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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

667 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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17 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

Like I said though, I'm not saying the lag isn't there, just that in any games i've ever played it either isn't important or I compensate for it.  I don't play fighting games a lot, nor find anything appealing about speedrunning or anything like that though, so I may just not need that level of perfect timing.

Same here.. I never notice lag as I'm just not that good. :lol: However the one sole exception is fighting Mike Tyson in Punchout. i.e. visually watching when he flashes and trying to dodge. If there's lag, you get hit 100% 😛

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Okay, I tested the SN30 Bluetooth vs SFC wired controller on my CRT. Wired is noticeably faster, but the Bluetooth is perfectly fine, just like I thought it would be. I'm sure my SFC is happy, as that's probably the third time I have used it in the past 7 or 8 years!

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I exclusively use wired controllers on my classic systems and even on my PC.  Any lag can make a huge difference in shmups.

Edited by DragonGrafx-16
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2 minutes ago, DragonGrafx-16 said:

I exclusively use wired controllers on my classic systems and even on my PC.  Any lag can make a huge difference in shmups.

I try to do that as much as possible.  I have my NT Mini in my livingroom and used the wireless controller it came with because a normal cord wouldn't reach.  After procrastination, I got my extension cords yesterday and used an original OEM controller.  I prefer the original, authentic feeling and yes, the responsiveness is nice too.  

 

In my game room where my original consoles are, all OEM corded controllers.  

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12 hours ago, Jagasian said:


For games that do not require an analogue stick, the SNES controller is better than any other console controller.

Agreed. But Genesis 6B and Saturn pad are also awesome.

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3 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Probably RetroRGB

 

This one:

 

https://www.retrorgb.com/genesis-mini-lag-testing.html

 

and this delay is actually for the system itself, not necessarily the TV, so it isn't actually lag. Maybe this isn't the video you saw, though.

It is lag.  If you measure display lag on a CRT at 60 hz the same way you measure display lag on an LCD or OLED, you see that there is non-zero display lag.  This way of measuring also shows the benefit of a higher refresh rate.  A CRT running at 120 hz takes half the time to draw the top half of a frame (around 4 ms).  The same applies to the LG E9 OLED: at 120 hz the top half of the frame takes only around 2.5 ms longer than a CRT at 120 hz.

 

 

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2 hours ago, DragonGrafx-16 said:

I exclusively use wired controllers on my classic systems and even on my PC.  Any lag can make a huge difference in shmups.

I am the same, for all game systems PlayStation 2 generation and earlier, purely wired controllers on a CRT for no added lag.  Sometimes I play on my OLED, but again, only wired controllers.

 

Note that USB based controllers, while wired, do add lag because their polling is not synchronized with the rest of the game system.  So USB on a Mister or on a PC, if tuned to minimize lag, will still add 2 ms lag.  Not bad, but since controller lag and display lag add up, you have to keep count.

 

Hopefully some day, Mister gets a proper controller board that allows for true zero controller lag.  2 ms is small, but the entire point of FPGA game reproductions is to strive for perfection.

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1 hour ago, hyrulebr said:

Agreed. But Genesis 6B and Saturn pad are also awesome.

Six face buttons is something I wish the OEM SNES controller had.  Makes fighting games much better.  The HORI Fighting Commander for the Super Famicom added this improvement... but I haven’t tried its Dpad.  Why is it so hard to make a good dpad anyway?

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34 minutes ago, Jagasian said:

Six face buttons is something I wish the OEM SNES controller had.  Makes fighting games much better.  The HORI Fighting Commander for the Super Famicom added this improvement... but I haven’t tried its Dpad.  Why is it so hard to make a good dpad anyway?

At first dpads had to have a physically different design because Nintendo owned the patent... it seems companies that made 3rd party controllers for Nintendo systems were the only ones allowed to use a true + style dpad. But even so, they weren't usually as good as the first party controllers.

 

Genesis and Saturn had round dpads with the + in the middle, PS was and still has separated buttons... etc.

Edited by DragonGrafx-16

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Am I the only person thinks the NES controller was best?  Maybe because that was my first console so my body imprints it as default lol

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I will use wireless for turn based RPG games but wired for everything else.  I do have a dogbone for the nes but I never use it because it doesn't feel genuine to me.  It feels like I am using a controller not meant for the system, lol.

Edited by Toth

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4 hours ago, CZroe said:


Again, you lost your horizontal integer scale when you used the aspect control to squeeze a certain amount of pixels into a certain amount of pixels that aren't a evenly divisible integer of those pixels (or else you could have just used that number to integer-scale in the first place).


The shimmers when scrolling are caused by source pixels being scaled to different widths due to a lack of interpolation/blending, not by interpolation/blending. Interpolation is what keeps them roughly the same size when distributed across a number of pixels that they can't evenly scale to. You simply can't adjust the aspect controls to cram a square peg into a round hole and call that an "integer scale." If you take a 6x horizontal integer scale and delete every fifth pixel from the output to reduce the horizontal aspect by a fifth then you are going to have uneven pixels and shimmering with horizontal scrolling. 5 doesn't go evenly into 6. The only way to hide this is with interpolation.

Again, you lost your horizontal integer scale when you used the 4:3 aspect control. Things are still mostly sharp due to preserving the vertical aspect control, but now you see why people want a horizontal interpolation along with their vertical integer scale.

Also, when you use the aspect control to squeeze to 4:3 you lose some of the advantage of an integer scale by forcing your TV's scaler to process the image more than it otherwise would. A huge reason to use an integer scale is to bypass that and get low-latency scaling from the source device.

 

If you use the 6x by 5x mode on the Nt Mini there's no shimmer, because pixels don't get squeezed. Instead the top/bottom pixels get cropped.

More info from 9:15 - 12:35: 

 

Edited by cacophony
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22 hours ago, jamon1567 said:

Which is interesting because I thought they said the Pocket would be out in February or something, and with no preorders.

All Analogue has ever said about the pocket release date is this: "Pocket is shipping in 2020"

They have also said there will be preorders and that they will let people know before preorders open.

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  If you use the 6x by 5x mode on the Nt Mini there's no shimmer, because pixels don't get squeezed. Instead the top/bottom pixels get cropped.

More info from 9:15 - 12:35: 

 

 

 

Yes. I'm perfectly aware, but thanks.

 

What I'm telling him is that it isn't a 6x horizontal integer scale anymore when you force your TV to resample it for the 4:3 squeeze (with 4x vertical). You're getting your TV to resample and approximate the horizontal interpolation feature the Nt Mini lacks. It doesn't shimmer because it's doing exactly what XtraSmiley says he doesn't want/need. He isn't getting either of the two things he keeps talking about. It's neither the "proper CRT aspect" nor maintaining a horizontal integer scale.

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15 minutes ago, cacophony said:

All Analogue has ever said about the pocket release date is this: "Pocket is shipping in 2020"

They have also said there will be preorders and that they will let people know before preorders open.

Hmmm....I seem to recall them saying February, and I thought others here said so as well. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I guess it doesn't really matter since it didn't happen anyway. If they do plan on doing pre-orders though and haven't even done those yet, then it's probably gonna be quite a while til we get it unfortunately....

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Hmmm....I seem to recall them saying February, and I thought others here said so as well. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I guess it doesn't really matter since it didn't happen anyway. If they do plan on doing pre-orders though and haven't even done those yet, then it's probably gonna be quite a while til we get it unfortunately....
We were discussing their release schedule for past products. The Pocket does not appear to be following that schedule. :(

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7 minutes ago, jamon1567 said:

Hmmm....I seem to recall them saying February, and I thought others here said so as well. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I guess it doesn't really matter since it didn't happen anyway. If they do plan on doing pre-orders though and haven't even done those yet, then it's probably gonna be quite a while til we get it unfortunately....

I agree.  I think it's going to be late 2020.  I would say not even 2020 but it still says so on their site so I guess I will give them the benefit.

Edited by Toth

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42 minutes ago, Toth said:

I will use wireless for turn based RPG games but wired for everything else.  I do have a dogbone for the nes but I never use it because it doesn't feel genuine to me.  It feels like I am using a controller not meant for the system, lol.

 

That's a good point on the turn-based.  Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior are fine for wireless.  Good catch

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3 hours ago, Mattelot said:

 

That's a good point on the turn-based.  Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior are fine for wireless.  Good catch

Controller extension cords for NES and SNES are inexpensive and allow for enough freedom of movement while gaming.

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32 minutes ago, Drunk_Caterpillar said:

What are we, cave men? It's 2020! 😜

2020, where people fall over themselves to pay $500 for an 8-bit game console... myself included 😆

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9 hours ago, CZroe said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. I'm perfectly aware, but thanks.

 

What I'm telling him is that it isn't a 6x horizontal integer scale anymore when you force your TV to resample it for the 4:3 squeeze (with 4x vertical). You're getting your TV to resample and approximate the horizontal interpolation feature the Nt Mini lacks. It doesn't shimmer because it's doing exactly what XtraSmiley says he doesn't want/need. He isn't getting either of the two things he keeps talking about. It's neither the "proper CRT aspect" nor maintaining a horizontal integer scale.

I think may I wasn't being clear in my post. I play mine with perfect integer scaling and close enough aspect ratio. I don't do any trickery with my TV at all. I pointed out that the video from MLiG offers an option with TV adjustment for those who think the aspect ratio is too far off with normal 4x integer ratio scaling.

 

Again, I use my Hi-Def NES with integer scaling (I just checked, it does not do 5x, it does 4.5x, but that's shit) so at 4x, I have integer scale, PERFECT crisp pixels and the aspect ratio is close enough for me that it's fine. There is no shimmer, I tested Contra stage one to check.

 

Using interpolation has historically added in fuzziness that I do not like and don't recommend to anyone else if they are going to the trouble of playing old retro consoles on a modern HDTV.

 

You can argue all day long about 4:3 sizing on an HDTV, I'll listen, but provide no feedback as I don't do it myself. 

 

I was wrong about PERFECT aspect ratio for NES, as I said, it's so damn close I never noticed it was off until I watch that video someone linked. To me, it is crazy to notice the aspect ratio being off that minor, but to accept a shitty interpolated picture, but hey, this is retro gaming, do any crazy thing you want!

 

Based on what Steven has said above, if I ever buy a SuperNT or MegaSG or if the NTM has interpolation loaded, I will try it, but unless it's perfect, I don't think I'll ever use it as the aspect ratio being slightly off doesn't bother me a bit, not even a tiny bit!

 

OK, I think we are good on this topic, but if I've still misunderstood you, let me know!

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I think may I wasn't being clear in my post. I play mine with perfect integer scaling and close enough aspect ratio. I don't do any trickery with my TV at all. I pointed out that the video from MLiG offers an option with TV adjustment for those who think the aspect ratio is too far off with normal 4x integer ratio scaling.
 
Again, I use my Hi-Def NES with integer scaling (I just checked, it does not do 5x, it does 4.5x, but that's shit) so at 4x, I have integer scale, PERFECT crisp pixels and the aspect ratio is close enough for me that it's fine. There is no shimmer, I tested Contra stage one to check.
 
Using interpolation has historically added in fuzziness that I do not like and don't recommend to anyone else if they are going to the trouble of playing old retro consoles on a modern HDTV.
 
You can argue all day long about 4:3 sizing on an HDTV, I'll listen, but provide no feedback as I don't do it myself. 
 
I was wrong about PERFECT aspect ratio for NES, as I said, it's so damn close I never noticed it was off until I watch that video someone linked. To me, it is crazy to notice the aspect ratio being off that minor, but to accept a shitty interpolated picture, but hey, this is retro gaming, do any crazy thing you want!
 
Based on what Steven has said above, if I ever buy a SuperNT or MegaSG or if the NTM has interpolation loaded, I will try it, but unless it's perfect, I don't think I'll ever use it as the aspect ratio being slightly off doesn't bother me a bit, not even a tiny bit!
 
OK, I think we are good on this topic, but if I've still misunderstood you, let me know!


Yeah, with 5x vertical on the Nt Mini, 6x horizontal is even closer. 4x vertical with 6x horizontal is kind of pushing it for me but I'll tolerate it if I can't get horizontal interpolation. When the Hi-Def NES had horizontal interpolation it allowed you to adjust it to maintain as much sharpness as possible. Love my Hi-Def NES. :)

One more thing to note is that many/most people who use integer scaling on Hi-Def NES still aren't getting an integer scale because their display is not configured correctly. Many digital displays slightly crop/scale the image to zoom a tiny bit (simulates overscan) and, thus, the entire image is resampled even if you are sending 1080p to a 1080p set. What's worse: Many TVs hide the options for 1:1 pixels and yet others don't even have a way to turn off the scaling. Most people are getting resampled/interpolated pixels no matter what. :(
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13 hours ago, Jagasian said:

It is lag.  If you measure display lag on a CRT at 60 hz the same way you measure display lag on an LCD or OLED, you see that there is non-zero display lag.  This way of measuring also shows the benefit of a higher refresh rate.  A CRT running at 120 hz takes half the time to draw the top half of a frame (around 4 ms).  The same applies to the LG E9 OLED: at 120 hz the top half of the frame takes only around 2.5 ms longer than a CRT at 120 hz.

 

 

Yeah, I have no idea what the hell I was thinking when I typed that. That's what I get for only sleeping for 4~5 hours a day.

 

It seems we are still talking about interpolation. I tested Akumajou Dracula to see if it shimmers in the Switch collection's integer scaled mode and it does. Digital Foundry says this appears to be a 4X height and a 5X width. I also tested it on the Super Nt with a 3X height and a width of 887 ((8/7) x 256 x 3 = 887.something) and h. interpolation to see if it shimmers and it does. So yeah, it still does depend on the game.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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