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kevtris

FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

637 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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2 minutes ago, vanfanel said:

You can be sure about Master System tearing. It happens here in two different monitors with two different HDMI cables. People seeing this could be read here time ago, and on the github issue tracker. But most people forget about those problems and move on to another solutions to play better, as I did by moving to the MiSTer (I have native db9 ports there, too).

I also tried all kind of settings, like different integer scale sizes. Of course I use zero-lag mode: that's why I use FPGAs to start with. But tearing also happens in buffered modes. Only in Master System games, NOT in Megadrive ones.

 

Music broken in Rastan: you don't know the Master System. I bet you are in USA, where the Master System catalog and importance is almost unknown. Here in Europe, the Master System version of Rastan is a classic of it's catalog: saying that Rastan is a minor game is like saying Wonderboy in Monster Land is a minor game.

 

Pixel blending: I am not the only person that has noticed how broken the selective pixel blending is, and how perfect (yes, PERFECT) the MiSTer core looks with unselective, full-screen pixel blending. Chances are that you never got to know the MegaDrive back in the day: you know it by emulation and now FPGAs, but you did not play the hardware via RF or RCA, like it was played back in the 90s. These methods caused unselective, fullscreen pixel blending that made the games look blurry but very characteristic of the home machine. The MegaDrive games did NOT look sharp like RGB does. Not at all. Game designers took this into account and most games need fullscreen pixel blending to look as intended, blurry and all: basic games like Chakan, Aladdin, Earthworm Jim and Ristar just look bad on the MegaSG, and look perfect on the MiSTer. Again, calling it minor is a demonstration of a huge ignorance about the real system. Worst thing is, it's very easy to implement, because the solution is a simplification of the currently available and broken solution.

 

So, yeah, you made a strong point that you don't really know the machines implemented in the MegaSG.

Emulation was great, but created a generation of players that have a distorted vision of the past, with horribly-looking pixel-perfect gaming in mind as a reference, when games were not supposed nor designed to look like that in the first place.

Please don't be like a Retropie kinda guy coming here to tear down the Mega SG just to talk about your opinion of the "superiority" of the MiSTer platform.   I own one too and really enjoy it, but its kinda in bad taste given we are in Kevtris's thread and I'm sure he's tired of all the comparisons.  Your post just screams of an advertisement for the MiSTer.  Also, your passive aggressive and "I know more than you do" tone to who you are replying to doesn't do you any favors in terms of how you are presenting yourself here.  We can all have our own opinions and share them respectfully.  

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2 hours ago, SegaSnatcher said:

  Regardless of what buffering method used Super Game Boy 1 will always run games at incorrect speeds with tons of stutter, this was fixed with Super Game Boy 2.  The Super Game Boy 2's hardware is not effected by SNT's output since the Super GameBoy 2 has its own crystal which generates its own clock where as SGB1 had to rely on the Super Nintendo's internal clock for timings.  All you would really be doing is adding unnecessary latency when using a buffered mode with the SGB2. 

Are you a speedrunner?  

Yeah, I know, which is why I want the Super Game Boy 2 and not the Super Game Boy. Still, it does have to use the Super Nt as a passthrough device or whatever, and since the zero delay mode doesn't match the exact speed of a real Super Famicom, I wonder if that would mess with the timing of the Super Game Boy 2, which means that it would be better for me to pay 600 yen for a Super Game Boy instead of paying 2500~6000 yen for a Super Game Boy 2 if the timing would be incorrect anyway. Or I could just use fully buffered and get the correct speed, of course.

 

I am not sensitive to lag and can't tell any difference between zero delay and the other modes aside from the obvious screen tearing in single buffer mode, but I'd still rather have the Super Game Boy 2's timings if possible since there is quite a difference between the two of them, from what I have seen. I also wonder what effect this would have on the clock in Pokemon Gold/Silver, as well. I know the delay in fully buffered is there, but if I can't tell the difference...

 

I do not consider myself a speedrunner, but I do always try to beat my previous times in Metroid games every time I play them.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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25 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Yeah, I know, which is why I want the Super Game Boy 2 and not the Super Game Boy. Still, it does have to use the Super Nt as a passthrough device or whatever, and since the zero delay mode doesn't match the exact speed of a real Super Famicom, I wonder if that would mess with the timing of the Super Game Boy 2, which means that it would be better for me to pay 600 yen for a Super Game Boy instead of paying 2500~6000 yen for a Super Game Boy 2 if the timing would be incorrect anyway. Or I could just use fully buffered and get the correct speed, of course.

 

I am not sensitive to lag and can't tell any difference between zero delay and the other modes aside from the obvious screen tearing in single buffer mode, but I'd still rather have the Super Game Boy 2's timings if possible since there is quite a difference between the two of them, from what I have seen. I also wonder what effect this would have on the clock in Pokemon Gold/Silver, as well. I know the delay in fully buffered is there, but if I can't tell the difference...

 

I do not consider myself a speedrunner, but I do always try to beat my previous times in Metroid games every time I play them.

No you still want the SGB2 because it won't have the same level of stuttering or have audio pitch issues like the SGB1.  The only reason to pick up a SGB1 is if you planned to add the crystal yourself to fix the speed issues.

Watch this portion of MLIG's review of Super NT where they bring up the SGB1 and SGB2.   And again, unless you are speedrunning there is no real reason to use the buffered mode for most use cases.

https://youtu.be/d_OW_t9RXEM?t=1252

Edited by SegaSnatcher

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43 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Yeah, I know, which is why I want the Super Game Boy 2 and not the Super Game Boy. Still, it does have to use the Super Nt as a passthrough device or whatever, and since the zero delay mode doesn't match the exact speed of a real Super Famicom, I wonder if that would mess with the timing of the Super Game Boy 2, which means that it would be better for me to pay 600 yen for a Super Game Boy instead of paying 2500~6000 yen for a Super Game Boy 2 if the timing would be incorrect anyway. Or I could just use fully buffered and get the correct speed, of course.

 

I am not sensitive to lag and can't tell any difference between zero delay and the other modes aside from the obvious screen tearing in single buffer mode, but I'd still rather have the Super Game Boy 2's timings if possible since there is quite a difference between the two of them, from what I have seen. I also wonder what effect this would have on the clock in Pokemon Gold/Silver, as well. I know the delay in fully buffered is there, but if I can't tell the difference...

 

I do not consider myself a speedrunner, but I do always try to beat my previous times in Metroid games every time I play them.

Do you mod or solder anything?  If you do you can mod your Super Gameboy to fix the timing.  It's not really too tough especially the one with the preassembled board.  I've used both.  The one with the board is easier as you don't have to lift any pins.

  

http://www.qwertymodo.com/hardware-projects/snes/super-game-boy-clock-mod

https://www.tindie.com/products/qwertymodo/super-gameboy-clock-mod/#product-description

http://soundofsilver.co.uk/blog/#/posts/super-gameboy-speed-fix

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3 minutes ago, Toth said:

Do you mod or solder anything?  If you do you can mod your Super Gameboy to fix the timing.  It's not really too tough especially the one with the preassembled board.  I've used both.  The one with the board is easier as you don't have to lift any pins.

  

http://www.qwertymodo.com/hardware-projects/snes/super-game-boy-clock-mod

https://www.tindie.com/products/qwertymodo/super-gameboy-clock-mod/#product-description

http://soundofsilver.co.uk/blog/#/posts/super-gameboy-speed-fix

This is a very good solution if you already own a SGB1.   You do lose the link port found on the SGB2 though going this route, but honestly doubt it would be used that often.  

Edited by SegaSnatcher
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2 hours ago, RetrogamerX said:

The mister can go fly a kite. 

 

just my opinion.

 

I do not understand this in the slightest.  The Mister is awesome with a ridiculous amount of very accurate cores and generally caters to a different audience, however, the Mega SG and other products are awesome too.  I would hope the Mega SG would be more accurate for any cores it supports with Kevin's expertise.  It appears he has moved on to other projects so updates are very rare unfortunately.

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50 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

No you still want the SGB2 because it won't have the same level of stuttering or have audio pitch issues like the SGB1.  The only reason to pick up a SGB1 is if you planned to add the crystal yourself to fix the speed issues.

Watch this portion of MLIG's review of Super NT where they bring up the SGB1 and SGB2.   And again, unless you are speedrunning there is no real reason to use the buffered mode for most use cases.

https://youtu.be/d_OW_t9RXEM?t=1252

Yeah, I'll take a look at it when I get a chance. I think there is something somewhere on the Super Nt or Mega Sg where it's better to use fully buffered mode and I don't remember what it was. I think I might be remembering a conversation I had with neodev a while ago about CD audio on the MegaSD, but I forgot.

15 minutes ago, Toth said:

Do you mod or solder anything?  If you do you can mod your Super Gameboy to fix the timing.  It's not really too tough especially the one with the preassembled board.  I've used both.  The one with the board is easier as you don't have to lift any pins.

  

http://www.qwertymodo.com/hardware-projects/snes/super-game-boy-clock-mod

https://www.tindie.com/products/qwertymodo/super-gameboy-clock-mod/#product-description

http://soundofsilver.co.uk/blog/#/posts/super-gameboy-speed-fix

I don't mod stuff, so the best thing to do would be to just go get a Super Game Boy 2. There are a lot of them around here recently, and I found a few yellowed ones without the boxes or anything for a decent price recently. Honestly I left all of my Game Boy games in the USA and the only one I've bought since I got here is Solar Striker, so it's not like I'd really have anything to use on it, but I'd like to get one eventually some day and just go rebuy the Japanese versions of all of my Game Boy games to feed to it.

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11 minutes ago, eebuckeye said:

 

I do not understand this in the slightest.  The Mister is awesome with a ridiculous amount of very accurate cores and generally caters to a different audience, however, the Mega SG and other products are awesome too.  I would hope the Mega SG would be more accurate for any cores it supports with Kevin's expertise.  It appears he has moved on to other projects so updates are very rare unfortunately.

I'm sure Kevtris will eventually work on SNT and MSG bugs again sometime in the future, but he's knee deep in Pocket development now.  

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3 hours ago, vanfanel said:

You can be sure about Master System tearing. It happens here in two different monitors with two different HDMI cables. People seeing this could be read here time ago, and on the github issue tracker. But most people forget about those problems and move on to another solutions to play better, as I did by moving to the MiSTer (I have native db9 ports there, too).

I also tried all kind of settings, like different integer scale sizes. Of course I use zero-lag mode: that's why I use FPGAs to start with. But tearing also happens in buffered modes. Only in Master System games, NOT in Megadrive ones.

 

Music broken in Rastan: you don't know the Master System. I bet you are in USA, where the Master System catalog and importance is almost unknown. Here in Europe, the Master System version of Rastan is a classic of it's catalog: saying that Rastan is a minor game is like saying Wonderboy in Monster Land is a minor game.

 

Pixel blending: I am not the only person that has noticed how broken the selective pixel blending is, and how perfect (yes, PERFECT) the MiSTer core looks with unselective, full-screen pixel blending. Chances are that you never got to know the MegaDrive back in the day: you know it by emulation and now FPGAs, but you did not play the hardware via RF or RCA, like it was played back in the 90s. These methods caused unselective, fullscreen pixel blending that made the games look blurry but very characteristic of the home machine. The MegaDrive games did NOT look sharp like RGB does. Not at all. Game designers took this into account and most games need fullscreen pixel blending to look as intended, blurry and all: basic games like Chakan, Aladdin, Earthworm Jim and Ristar just look bad on the MegaSG, and look perfect on the MiSTer. Again, calling it minor is a demonstration of a huge ignorance about the real system. Worst thing is, it's very easy to implement, because the solution is a simplification of the currently available and broken solution.

 

So, yeah, you made a strong point that you don't really know the machines implemented in the MegaSG.

Emulation was great, but created a generation of players that have a distorted vision of the past, with horribly-looking pixel-perfect gaming in mind as a reference, when games were not supposed nor designed to look like that in the first place.

I'm from Europe and I played Master System back in the day. A lot. Stop speculating about people to produce fake arguments, please.

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3 hours ago, vanfanel said:

You can be sure about Master System tearing. It happens here in two different monitors with two different HDMI cables. People seeing this could be read here time ago, and on the github issue tracker. But most people forget about those problems and move on to another solutions to play better, as I did by moving to the MiSTer (I have native db9 ports there, too).

I also tried all kind of settings, like different integer scale sizes. Of course I use zero-lag mode: that's why I use FPGAs to start with. But tearing also happens in buffered modes. Only in Master System games, NOT in Megadrive ones.

And I guess here's the GitHub issue you metioned: https://github.com/SmokeMonsterPacks/Mega-Sg-Jailbreak/issues/64

Going from one other person being able to reproduce it to "The issue exists for many of us" just like in this thread. Fabulous.

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8 hours ago, vanfanel said:

saying that Rastan is a minor game is like saying Wonderboy in Monster Land is a minor game.

 

That's not what was said.  They said that issue for a sample size of 1 makes it not a major issue.  Doesn't matter how important you think the game is.   Yes, this should be fixed... but don't overblow it.

 

 

8 hours ago, vanfanel said:

Emulation was great, but created a generation of players that have a distorted vision of the past, with horribly-looking pixel-perfect gaming in mind as a reference, when games were not supposed nor designed to look like that in the first place.

 

This is nonsensical for a number of reasons. 

 

A) the average age on this forum swings way older, so it makes more sense to assume most people who own a megasg actually did own at least one of these consoles in some form growing up. 

 

B) The rest of the comment is half-true with a generous amount of opinionated nonsense.  While it is true that some graphics were designed to blend with the poor quality composite and viewing devices of the time, that doesn't make someone who doesn't prefer a blurry mess "wrong".  The pixel data is what's there... so whether you were meant to see it that way or not, it exists. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ErebusMaligan said:

 

That's not what was said.  They said that issue for a sample size of 1 makes it not a major issue.  Doesn't matter how important you think the game is.   Yes, this should be fixed... but don't overblow it.

 

 

 

This is nonsensical for a number of reasons. 

 

A) the average age on this forum swings way older, so it makes more sense to assume most people who own a megasg actually did own at least one of these consoles in some form growing up. 

 

B) The rest of the comment is half-true with a generous amount of opinionated nonsense.  While it is true that some graphics were designed to blend with the poor quality composite and viewing devices of the time, that doesn't make someone who doesn't prefer a blurry mess "wrong".  The pixel data is what's there... so whether you were meant to see it that way or not, it exists. 

 

 

Not to mention Sega Genesis consoles have native RGB output as well, so the whole "This is how you were supposed to play these games" is totally subjective.

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29 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Not to mention Sega Genesis consoles have native RGB output as well, so the whole "This is how you were supposed to play these games" is totally subjective.

Also, it can be argued that the 44% of people who voted "HDMI" in this thread's poll understood implicitly that they were going to get square pixels on their modern TVs, and that didn't bother them one bit. Sure doesn't bother me.

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32 minutes ago, SegaSnatcher said:

Not to mention Sega Genesis consoles have native RGB output as well, so the whole "This is how you were supposed to play these games" is totally subjective.

Yeah, I was going to say that, especially since they say they are in Europe which I thought had RGB capable consumer tvs... but that's a whole other issue.  I assumed from the level of fanatacism over the issue they purposely yanked the RGB wires out of everything they ever had in favor of the glory of composite. 🤷‍♂️

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12 hours ago, ErebusMaligan said:

Yeah, I was going to say that, especially since they say they are in Europe which I thought had RGB capable consumer tvs... but that's a whole other issue.  I assumed from the level of fanatacism over the issue they purposely yanked the RGB wires out of everything they ever had in favor of the glory of composite. 🤷‍♂️

Of course we had RGB compatible TVs here in the 80s. I had my Commodore Amiga compuer connected via SCART, which is great for TV-computers, and it looked fantastic. But Commodore Amiga developers didn't code their games and programs to make massive use of pixel blending, while MegaDrive developers did: good luck enjoying Earthworm Jim without pixel blending, or even Story of Thor (look at the intro, no need to go further in the game).

 

This is very simple: Many major titles look BAD on the MegaSG because of the lack of proper pixel blending. And they look great on the MiSTer because it's core has proper pixel blending. That's not MiSTer advertising: it's reality. In fact, I would prefer things to be the opposite: I would prefer MegaSG doing it right instead of MiSTer, because I would be able to fix the MiSTer core. I am using the MiSTer here as an example of how it could be done very easily, that's all.

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6 hours ago, vanfanel said:

Of course we had RGB compatible TVs here in the 80s. I had my Commodore Amiga compuer connected via SCART, which is great for TV-computers, and it looked fantastic. But Commodore Amiga developers didn't code their games and programs to make massive use of pixel blending, while MegaDrive developers did: good luck enjoying Earthworm Jim without pixel blending, or even Story of Thor (look at the intro, no need to go further in the game).

 

This is very simple: Many major titles look BAD on the MegaSG because of the lack of proper pixel blending. And they look great on the MiSTer because it's core has proper pixel blending. That's not MiSTer advertising: it's reality. In fact, I would prefer things to be the opposite: I would prefer MegaSG doing it right instead of MiSTer, because I would be able to fix the MiSTer core. I am using the MiSTer here as an example of how it could be done very easily, that's all.

I enjoy Megadrive games just fine without using pixel blending...  I wouldn't use it anyway, I don't like an artificially softened image.  I don't know why some get so triggered by dithering.

 

It's odd in a world full of flatscreen tv's, upscalers, line doublers, flash carts, ODEs, software emulation, and fpga cores, etc that some still cling to blurry colors like it's critical to the experience.

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The most instresting is the 100% reworked NES core.

Thought Kevtris have tuned the old NES core since 2005 or something, maybe he started from scratch and proceeded like he did SNES and Mega Drive.

 

And the composite refinement, thought the current composite on the NtM was 100% to the original NES with its flaws and everything. What is improved there?

 

The dual output is really cool! Glad I ordered one despite havin the original NtM.

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The most instresting is the 100% reworked NES core.
Thought Kevtris have tuned the old NES core since 2005 or something, maybe he started from scratch and proceeded like he did SNES and Mega Drive.
 
And the composite refinement, thought the current composite on the NtM was 100% to the original NES with its flaws and everything. What is improved there?
 
The dual output is really cool! Glad I ordered one despite havin the original NtM.
It sounds like you are talking about news that hasn't been linked or discussed in this thread yet. Link?

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7 hours ago, vanfanel said:

This is very simple: Many major titles look BAD on the MegaSG because of the lack of proper pixel blending. And they look great on the MiSTer because it's core has proper pixel blending. That's not MiSTer advertising: it's reality. In fact, I would prefer things to be the opposite: I would prefer MegaSG doing it right instead of MiSTer, because I would be able to fix the MiSTer core. I am using the MiSTer here as an example of how it could be done very easily, that's all.


For genesis, MiSter has the "Composite Blend - ADAPTIVE" setting which I think works well. MegaSG has the Dither Blending setting with the slider which I think works pretty ok. They both seem fine to me. Anyway if you shove em onto a CRT it works as expected anyway :)

 

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8 hours ago, vanfanel said:

Of course we had RGB compatible TVs here in the 80s. I had my Commodore Amiga compuer connected via SCART, which is great for TV-computers, and it looked fantastic. But Commodore Amiga developers didn't code their games and programs to make massive use of pixel blending, while MegaDrive developers did: good luck enjoying Earthworm Jim without pixel blending, or even Story of Thor (look at the intro, no need to go further in the game).

 

This is very simple: Many major titles look BAD on the MegaSG because of the lack of proper pixel blending. And they look great on the MiSTer because it's core has proper pixel blending. That's not MiSTer advertising: it's reality. In fact, I would prefer things to be the opposite: I would prefer MegaSG doing it right instead of MiSTer, because I would be able to fix the MiSTer core. I am using the MiSTer here as an example of how it could be done very easily, that's all.

I have no problems playing EWJ or any Genesis games that made use of pixel blending without the blending feature.   I never turn it on via MiSTer, nor do I use the blending feature on Mega SG.

Also, it's not objective reality, it's your reality based on your personal preference.   You just don't seem to understand that people have different tastes and not everyone cares if the colors don't blend.  

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47 minutes ago, CZroe said:
1 hour ago, atmn said:
The most instresting is the 100% reworked NES core.
Thought Kevtris have tuned the old NES core since 2005 or something, maybe he started from scratch and proceeded like he did SNES and Mega Drive.
 
And the composite refinement, thought the current composite on the NtM was 100% to the original NES with its flaws and everything. What is improved there?
 
The dual output is really cool! Glad I ordered one despite havin the original NtM.

It sounds like you are talking about news that hasn't been linked or discussed in this thread yet. Link?

Sorry, I was refering to this twitter post.

 

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Sorry, I was refering to this twitter post.

 

That's huge! Kind of upsetting at the same time... only reason I didn't preorder one is because we were told it was the same except for the cartridge slot and I didn't want to spend that much on something without horizontal interpolation for non-integer scaling.

 

That said, this kinda hints that there will be a plastic one, considering that Nt Mini Noir was announced as limited product and I strongly doubt they would do all this for only limited preordered units.

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4 minutes ago, atmn said:

Sorry, I was refering to this twitter post.

 

Yet another example of Analogue's customer service failing!  During the pre-orders I was debating if it's worth i upgrading from my NT Mini & Analogue wouldn't give any details.  Of course I didn't pre-order & now I can't.

Just don't understand why it would have been so hard to let us know the details, other than a new & improved cartridge slot.

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