a lol.

I was very close to making the SNES 'refresh line' an option you could toggle on and off for lulz.  Don't make me do it 🙂

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With the new Genesis Mini out and getting very strong (or better!) reviews, I just gotta say...

I like the look of it.  It seems a neat product, might even get one for reasons I don't fully understand (my mind is a mess sometimes).

 

But at the same time, I am by no means, no way, no how regretting my purchase of the Mega Sg.  -thank you so much @kevtris-!!!!!

I've got a ton of original carts, I also have the MegaEverdrive, and have effected the SmokeMonster jailbreak.

Even if I didn't have the MegaEverdrive or jailbreak, this little thing would basically be the absolute ultimate way to play Genesis.

In combination with the 8bitDo M30 wireless, it's just a near perfect experience.  Sharp, fast, crisp, brilliant. 

 

The picture, the sound, just.... Well.  Back in the day I basically bankrupted myself as a college student in order to have a great Trinitron Flat TV and a great sound setup with Bose speakers, Kenwood Amp, Aiwa Subwoofer.  I had a GREAT time showing off my Genesis Model 2 (and later my Sega CDX and Saturn), my little efficiency apartment that was -all about the games and tech- :)  (I didn't know at the time that the Model 2's sound was so far inferior to the Model 1, eep).

The current experience of having the Mega Sg running on a really good LCD tv through 2.1 sound via an optical cable out...it's an all new high.  With the full nostalgic factor of being able to crack open the cases and use the original cartridges...and to play them wirelessly from the couch, looking and sounding better than ever.  Cranking up the Streets of Rage 2, the Rock 'n Roll Racing, the Adventures of Batman (actually I prefer the Batadvantage hack via the SD card...)...looks and sounds freaking amazing.  It is simply the best of new/old / old/new.  SEGA! 

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5 hours ago, spoonman said:

....

 

OK, now I am satisfied with ending this here.

It may help looking also here:

https://medium.com/rgb-inside/comparing-native-rgb-video-quality-of-different-models-of-mega-drive-and-sega-genesis-english-e3d3703270ba

 

I encountered quite my share of jailbars on my 3 genny, all SVideo modded, I also have RGB SCART cables that run via XRGB mini (none of my display systems takes YPbPr) and that improved quite some but did not fix it entirely, so told the article above seems to indicate that by using a SCART switcher (an 8-n-1) that acts as a low pass filter it improves the situation quite a lot. 

 

Anyhow, I have to add my voice to the choir of the Genny jailbars brigaders, they are a thing, they exist, not sure how out of 7 you got no issue. I've never tried the YPbPr conversion cables you have, maybe the converter used does apply some low pass filtering/cleaning ... who knows .... or maybe you really just have a "lucky" setup (Gennys [unlikely], cables, converter [? do you use YPbPr directly?], TV/Monitor).

BTW RGB out of a Genny always goes thru to the encoder and does get touched by it, the 3 RGB inputs of the 1145/1645/KA2195D apply clamping to the signal  ... check here https://console5.com/wiki/CXA1145  (you can find the other two as well) but the problem apparently is way before that.

 

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5 hours ago, Curious Sofa said:

With the new Genesis Mini out and getting very strong (or better!) reviews, I just gotta say...

I like the look of it.  It seems a neat product, might even get one for reasons I don't fully understand (my mind is a mess sometimes).

Fun fact: the Sega Genesis Mini have fake cart doors that perfectly fit GBA carts! 🤣20190922_201103.thumb.jpg.92d7001b8ab081e0b7c54489b81639a1.jpg

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Who is giving the Genesis Mini great reviews?  The Genesis Mini has 8 frames of lag!  If used with wireless controllers and an LCD TV, you could hit a whopping 10 frames or more of lag.

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Who is giving the Genesis Mini great reviews?  The Genesis Mini has 8 frames of lag!  If used with wireless controllers and an LCD TV, you could hit a whopping 10 frames or more of lag.
RetroRGB says 3-7 frames, average 5.

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Don't all those classic systems have lag?  I doubt any of them are using super accurate emulation.  What about the lag of something like the Switch playing the old SNES games?  I bet that's just as bad.  I don't think the people these are targeted toward really will notice or care though they might wonder why they can't beat Mike Tyson or Battletoads when they used to be able.  The people who notice and care are using original equipment on CRTs. 

Edited by Toth

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10 hours ago, Kosmic Stardust said:

Fun fact: the Sega Genesis Mini have fake cart doors that perfectly fit GBA carts! 🤣20190922_201103.thumb.jpg.92d7001b8ab081e0b7c54489b81639a1.jpg

Repaint it in a GBA scheme, say plum (top), white (bottom) and grey (for accentuation) and find some way to run an emulator (or mod real hard-ware, if possible), with physical cart support, USB controllers and bodge it in.  Consolized hand-held.  :)

 

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35 minutes ago, AtariNerd said:

Repaint it in a GBA scheme, say plum (top), white (bottom) and grey (for accentuation) and find some way to run an emulator (or mod real hard-ware, if possible), with physical cart support, USB controllers and bodge it in.  Consolized hand-held.  :)

 

Or we can just wait for Analogue to do their own version of the same thing.  :D

 

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On 9/22/2019 at 8:09 PM, SegaSnatcher said:

Jailbars are an issue on Model 1s too, hence the lifting of the composite pin to clean up the signal.  Also, the vast majority of Model 1s use the CXA1145 encoder.  The only Model 1 that might have a different encoder is the VA6.8, but even then most seem to use the CXA1145 as well.

Bob's quote.  "As an FYI, simply lifting the subcarrier pin from the VDP will show a noticeable RGB video improvement in most revision Genesis 1’s.  It’s not as good as a fully bypass, but is certainly a much easier start to getting better video quality."

Genesis 2s beneift from the triple bypass because Model 2s have weaker sound than most Model 1s, with majority of Model 1s all you need to clean up is the RGB signal as the audio is already good, with the exception of the Model 1 VA7 which has horrible audio like most Model 2s.   Basically if you have a VA2 - VA6.8 Model 1, a simple lifting of the composite pin will clean up the RGB signal, but you lose composite out of course.

Again... my original points (which seemed to have gotten lost in all of this) were:

 

 

 

 

On 9/15/2019 at 2:26 AM, SegaSnatcher said:

Jailbars is a well known issue that plagues Genesis systems.

1. Jailbars are not on every Genesis console. It's not a "plague"as you put it.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 2:26 AM, SegaSnatcher said:

No Genesis offers perfectly clean RGB out without some mods.

2. I have 7 Genesis systems. 5 of them look "perfectly clean" without any modes. The other 2 are a Genesis 2 and Genesis 3, which I kept new in the boxes. I'll guess those have jailbar issues based on many posts that I've read. I'm still using the very same console I bought on launch day (8/24/1989) as my main Genesis. Photos... yay! :P

SegaGenesisLaunchSystemUnboxing-vgo-01.j SegaGenesisLaunchSystemUnboxing-vgo-05.j


3. You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to make original hardware look decent on modern displays. I spend $55 for an HD Retrovision YPbPr cable.

 

Anyway, I'm not saying that Genesis/Mega Drive systems might have jailbars. Some models worse than others, of course. All of my Model 1's are very early revs ("High Def Graphics", non-TMSS) Let's not trash the original consoles just because this is an FPGA forum. 

 

But anyway, I'm done here. They look perfect for me on both LCD and CRT displays, though I mostly use them on a Wega CRT.

I also enjoy using the Mega Sg on modern displays. Agree to disagree I guess.

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