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kevtris

FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

633 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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On 3/3/2020 at 7:20 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

Sure. If you want to see what it actually looks like, here you go:

 

Just know that you will never be able to unsee this, so don't say I didn't warn you.

 

...and now that I pay attention, it looks like John actually made a mistake. He has interpolation OFF on the left and ON on the right, but he labelled them backwards by mistake.

 

Thanks for that demonstration, which helps a lot.

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Shifting the topic for a moment to the NT-Mini.  I know, there is no confirmation about the jailbreak and cores. I won't be running carts so I won't open the package until I hear yay or nay. My choice on my investment.  If it can ONLY play carts or gets jailbroken JUST for NES/Famicom, I would sell mine brand new, and put towards a pocket, dock and eventually, likely the "8." Or if someone wanted the NEW V2 in exchange for a V1 I would look into it.

 

That said, I find there are almost NO videos dedicated to the wacky extra cores. Mostly I find 2017-2018 reviews where the cores are SMS, GG, and Coleco which I have on my MegaSG. I hope someone will see this and start filling that void on youtube.  Also, I'd really like to know about people's actual experiences with using any and all NES controllers for playing the other cores.  I imagine the Atari 7800 would play like a dream since there are conversion kits to make a NES pad play on a 7800. What limitations are there? Did Kevtris eventually add NES zapper support for SMS or any other cores? I can't remember which systems had light gun games. 2600 - nes pad good or are you left wanting an Atari/commodore style joystick? SMS/GG games... are the NES pad start and select buttons mapped in any way for the SMS pause button, etc.?  Does anyone actually PREFER playing SMS games with a NES pad over a SMS pad? Any unusual NES controllers that work surprisingly well for other systems?

 

Finally, did anyone feel that the Analogue FAQ was a bit ambiguous if not misleading by a 'sin' of omission that the console can't output through digital and analog simultaneously?

Edited by seastalker

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49 minutes ago, seastalker said:

2600 - nes pad good or are you left wanting an Atari/commodore style joystick? SMS/GG games... are the NES pad start and select buttons mapped in any way for the SMS pause button, etc.?  Does anyone actually PREFER playing SMS games with a NES pad over a SMS pad?

 

I feel like only people with severe nostalgia to the point of brain damage, or a strong desire for carpal tunnel syndrome prefer the atari joystick to pretty much any controller that can substitute for it including other joysticks if you are so inclined.  It's stiff and just awful, and as many lefties complain, not lefty friendly if you care about such things.  So yeah, an NES pad works fine.

 

Generally even fans of the SMS acknowledge that the design of the SMS pad is functional, but not great.  In fact I remember watching something recently where someone (maybe coury from MLIG) was talking about how the buttons feel mushy aren't aren't spectacular on it.  So I'd say a NES pad is probably superior feeling.  I can't remember if the start button was mapped to pause or not.

 

At the time I first got my Nt Mini the alternative core i was most interested in was the SMS because of how they are so plagued with jailbars on actual hardware.  Now though i'd prefer to play the SMS on the Mega SG since it has more video settings/scanline options.

 

Other than playing some SMS at the time I've never really used most of the other cores other than for testing and screwing around with.  I really use it as just a NES machine.  If you don't have a lot of the other hardware it's a great thing, but I guess I prefer dedicated machines for most things.  I mean I have had a full MiSTer setup since forever, and I never really use that much either other than for tinkering.  I'm not really a MiSTer evangelist at all, but if what you want is a box that loads up as many cores as possible, that is probably your better bet.  I mean there is a way of hooking up most controllers to it one way or another.  So for your needs that seems both more functional and more cost effective (edit: since you don't care about carts at all).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ErebusMaligan
clarification added
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2 hours ago, ErebusMaligan said:

 

I feel like only people with severe nostalgia to the point of brain damage, or a strong desire for carpal tunnel syndrome prefer the atari joystick to pretty much any controller that can substitute for it including other joysticks if you are so inclined.  It's stiff and just awful, and as many lefties complain, not lefty friendly if you care about such things.  So yeah, an NES pad works fine.

 

Generally even fans of the SMS acknowledge that the design of the SMS pad is functional, but not great.  In fact I remember watching something recently where someone (maybe coury from MLIG) was talking about how the buttons feel mushy aren't aren't spectacular on it.  So I'd say a NES pad is probably superior feeling.  I can't remember if the start button was mapped to pause or not.

 

At the time I first got my Nt Mini the alternative core i was most interested in was the SMS because of how they are so plagued with jailbars on actual hardware.  Now though i'd prefer to play the SMS on the Mega SG since it has more video settings/scanline options.

 

Other than playing some SMS at the time I've never really used most of the other cores other than for testing and screwing around with.  I really use it as just a NES machine.  If you don't have a lot of the other hardware it's a great thing, but I guess I prefer dedicated machines for most things.  I mean I have had a full MiSTer setup since forever, and I never really use that much either other than for tinkering.  I'm not really a MiSTer evangelist at all, but if what you want is a box that loads up as many cores as possible, that is probably your better bet.  I mean there is a way of hooking up most controllers to it one way or another.  So for your needs that seems both more functional and more cost effective (edit: since you don't care about carts at all).

 

 

 

 

 

 


For games that do not require an analogue stick, the SNES controller is better than any other console controller.  For fighting games, a fightstick made using real arcade components is better... but only for foghting games.

 

The PlayStation D-Pad is a step backward.  The original NES and Famicom controllers are close, and the dogbone NES controller is even closer to the SNES controller... the lack of buttons on the dogbone makes it inferior to the SNES controller.

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1 hour ago, ErebusMaligan said:


I feel like only people with severe nostalgia to the point of brain damage, or a strong desire for carpal tunnel syndrome prefer the atari joystick to pretty much any controller that can substitute for it including other joysticks if you are so inclined.  It's stiff and just awful, and as many lefties complain, not lefty friendly if you care about such things.  So yeah, an NES pad works fine.

heh I play 2600 on the NT Mini quite often and while that's true for the most part there are a lot of 2600 games with that fast twitch gameplay where you need quick nudges that don't lend themselves well to a d-pad. e.g. games like Reactor, Space-Master X-7 are much more playable with a joystick, and yes I actually do prefer the original atari joystick for them. :)   But regardless.. not like we have much of a choice at the moment, so NES pad it is. I actually sometimes use a NES Advantage for the games which kind of helps.

 

And as I stated earlier in this thread, the 2600 Core is awesome but it's a totally 'glass half full' no driving/paddles control, and controlling the switches like difficulty, select, reset is unintuitive. Plenty of games are fine obviously

 

Re: SMS games, there's no contest. The NES pad beats the SMS pad so it's all good. All games play fine with it, if not better.

 

Colecovision plays fine as well.. but most people have also tried it on the Mega SG. The one thing you get on the NT-Mini is the ability to use the NTT Data pad (with nes-> snes adapter) which give you a usable keypad. You don't get that on the Mega-SG.

 

Adventurevision I've only tried a few times.. it's interesting to finally play it, and that's about all I'll say about that :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jagasian said:


For games that do not require an analogue stick, the SNES controller is better than any other console controller

Saturn

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22 minutes ago, Intense.Mark said:

Agreed. The 8bitdo M30 is the modern successor of it. 

I wish they'd release a 2.4GHz version with Saturn support. The RetroBit one seems fine, but the M30 is terrific.

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1 hour ago, Jagasian said:


For games that do not require an analogue stick, the SNES controller is better than any other console controller.  

I really like the 8bitdos controllers that have a SNES layout plus two analogue sticks. I am tempted to get a wired version for better latency (and they're cheaper top).

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52 minutes ago, Intense.Mark said:

Agreed. The 8bitdo M30 is the modern successor of it. 

 

29 minutes ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

I wish they'd release a 2.4GHz version with Saturn support. The RetroBit one seems fine, but the M30 is terrific.

I have both the Retro-Bit 2.4GHz Saturn controller and the M30 2.4g. They are both plugged into my Mega Sg right now and both are good, but I'd have a hard time deciding between them on real hardware in terms of functionality since I rarely use the turbo (just for messing around in Jurassic Park Rampage Edition where the M30 2.4g turbo fires so fast it slows the game down! Ultra fun!).

 

M30 2.4g technically wins on Mega Sg only because of the menu button, but I still prefer the Saturn controller on Mega Sg overall. Aside from that and a very strange glitch that only happens when opening the MegaSD menu on my real Mega Drive in Castlevania Bloodlines/Vampire Killer with the Retro-Bit controllers, they are both extremely good. I generally use the Mega Sg for a week and then swap to the Mega Drive for a week, and neither of them usually make the switch since I prefer a real SJ-6000 on real hardware, but if I do use a wireless controller, it's almost always Saturn, not 8BitDo.

 

Retro-Bit used to have a noticeably larger amount of lag, but that got patched and they are about the same on my CRT now.

 

If you want to use the M30 2.4g on your Saturn, I guess you could try using it with the RetroPad32 if you have one. Can't say how good it is as I do not have one (or a Saturn, for that matter), but maybe look into it if you're interested.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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12 hours ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

I hope it doesn't seem like we're piling on you, but this actually isn't true either. My Life In Gaming mentioned the 4x V and 6x H scaling option because then you could get your TV to resize the image to a roughly correct aspect ratio. The problem is that you'll lose the sharpness that comes from a proper integer scale when your TV resizes that image. As a result, it would actually be much better to use a bespoke interpolation mode in the console because then you'd know you were getting the most appropriate image scaling for your content—TV manufacturers rarely publish any details about how their TVs process signals, so there is a good chance that their methods have a negative impact on picture quality, or latency, or maybe even both.

OK, then use 4x and 5x, or 5x and 6x and don't use your TV to adjust the size (if your TV would negatively impact image). My point is that as far as aspect ratio it's close enough and it's better to have the sharpness of integer scale, rather than exact aspect ratio and interpolated blurriness, IMO.

 

Don't worry about piling on, I'm snarky, but also thick skinned and try not to dish if I can't take. Also, I appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong, but in this case, my point is as a matter of preference, sharper is better than interpolation, IMO.

 

"As a result, it would actually be much better to use a bespoke interpolation mode in the console because then you'd know you were getting the most appropriate image scaling for your content"

 

And here again is where we disagree. That's your opinion, I have yet to see interpolation that doesn't look weird as the screen scrolls (with the admission I don't have a Super NT), but slightly off aspect ratio doesn't bother me at all.

Edited by XtraSmiley

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2 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

OK, then use 4x and 5x, or 5x and 6x and don't use your TV to adjust the size (if your TV would negatively impact image). My point is that as far as aspect ratio it's close enough and it's better to have the sharpness of integer scale, rather than exact aspect ratio and interpolated blurriness, IMO.

 

Don't worry about piling on, I'm snarky, but also thick skinned and try not to dish if I can't take. Also, I appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong, but in this case, my point is as a matter of preference, sharper is better than interpolation, IMO.

I think you mentioned before that you don't have the Mega Sg or Super Nt, but let me know if you do since I honestly forgot.

 

Anyway, I'd recommend actually trying the h. interpolation just to see if you like it if you do have the AVS, Super Nt, or Mega Sg. Honestly unless you inspect the pixels at point-blank when the game is paused, you probably wouldn't notice the difference at all when actually playing games. In fact, perhaps it's possible that if you didn't use the h. interpolation and someone stealthily enabled it for you and you didn't catch them actually doing it, you probably wouldn't even know that it's on.

 

I should also note that it makes no difference in some games. It all depends on the speed at which the game scrolls. Akumajou Dracula for SFC/Super Castlevania IV still shimmers like crazy with it on or off in the first level, and I am pretty sure it even does it if you use an integer scale on the h. axis as well, but it's been a while since I played it on the Switch where I have the aspect ratio set to integer scales on both axes.

 

No need for v. interpolation since the vertical resolution should be integer scaled, of course, so leave that one off.

 

I do not have the AVS and have never used one so I can't say how good its interpolation is, so maybe someone who does can say some stuff about it.

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No I don't have any products but the Hi-Def NES and the one I have is a prototype from long ago when Kevtris first was doing things, so I don't even know what firmware I have, but I'm pretty sure it was before he wrote any sort of interpolation program anyway. 

 

I guess it's time to let this discussion die. Yes, I was snarky and wrong about perfect aspect ratio and integer scaling. I disagree about it being the best thing since sliced bread though, however I agree it would be great if the NTM had the option so we could all try it and choose what's best for each of us.

 

If I end up getting any of the other products that have it, I'll of course give it a test run. I'll be honest though, why would I use it, even if the shimmer is minor, when the aspect ratio doesn't bother me at all on integer scale, which has perfect visuals?

 

Anyway, I see pre-orders are still open....   :P

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35 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

No I don't have any products but the Hi-Def NES and the one I have is a prototype from long ago when Kevtris first was doing things, so I don't even know what firmware I have, but I'm pretty sure it was before he wrote any sort of interpolation program anyway. 

 

I guess it's time to let this discussion die. Yes, I was snarky and wrong about perfect aspect ratio and integer scaling. I disagree about it being the best thing since sliced bread though, however I agree it would be great if the NTM had the option so we could all try it and choose what's best for each of us.

 

If I end up getting any of the other products that have it, I'll of course give it a test run. I'll be honest though, why would I use it, even if the shimmer is minor, when the aspect ratio doesn't bother me at all on integer scale, which has perfect visuals?

 

Anyway, I see pre-orders are still open....   :P

I don't know anything about the Hi-Def NES other than that kevtris made it, some elements of it (I'm not sure what) are included in either the Nt or Nt Mini (both, maybe?) and that Voultar offers installation services for it that I can't use because he only serves the continental US (and if I did live in the US, as an Alaskan, I still wouldn't be able to get it from him!), so I can't say anything about that. It was one of the options that I was considering getting into NES/FC/FDS with before I went the ultra-cheap route and got the Famicom Mini, and it turns out that I hate the tiny controllers on that thing so I never use it. It looks cute, I guess, but that's about it.

 

If you do try it, I'll be curious to see what you think. I wasn't enthusiastic about interpolation before I tried it, but then I tried it and there's very little (but still noticeable if you intentionally look for evidence of it) difference in sharpness, and I sit like 3 feet away from my screen because I sit at my desk and use a PC monitor for everything. If you didn't know it was on, you'd probably not be aware of it.

 

But if you want to let this die, I won't speak of it anymore.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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Just for the record... What kind of versions of V1 Nt Mini are there?

My guess..

 

Run1, original batch.

Run2, identical with Run1.

Run3, updated VGA with 5V on pin9 for SCART-blanking.

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3 hours ago, atmn said:

Just for the record... What kind of versions of V1 Nt Mini are there?

My guess..

 

Run1, original batch.

Run2, identical with Run1.

Run3, updated VGA with 5V on pin9 for SCART-blanking.

 

I have the updated VGA for blanking (thanks @kevtris for reading our propositions :)).

 

Doesn't was the second run?

 

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14 hours ago, Jagasian said:

 

I own a 65-inch LG E9 OLED TV.

 

Regarding burn-in worries, I bought the TV from Best Buy since they offer an extended warranty that covers burn-in.  That way I don’t have to worry about burn-in.  Regardless, the TV gets heavy use since I have a wife and 3 boys.  Wife is heavy on the cable TV and Netflix, whereas my boys are heavy console gamers.  With all that use, my TV has not suffered burn-in... and if it ever does, Best Buy replaces it.

 

In my opinion, the burn-in worries are over hyped, and the huge benefits of the TV should be a big draw for gamers.  Ultra low input lag, 4k resolution, HDR, and colors and contrast that make everything else look washed-out and faded in comparison.  CRTs have better contrast than LCDs, but this OLED beats my CRTs in every way, except input lag... where it gets very close.
 

The LG E9’s input lag is 13.1 ms at 60 hz, i.e., it takes 13.1 ms for the top half of a frame to draw as it is sent to the TV.  A CRT at 60 hz takes about 8 ms to draw the top half of a frame as it is sent to the TV, so that means the OLED only adds 5 ms of lag relative to playing on a CRT.

I saw a video somewhere of a guy measuring the input lag of a CRT, which was believed to be 0, to actually be 8ms.  I don't remember what I searched for when I found it but trying to search directly for that, I cannot find it.  
 

But thank you for confirming.  I knew that one day, HDTVs would get as low as CRTs.  In 2008, 40ms was as low as you were going to find.  Eight years later, that was cut in half.  Four years after that, almost half again.  

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1 hour ago, Mattelot said:

I saw a video somewhere of a guy measuring the input lag of a CRT, which was believed to be 0, to actually be 8ms.  I don't remember what I searched for when I found it but trying to search directly for that, I cannot find it.  
 

But thank you for confirming.  I knew that one day, HDTVs would get as low as CRTs.  In 2008, 40ms was as low as you were going to find.  Eight years later, that was cut in half.  Four years after that, almost half again.  

Probably RetroRGB

 

This one:

 

https://www.retrorgb.com/genesis-mini-lag-testing.html

 

and this delay is actually for the system itself, not necessarily the TV, so it isn't actually lag. Maybe this isn't the video you saw, though.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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OK, then use 4x and 5x, or 5x and 6x and don't use your TV to adjust the size (if your TV would negatively impact image). My point is that as far as aspect ratio it's close enough and it's better to have the sharpness of integer scale, rather than exact aspect ratio and interpolated blurriness, IMO.

Again, you lost your horizontal integer scale when you used the aspect control to squeeze a certain amount of pixels into a certain amount of pixels that aren't a evenly divisible integer of those pixels (or else you could have just used that number to integer-scale in the first place).

Don't worry about piling on, I'm snarky, but also thick skinned and try not to dish if I can't take. Also, I appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong, but in this case, my point is as a matter of preference, sharper is better than interpolation, IMO.
 
"As a result, it would actually be much better to use a bespoke interpolation mode in the console because then you'd know you were getting the most appropriate image scaling for your content"
 
And here again is where we disagree. That's your opinion, I have yet to see interpolation that doesn't look weird as the screen scrolls (with the admission I don't have a Super NT), but slightly off aspect ratio doesn't bother me at all.

The shimmers when scrolling are caused by source pixels being scaled to different widths due to a lack of interpolation/blending, not by interpolation/blending. Interpolation is what keeps them roughly the same size when distributed across a number of pixels that they can't evenly scale to. You simply can't adjust the aspect controls to cram a square peg into a round hole and call that an "integer scale." If you take a 6x horizontal integer scale and delete every fifth pixel from the output to reduce the horizontal aspect by a fifth then you are going to have uneven pixels and shimmering with horizontal scrolling. 5 doesn't go evenly into 6. The only way to hide this is with interpolation.

Again, you lost your horizontal integer scale when you used the 4:3 aspect control. Things are still mostly sharp due to preserving the vertical aspect control, but now you see why people want a horizontal interpolation along with their vertical integer scale.

Also, when you use the aspect control to squeeze to 4:3 you lose some of the advantage of an integer scale by forcing your TV's scaler to process the image more than it otherwise would. A huge reason to use an integer scale is to bypass that and get low-latency scaling from the source device.

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8 hours ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

I wish they'd release a 2.4GHz version with Saturn support. The RetroBit one seems fine, but the M30 is terrific.

Agreed, given that I'm so generally underwhelmed with 8bitdo's products due to questionable dpads, the M30 is a great controller.  Would love to see it be compatible with the saturn.  Both of my retrobit ones had the c button stick and had to be filed down.  Seems ok now, but I don't really play saturn much anyway, so not positive.

 

As far as the BT vs 2.4Ghz, I understand the objectively measurable lag... but I can't tell the difference at all.  Been using ps4 controllers on most consoles for several years now, and I don't have any issues with input lag that seem to affect gameplay.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

Agreed, given that I'm so generally underwhelmed with 8bitdo's products due to questionable dpads, the M30 is a great controller.  Would love to see it be compatible with the saturn.  Both of my retrobit ones had the c button stick and had to be filed down.  Seems ok now, but I don't really play saturn much anyway, so not positive.

 

As far as the BT vs 2.4Ghz, I understand the objectively measurable lag... but I can't tell the difference at all.  Been using ps4 controllers on most consoles for several years now, and I don't have any issues with input lag that seem to affect gameplay.

 

 

The M30 2.4g seems to be a huge outlier in terms of overall quality, especially the d-pad. My Retro-Bit 2.4GHz controllers are both good, but I saw many people saying that their C buttons were weird. I got lucky.

 

I have heard that some modern games are apparently designed to compensate for input lag somehow.

 

If you have a CRT and a system that you can connect to it and wired and wireless controllers for that system, try a lag test. It's definitely there and noticeable if you look for it. I did it with my Mega Drive and the M30 2.4g and Retro-Bit Genesis and Saturn controllers before Retro-Bit patched the lag out. Wired SJ-6000 was by far the fastest, then the M30 2.4g was next and still good, and the Retro-Bit (forgot which one I tested but I think it was Saturn) was a bit sluggish but still usable unless you need frame perfect timing. Have not tested on CRT since the patch, but it is basically the same on my PC monitor using Mega Sg + HDMI.

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27 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

If you have a CRT

Nope, no CRT here. 😕  Would like to own one, but no room where I have my game setup.

 

Like I said though, I'm not saying the lag isn't there, just that in any games i've ever played it either isn't important or I compensate for it.  I don't play fighting games a lot, nor find anything appealing about speedrunning or anything like that though, so I may just not need that level of perfect timing.

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6 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

Nope, no CRT here. 😕  Would like to own one, but no room where I have my game setup.

 

Like I said though, I'm not saying the lag isn't there, just that in any games i've ever played it either isn't important or I compensate for it.  I don't play fighting games a lot, nor find anything appealing about speedrunning or anything like that though, so I may just not need that level of perfect timing.

That's why I mentioned that I read that modern games do stuff to compensate for the input lag so you don't really notice it, but it does depend on your display probably more than the controller.

 

My old TV 7~8 years ago was impossible to play Rocksmith on because of the lag. I haven't tried it since then because I'm not sure where the Rocksmith cable is and sometimes my computer (was playing PS3 version at the time) does weird stuff when I plug my guitar/bass into it via the Rocksmith cable (which is USB) sometimes.

 

And I never play fighting games either, so it doesn't really bother me at all anyway. Rocksmith was the one exception.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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5 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

That's why I mentioned that I read that modern games do stuff to compensate for the input lag so you don't really notice it, but it does depend on your display probably more than the controller.

 

My old TV 7~8 years ago was impossible to play Rocksmith on because of the lag. I haven't tried it since then because I'm not sure where the Rocksmith cable is and sometimes my computer (was playing PS3 version at the time) does weird stuff when I plug my guitar/bass into it via the Rocksmith cable (which is USB) sometimes.

 

And I never play fighting games either, so it doesn't really bother me at all anyway. Rocksmith was the one exception.

 

Sure, but I'm not talking about modern games, i'm talking about using ps4 controllers with 8bitdo or brooks BT receivers on nes/snes/ps1/ps2/etc.  I see lots of people complain about the bluetooth lag, but I just don't think it makes as much of an impact as people say.

 

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5 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

 

Sure, but I'm not talking about modern games, i'm talking about using ps4 controllers with 8bitdo or brooks BT receivers on nes/snes/ps1/ps2/etc.  I see lots of people complain about the bluetooth lag, but I just don't think it makes as much of an impact as people say.

 

Oh, okay. I was kind of confused when you said PS4 controllers and I figured you meant modern games. I have never tried using new controllers on old systems. I guess I could lag test the SN30 and SF30 Bluetooth controllers on my Super Famicom on my CRT if I wanted to. It probably will still be perfectly playable. I could also try using my PS4 controllers and other stuff that those receivers are able to connect with as well.

 

You know what? I'll try it because I have nothing better to do right now!

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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