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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

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 This are my thoughts for the incoming Nt mini V2:

If Nt mini V2 has more advanced hardware compared to the Nt mini V1 and they will don't share new improvements there are no excuses to make it 4K out at HDMI for the price (500$) 
 
Yes! I'm a happy Nt mini V1 (second run) owner
Well, except that there's still no reasonable 4K-capable FPGA appropriate for clone consoles. :)

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5 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Well, except that there's still no reasonable 4K-capable FPGA appropriate for clone consoles. :)

Yeah, Kevtris has already stated in a video interview that 4K is too many pixels for the current FPGAs.


I don't believe it's even necessary anyway.  I use my NT Mini on a 4K TV and it looks absolutely phenominal.  I do not believe it will look any better for what it would require.

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10 hours ago, CZroe said:

Definitely barking up the wrong tree by billing integer scaling as some way to preserve the original aspect ratio. If you ever can, it's because you were lucky enough to have a horizontal resolution that was a multiple of 320... not because integer scaling helped you. Interpolating is what helps you hit a target aspect ratio regardless of the native resolution. That's kind of the opposite of what you were saying.

No, what I'm saying is use integer scaling on the NTM, something like 4x 6x and you will have a super sharp image and the aspect ratio will be close enough that it's not a big deal. This choice is better than an exact aspect ratio match with the interpolation feature that you guys want Kevtris to add to the NTM. Of course, the sharpness comment is fact, the close enough comment is IMO, and the better choices is definitely IMO.

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1 hour ago, XtraSmiley said:

No, what I'm saying is use integer scaling on the NTM, something like 4x 6x and you will have a super sharp image and the aspect ratio will be close enough that it's not a big deal. This choice is better than an exact aspect ratio match with the interpolation feature that you guys want Kevtris to add to the NTM. Of course, the sharpness comment is fact, the close enough comment is IMO, and the better choices is definitely IMO.

I hope it doesn't seem like we're piling on you, but this actually isn't true either. My Life In Gaming mentioned the 4x V and 6x H scaling option because then you could get your TV to resize the image to a roughly correct aspect ratio. The problem is that you'll lose the sharpness that comes from a proper integer scale when your TV resizes that image. As a result, it would actually be much better to use a bespoke interpolation mode in the console because then you'd know you were getting the most appropriate image scaling for your content—TV manufacturers rarely publish any details about how their TVs process signals, so there is a good chance that their methods have a negative impact on picture quality, or latency, or maybe even both.

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Yeah, Kevtris has already stated in a video interview that 4K is too many pixels for the current FPGAs.

I don't believe it's even necessary anyway.  I use my NT Mini on a 4K TV and it looks absolutely phenominal.  I do not believe it will look any better for what it would require.


Yeah. 240p x9 and 720p x3 scale perfectly to 4K 2160p anyway. The display's internal scaler is responsible for maintaining an integer scale.

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1 minute ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

I hope it doesn't seem like we're piling on you, but this actually isn't true either. My Life In Gaming mentioned the 4x V and 6x H scaling option because then you could get your TV to resize the image to a roughly correct aspect ratio. The problem is that you'll lose the sharpness that comes from a proper integer scale when your TV resizes that image. As a result, it would actually be much better to use a bespoke interpolation mode in the console because then you'd know you were getting the most appropriate image scaling for your content—TV manufacturers rarely publish any details about how their TVs process signals, so there is a good chance that their methods have a negative impact on picture quality, or latency, or maybe even both.

Are you referring to the example of the LG OLED TV that you could shrink to fit your screen after scaling?

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1 minute ago, Mattelot said:

Are you referring to the example of the LG OLED TV that you could shrink to fit your screen after scaling?

There's nothing necessarily specific about how the LG displays do it; it's more that their method should, in theory, work with any TV that has a 4:3/16:9 toggle.

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1 minute ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

There's nothing necessarily specific about how the LG displays do it; it's more that their method should, in theory, work with any TV that has a 4:3/16:9 toggle.

I was referring to the video you watched.  I think it was the one I remember where they mentioned LG's OLED TVs where you could stretch/skew the image.  They used the 5x option and then used the TV's toggles to fit the image perfectly within the screen.

 

I was asking because I'm curious to the performance of that, if there are any noticeable artifacts or any kind of shimmering.  I'm trying to get the purest, largest, cleanest and most responsive picture out of my NT Mini through HDMI.

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6 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

I was asking because I'm curious to the performance of that, if there are any noticeable artifacts or any kind of shimmering.  I'm trying to get the purest, largest, cleanest and most responsive picture out of my NT Mini through HDMI.

LG TVs seem like they have an extremely robust feature set and great image processing (I think they even publish the amount of time it takes an image to go through the pipeline). If you had to choose a display to go with, an LG OLED is a great choice. I will probably avoid them though, 'cause I have a plasma and I am seriously done with worrying about image retention.

IN OTHER NEWS

Analogue is posting GIFs from NES games on their Twitter feed. Has anyone looked close enough at them to see if:

a) They're rendered with proper geometry.

b) They have proper pixel sizing, implying interpolation.

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1 minute ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

LG TVs seem like they have an extremely robust feature set and great image processing (I think they even publish the amount of time it takes an image to go through the pipeline). If you had to choose a display to go with, an LG OLED is a great choice. I will probably avoid them though, 'cause I have a plasma and I am seriously done with worrying about image retention.

IN OTHER NEWS

Analogue is posting GIFs from NES games on their Twitter feed. Has anyone looked close enough at them to see if:

a) They're rendered with proper geometry.

b) They have proper pixel sizing, implying interpolation.

Thank you.  I currently use a Samsung KS8000 that I've had for a couple years.  The NT Mini looks amazing on it and back then, 20ms input lag was considered "excellent" but now, I'm seeing TVs nearing the 10ms mark.  

 

If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.  They do not have to be 4K, 1080p will do just fine.

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I wonder if they are actually using images from the Pocket or Nt Mini?  It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't I guess for the purposes of a Twitter post.

Edited by Toth

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6 minutes ago, Toth said:

I wonder if they are actually using images from the Pocket or Nt Mini?  It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't I guess for the purposes of a Twitter post.

The guy who does their Twitter .gifs confirmed it's actually running on some emulator, not the actual system, a while ago. He was talking about the Pocket in this context, so I don't know if that goes for the others as well or not.

 

Proof:

 

 

Edited by Steven Pendleton
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1 minute ago, Steven Pendleton said:

The guy who does their Twitter .gifs confirmed it's actually running on some emulator, not the actual system, a while ago. He was talking about the Pocket in this context, so I don't know if that goes for the others as well or not.

That's a very strange thing to do.  If you're wanting to market your products, why not show their performance off instead of something of much lower quality?

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2 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

That's a very strange thing to do.  If you're wanting to market your products, why not show their performance off instead of something of much lower quality?

Yeah, I thought this is strange as well, but that's how it is, apparently. Well, it seems that Twitter links break here for some reason! Weird.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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20 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

Thank you.  I currently use a Samsung KS8000 that I've had for a couple years.  The NT Mini looks amazing on it and back then, 20ms input lag was considered "excellent" but now, I'm seeing TVs nearing the 10ms mark.  

 

If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.  They do not have to be 4K, 1080p will do just fine.

I know the TCL 5 series TVs have low input lag (mid 10ms) and the price to features ratio is really good on TCL sets.  I am not sure about some of the other things but I would start my research with them if I was buying.  I am also one who doesn't want anything that will end up with burn in since I keep TVs for like 10+ years and video games tend to have static images on the screen for up to hours at a time so I would avoid OLED even though people on forums in large don't seem to have issues currently.  I would just always be worried about it.  This site show a bunch of specs for various TVs. Here's the input lag charts. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

Edited by Toth

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That just boggles me.  Their products are marketed as hardware simulators, something better and more sophisticated than emulators and aiming for reference quality.  To show off emulator footage?  😕   

 

I should have guessed since the colors in Kid Icarus are not right, despite the option for other palettes.

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1 minute ago, Toth said:

I know the TCL 5 series TVs have low input lag (mid 10ms) and the price to features ratio is really good on TCL sets.  I am not sure about some of the other things but I would start my research with them if I was buying.  I am also one who doesn't want anything that will end up with burn in since I keep TVs for like 10+ years so I would avoid OLED.  This site show a bunch of specs for various TVs. Here's the input lag charts. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

Thank you, I was eye-balling the TCL ones but I know sometimes, some veteran gamers find some displays that you don't hear about often that fit certain needs much better.

 

What's the deal with OLED and burn-in?  I've not heard about that.  Are they prone?

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4 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

Thank you, I was eye-balling the TCL ones but I know sometimes, some veteran gamers find some displays that you don't hear about often that fit certain needs much better.

 

What's the deal with OLED and burn-in?  I've not heard about that.  Are they prone?

Apparently the technology means it can happen like on a plasma or a CRT where as it shouldn't be permanent on a normal LCD.  However, looking around at various forums people don't seem to have issues with it.  I am just so anal about stuff that I would constantly worry about it ALL the time knowing the potential of it happening is real especially since I keep my TVs for so long.

Edited by Toth

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5 minutes ago, Mattelot said:

That just boggles me.  Their products are marketed as hardware simulators, something better and more sophisticated than emulators and aiming for reference quality.  To show off emulator footage?  😕   

 

I should have guessed since the colors in Kid Icarus are not right, despite the option for other palettes.

There is at least one .gif they have posted with graphical glitches that I know of (WarioWare, which is where this was confirmed to be an emulator in the comments, just in case the link I posted earlier is being weird). It is quite an odd decision, but this sudden shift back toward the Nt Mini prior to the Pocket is also quite strange and unexpected. They did use the timing of that petition very well, however.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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That's a very strange thing to do.  If you're wanting to market your products, why not show their performance off instead of something of much lower quality?

Well, the product doesn't exist yet. I don't think they ever showed a functional prototype, and who wants to see a camera pointed at a screen when the point is to get you feeling nostalgic for the games in anticipation of the preorder? 

Recall that we never saw them showing functional Super Nt and Mega Sg consoles until the review embargos were lifted very close to launch. I certainly wasn't expecting footage of a Pocket. We don't even know when preorders start. atariage_icon_sad.gif

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Well, the product doesn't exist yet. I don't think they ever showed a functional prototype, and who wants to see a camera pointed at a screen when the point is to get you feeling nostalgic for the games in anticipation of the preorder? 

Recall that we never saw them showing functional Super Nt and Mega Sg consoles until the review embargos were lifted very close to launch. I certainly wasn't expecting footage of a Pocket. We don't even know when preorders start. atariage_icon_sad.gif

 

 

 

If it were me, just some actual screen captures would be in my marketing.  Show off how crisp the image is.  


Oh well, you're probably right.  They're doing it to build nostalgia.

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39 minutes ago, CZroe said:

We don't even know when preorders start. atariage_icon_sad.gif

Which is interesting because I thought they said the Pocket would be out in February or something, and with no preorders.

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3 hours ago, Toth said:

I know the TCL 5 series TVs have low input lag (mid 10ms) and the price to features ratio is really good on TCL sets.  I am not sure about some of the other things but I would start my research with them if I was buying.  I am also one who doesn't want anything that will end up with burn in since I keep TVs for like 10+ years and video games tend to have static images on the screen for up to hours at a time so I would avoid OLED even though people on forums in large don't seem to have issues currently.  I would just always be worried about it.  This site show a bunch of specs for various TVs. Here's the input lag charts. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

 

I own a 65-inch LG E9 OLED TV.

 

Regarding burn-in worries, I bought the TV from Best Buy since they offer an extended warranty that covers burn-in.  That way I don’t have to worry about burn-in.  Regardless, the TV gets heavy use since I have a wife and 3 boys.  Wife is heavy on the cable TV and Netflix, whereas my boys are heavy console gamers.  With all that use, my TV has not suffered burn-in... and if it ever does, Best Buy replaces it.

 

In my opinion, the burn-in worries are over hyped, and the huge benefits of the TV should be a big draw for gamers.  Ultra low input lag, 4k resolution, HDR, and colors and contrast that make everything else look washed-out and faded in comparison.  CRTs have better contrast than LCDs, but this OLED beats my CRTs in every way, except input lag... where it gets very close.
 

The LG E9’s input lag is 13.1 ms at 60 hz, i.e., it takes 13.1 ms for the top half of a frame to draw as it is sent to the TV.  A CRT at 60 hz takes about 8 ms to draw the top half of a frame as it is sent to the TV, so that means the OLED only adds 5 ms of lag relative to playing on a CRT.

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28 minutes ago, Jagasian said:

 

I own a 65-inch LG E9 OLED TV.

 

Regarding burn-in worries, I bought the TV from Best Buy since they offer an extended warranty that covers burn-in.  That way I don’t have to worry about burn-in.  Regardless, the TV gets heavy use since I have a wife and 3 boys.  Wife is heavy on the cable TV and Netflix, whereas my boys are heavy console gamers.  With all that use, my TV has not suffered burn-in... and if it ever does, Best Buy replaces it.

 

In my opinion, the burn-in worries are over hyped, and the huge benefits of the TV should be a big draw for gamers.  Ultra low input lag, 4k resolution, HDR, and colors and contrast that make everything else look washed-out and faded in comparison.  CRTs have better contrast than LCDs, but this OLED beats my CRTs in every way, except input lag... where it gets very close.
 

The LG E9’s input lag is 13.1 ms at 60 hz, i.e., it takes 13.1 ms for the top half of a frame to draw as it is sent to the TV.  A CRT at 60 hz takes about 8 ms to draw the top half of a frame as it is sent to the TV, so that means the OLED only adds 5 ms of lag relative to playing on a CRT.

The one thing I miss with my OLED though is good motion resolution for film without resorting to interpolation. The lack of vertical blanking like with a CRT isn't great, but my 1080p LCD HDTV could emulate it with a rolling backlight and it worked great for film and 30fps games.

 

Agree on the burn-in comments though. The Image retention is certainly a bit annoying because the TV keeps getting left on the streaming box's home screen, but don't have any actual burn in. But letting the TV go through it's process for helping clear retention every X hours is pretty important with these sets. 

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