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kevtris

FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

667 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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1 hour ago, ErebusMaligan said:

He's been told this by multiple people many times.  At this point it's moved from being passionate about it, to just trolling.  Not because of the insistence that it should be an option that works a certain way... but for constantly berating anyone that doesn't prefer the look.

 

I grew up playing genesis over rf... it's ugly (just like anything else over rf), I don't prefer the smeared vaseline look, regardless of what the intent of the developers was.

Personal preferences are fine.

 

His beef is legitimate. His personal preference is to see the game as it was originally designed to be presented back in the day. Currently the system does not give him that option.


Analog aims for accurately capturing the original console behavior and experience. In this way he feels (and I agree) it falls short of fully doing so.
 

I would also really like to see a full screen soft crt option for all the analog consoles similar to the mister.

 

Since none of that was ever promised by Analog, I won’t hold it against them if they never add it. But I’d still love to have it.

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4 hours ago, ErebusMaligan said:

regardless of what the intent of the developers was.

And that's why the option for unselective pixel blending should be there.

There's something called "art", and videogame graphists were, in fact, artists.

Preservation is also about "letting the art to be looked at, as exactly as possible to what the artist that created it wanted it to look".

 

Other than that, what's wrong with you? I am asking for an option that is absolutely reasonable (the original developers intended to look the games as I say, and from the artistic point of view that how they must look like). It will be an option, you don't even have to use it.

 

Indeed, while I could make the damn option to work as intended on an opensource development as the MiSTer, in the forum for these closed source solutions all I get is emulation kids... How I hate all this. I hope I never got any of these half-baked Analogue things in the first place.

The only thing that makes me come here and try to get things fixed after years is that I feel like an idiot because I put money on something that isn't half as good as the opensource alternatives that came after it. In the end, I may well end up selling the Analogue crap so I don't have to try again.

You even swallow broken scrolls in Master System games... pff.

 

About trolling: no, I am not trolling. I am a legitimate user expressing legitimate indignation. Something that, in certain parts of the world where consumerism has sucked people's brains, must look like a sin. But it's perfectly logical.

Edited by vanfanel
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2 hours ago, vanfanel said:

About trolling: no, I am not trolling. I am a legitimate user expressing legitimate indignation. Something that, in certain parts of the world where consumerism has sucked people's brains, must look like a sin. But it's perfectly logical.

As stated many times before.  I don't think anybody is taking umbrage with the idea that this would be a nice option to have for those that want it.  I'd personally never use it, but for those that want it, i'd be all for it.

 

It's this nonsense:

 

all I get is emulation kids...

and from the artistic point of view that how they must look like

 

 

A)  Not everyone plays games for either "preservation" or nostalgia.  I don't care about either of these things, so the games don't have to look any particular way that they looked 20 or 30 years ago.  That is not important to me even remotely.

 

B) Not everyone who doesn't share your preference is an "emulation kid" whatever the hell that means.  First... there is nothing wrong with emulation if that is what people prefer.  Secondly, as many have stated we did in fact grow up playing these games on original hardware, this particular issue just isn't important to us, or at least not as important as it is to you. 

 

It's ok for other people to have a different preference for how these games look, than you do.  It doesn't make them the philistines that you seem to be implying, the way you use emulation as a slur.

 

Personally i've seen all the arguments about dither blending in old games.  I'm willing to concede that some developers used it to their advantage, and may have intended the image to be seen with it.  I still think it's ugly and don't prefer it.  Sharp dithering looks preferable to me. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

 

Edited by ErebusMaligan
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12 hours ago, vanfanel said:

Pixel blending *is* broken.

 

Did you even play a MegaDrive via RF or RCA back in the day? Did you? Really? I suspect you know MegaDrive from software emulation and just got a MegaSG.

Yes, I did.

 

Your attitude won't get you anywhere except my ignore list.

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13 minutes ago, ErebusMaligan said:

As stated many times before.  I don't think anybody is taking umbrage with the idea that this would be a nice option to have for those that want it.  I'd personally never use it, but for those that want it, i'd be all for it.

 

It's this nonsense:

 

all I get is emulation kids...

and from the artistic point of view that how they must look like

 

 

A)  Not everyone plays games for either "preservation" or nostalgia.  I don't care about either of these things, so the games don't have to look any particular way that they looked 20 or 30 years ago.  That is not important to me even remotely.

 

B) Not everyone who doesn't share your preference is an "emulation kid" whatever the hell that means.  First... there is nothing wrong with emulation if that is what people prefer.  Secondly, as many have stated we did in fact grow up playing these games on original hardware, this particular issue just isn't important to us, or at least not as important as it is to you. 

 

It's ok for other people to have a different preference for how these games look, than you do.  It doesn't make them the philistines that you seem to be implying, the way you use emulation as a slur.

 

Personally i've seen all the arguments about dither blending in old games.  I'm willing to concede that some developers used it to their advantage, and may have intended the image to be seen with it.  I still think it's ugly and don't prefer it.  Sharp dithering looks preferable to me. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

 

Now, this is reasoning. Nice answer, thanks.

 

Let's see. You say "Not everyone plays games for preservation". Nope, but Analogue claims that their products are a way of preservation.

Note that it can be seen in their old page at least (I don't visit Analogue page anymore, and preservation has an actual meaning in public projects where hardware is actually preserved by being reimplemented in a public form).

 

Now, dithering+proper blending was used by many devs to their advantage, as you said. But not small developers, but SEGA itself: look at Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Streets of Rage 2, Ristar, Story of Thor, and a long, looooong list of Megadrive games.

Use of dithering + blending on the Megadrive was massive. We're not talking about the SNES here, where it wasn't used so heavily: dithering + blending was a Megadrive typical trick, and ignoring it (even if you are free to do so) visually ruins the games in my opinion (and not only on my opinion).

 

@Atariboy I have nothing to discuss with you anymore, so I don't mind being in your ignore list.

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4 hours ago, vanfanel said:

Now, this is reasoning. Nice answer, thanks.

 

Let's see. You say "Not everyone plays games for preservation". Nope, but Analogue claims that their products are a way of preservation.

Note that it can be seen in their old page at least (I don't visit Analogue page anymore, and preservation has an actual meaning in public projects where hardware is actually preserved by being reimplemented in a public form).

 

Now, dithering+proper blending was used by many devs to their advantage, as you said. But not small developers, but SEGA itself: look at Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Streets of Rage 2, Ristar, Story of Thor, and a long, looooong list of Megadrive games.

Use of dithering + blending on the Megadrive was massive. We're not talking about the SNES here, where it wasn't used so heavily: dithering + blending was a Megadrive typical trick, and ignoring it (even if you are free to do so) visually ruins the games in my opinion (and not only on my opinion).

 

@Atariboy I have nothing to discuss with you anymore, so I don't mind being in your ignore list.

It's also a fact that RGB cables that provided a sharp picture have been available for the MD from the time it was released and it was designed from the get go to utilize them.  Hell, in France RGB would have been the only way to display a MD on a TV, so their baseline of normal would be very different from yours, are they idiots?  Just as many developers didn't use dithering or account for it when creating games for the MD.  On top of that, dithering was used all over the PC and home computer world where blurry displays were not a thing.  The level of anger I'm sensing from your posts here is unhealthy.  

 

And yes, I did grow up in the 90s and 00s playing games over RF and composite.  I don't want to go back to that.

Edited by zetastrike
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@zetastrike I am not talking about going back to RF, but simply correct pixel blending (again, optional: it wouldn't be forced!). I started with RF connections on my consoles, and I don't want to go back there, either. But there's no advantage in RF over RCA, while there is a certainly advantage in (again, optional) un-selective pixel blending.

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9 hours ago, ErebusMaligan said:

As stated many times before.  I don't think anybody is taking umbrage with the idea that this would be a nice option to have for those that want it.  I'd personally never use it, but for those that want it, i'd be all for it.

 

It's this nonsense:

 

all I get is emulation kids...

and from the artistic point of view that how they must look like

 

 

A)  Not everyone plays games for either "preservation" or nostalgia.  I don't care about either of these things, so the games don't have to look any particular way that they looked 20 or 30 years ago.  That is not important to me even remotely.

 

B) Not everyone who doesn't share your preference is an "emulation kid" whatever the hell that means.  First... there is nothing wrong with emulation if that is what people prefer.  Secondly, as many have stated we did in fact grow up playing these games on original hardware, this particular issue just isn't important to us, or at least not as important as it is to you. 

 

It's ok for other people to have a different preference for how these games look, than you do.  It doesn't make them the philistines that you seem to be implying, the way you use emulation as a slur.

 

Personally i've seen all the arguments about dither blending in old games.  I'm willing to concede that some developers used it to their advantage, and may have intended the image to be seen with it.  I still think it's ugly and don't prefer it.  Sharp dithering looks preferable to me. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

 

I agree with your sentiment.

 

Personal attacks and condescension are never helpful to ones argument.

 

I don’t want to assume I know Vanfanel’s mind and motivations so I will speak for myself here.

 

I know for myself. I want to preserve the original experience and look to the extent possible. Minus slowdown and flicker.

 

It’s frustrating to be told to be quiet and get over it because other folks are okay with “close enough” or “good enough”.

 

It makes sense those folks don’t want to keep discussing the matter. They already have what they want.

 

The problem with staying quiet about it is the company won’t see a desire or demand to go the extra mile and if they are smart, they aren’t wasting time on things that aren’t significantly important to their target customer base.

 

So being vocal is a way ensure there is some chatter out there indicating interest and demand.

 

This sort of thing has influenced many companies and products in the past. If done in high enough volumes and broadly enough it can make a difference and many more people can be happy.

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2 hours ago, vanfanel said:

@zetastrike I am not talking about going back to RF, but simply correct pixel blending (again, optional: it wouldn't be forced!). I started with RF connections on my consoles, and I don't want to go back there, either. But there's no advantage in RF over RCA, while there is a certainly advantage in (again, optional) un-selective pixel blending.

Here's a hot take. I've contacted Kevtris and asked him to avoid putting this feature in. He said he was about to add it to the next update, but since I asked him politely to hold off he is going to. 

 

My reason for doing so? You, just you.

 

I enjoy your repeated posts about how unhappy you are about this and your repeated threats to sell off your Analogue devices and move on, but you never do....

 

"The only thing that makes me come here and try to get things fixed after years is that I feel like an idiot because I put money on something that isn't half as good as the opensource alternatives that came after it. In the end, I may well end up selling the Analogue crap so I don't have to try again."

 

I want to see more!  :)

Edited by XtraSmiley
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What amazes me is that I share his opinion on the lack of post release support to provide the final polishing that their products need to fully fulfill their promises, but still got treated like dirt by him.

 

All because I don't think the pixel blending method that the Mega Sg provides is broken as he claims, but rather is just a different direction than what he desires (Which is all I ever intended with my comment towards him; His desire is for an optional feature to be provided, which I believe is and should always be a lower priority than getting broken games actually playable on a console that was marketed as 100% compatible with Sega's 8 and 16-bit libraries).

Edited by Atariboy
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4 hours ago, dashv said:

It’s frustrating to be told to be quiet and get over it because other folks are okay with “close enough” or “good enough”.

 

It makes sense those folks don’t want to keep discussing the matter. They already have what they want.

 

The problem with staying quiet about it is the company won’t see a desire or demand to go the extra mile and if they are smart, they aren’t wasting time on things that aren’t significantly important to their target customer base.

 

So being vocal is a way ensure there is some chatter out there indicating interest and demand.

 

This sort of thing has influenced many companies and products in the past. If done in high enough volumes and broadly enough it can make a difference and many more people can be happy.

See, but I don't think anyone necessarily disagrees with any of this.  It's just the unnecessary vitriol and misdirected hatred toward those that don't share this one particular preference, that has turned people against Vanfanel.  If they had just said:

 

"I really wish feature X would be fixed, as far as I'm concerned it still isn't working right." and left it at that, I don't think they would get much if any push back from anyone.  Who wouldn't want features to be implemented/fixed/optimized?  It's the attacks and questioning of everyone's original hardware credibility with the constant "emulation kids" and "have you even ever played a genesis over RCA/RF??!?!?" that really lost people.

 

I agree that analogue needs to do a better job of supporting their products, and not just chase the next shiny object...

I have been critical of their shipping, their scarcity issues, and their lack of listening to customers in the past.

 

I also accept the reality of their farily niche business, and the fact that I'm not aware of the exact specifics of how much revenue they need to keep coming in to keep them afloat.

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9 hours ago, zetastrike said:

On top of that, dithering was used all over the PC and home computer world where blurry displays were not a thing.  The level of anger I'm sensing from your posts here is unhealthy.  

 

Yeah, mostly a PC gamer from the early 90s through today... I think this is why dithering doesn't bother me at all.

 

And doubly agree with that last sentence... really wanting a feature is one thing. Spitting venom at everyone else, even those who might agree with you, for just not being hardcore enough is pretty unhealthy.

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4 hours ago, XtraSmiley said:

Here's a hot take. I've contacted Kevtris and asked him to avoid putting this feature in. He said he was about to add it to the next update, but since I asked him politely to hold off he is going to. 

 

My reason for doing so? You, just you.

 

I enjoy your repeated posts about how unhappy you are about this and your repeated threats to sell off your Analogue devices and move on, but you never do....

 

"The only thing that makes me come here and try to get things fixed after years is that I feel like an idiot because I put money on something that isn't half as good as the opensource alternatives that came after it. In the end, I may well end up selling the Analogue crap so I don't have to try again."

 

I want to see more!  :)

That's incredibly stupid on your side (if you really did that) because I am already enjoying perfect un-selective pixel blending on the MiSTer since last year or so.

My Analogue products (both SuperNT and MegaSG) are simply stored because the MiSTer gives me way better results (no tearing in Master System games, perfect pixel blending + scanlines, all special chips implemented on the SNES and no incompatibilities).

 

I am simply indignated by the fact that I believed on a company that promised accuracy but gave us... bugs, incomplete features and incompatibilities.

 

So, good for you if you convinced Kevtris to hold off and never add proper pixel blending.

 

Please, try to convince him against fixing scrolling on Master System games! I have also reported that repeatedly.

 

Do you know who will be missing the unselective pixel blending feature? You.

 

Do you know who is already enjoying that feature on way a better, public FPGA core that also has SVP and MegaCD support? Me.

 

In fact, you are helping me a lot here, since ultimately I don't want any private cores anymore, and by keeping Analogue cores in an inferior state than then public ones, you are building a better future for us all (even if that means my Analogue machines will never come out of storage again: the good of the many outweighs the good of the few) :)

Edited by vanfanel
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At least Sega CD works via Mega Everdrive Pro, including a few of the problem games that wouldn't work on the latest firmware with the Sega CD model 2, on Mega SD using the Sega CD 1 bios. Too bad I'm without a CRT currently so I can't play Lethal Enforcers in S-Video with the DAC until I move back in to the house (tornado knocked a tree into the back of the house). 

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I'm obviously joking. I doubt Kevtris gives a crap what I think! Although he did help me a few years ago before he got super busy with my Hi-Def NES and he seems pretty nice and helpful!

 

So, you're locking up your Analogue products? Why not sell them so others can enjoy them and you can get some money back. Probably more money than you spent on them!

 

I'm not sure if it's a language issue or if a maturity one, but you are pretty much the definition of a troll. Maybe this is what you wanted all along?

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11 hours ago, BrianC said:

At least Sega CD works via Mega Everdrive Pro, including a few of the problem games that wouldn't work on the latest firmware with the Sega CD model 2, on Mega SD using the Sega CD 1 bios. Too bad I'm without a CRT currently so I can't play Lethal Enforcers in S-Video with the DAC until I move back in to the house (tornado knocked a tree into the back of the house). 

Dude!? That’s crazy (tree on house). Hope everyone is ok.

 

I need to get around to trying Sega CD games with my Mega SD.

 

Also, pardon my ignorance. But what is the Analog DAC, what does it do?

 

I went to the analog page and just see an add to cart but no actual description.

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52 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

I'm obviously joking. I doubt Kevtris gives a crap what I think! Although he did help me a few years ago before he got super busy with my Hi-Def NES and he seems pretty nice and helpful!

 

So, you're locking up your Analogue products? Why not sell them so others can enjoy them and you can get some money back. Probably more money than you spent on them!

 

I'm not sure if it's a language issue or if a maturity one, but you are pretty much the definition of a troll. Maybe this is what you wanted all along?

Nah, I am not trolling (which is probably worse!), at least not intentionally.

The strange language I may exhibit is caused by the fact that I am not a native english speaker.

I am serious about feeling really offended by Analogue about being promised accuracy and getting this sh*t instead:

 

-No graphical accuracy because of the lack of proper pixel blending, which makes games to look totally different from what they look on my MegaDrive (yet it's an EASY fix I would do if this thing was opensouce... and that's why opensource solutions will destroy Analogue's FPGA business unless they go opensource too. In fact, since opensource and public implementations exist and they are mature, Analogue IPs don't have any real value anymore so they are protecting... nothing).

 

-Even worse: tearing in Master System games.

 

-Broken FM audio in Master System games (I don't think it's so hard to do well, because Master System FM sounds great on the MiSTer and it's open source, so correctness is public).

 

Luckily the MiSTer gives me all that right, but I got the MegaSG before the MiSTer and never really enjoyed it much. It makes me sorry for the money I spent on these products.

Now, with the MiSTer, I feel the time for the MegaSG has passed for me, but I would like to see things done right "for greater justice".

 

About selling my Analogue products: No way.

I could:

-Sell them for a higher price, but that's speculation and I am against it for ideological reasons.

-Sell them for the same price I paid, which could lead to speculation, too, and I am NOT contributing to that.

 

So I am probably giving them away (to close friends/familiars who won't sell them) or destroy/recycle them. But you can be sure they won't be on any market again.

I call speculators "rats": I won't feed any rats. EVER.

Edited by vanfanel

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Yeah, my mom's room was completely destroyed (thankfully we weren't home at the time), but we're all ok. Most of the other rooms were intact, but there was some water damage and the roof needed to be replaced. House is currently being repaired and they started on the roof. 

 

DAC is a digital analog converter. It lets you use the Mega SG on a CRT. I used an adapter for S-Video. I tried composite, but it has a terrible rainbow effect. Looks nice in S-Video, though. 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/26/2020 at 6:20 PM, Toth said:

So is fedex like being a middle man for those fees? Like they pay the government or something?  Is there a fee schedule that you can look at to calculate those kinds of charges before buying something?  That seems really high.

At least the last time I had to deal with customs, FedEx is the middle man if they are handling shipping. To import the package, FedEx deals with customs at the port of entry, and then reaches out to the receiver if customs imposes tariffs. 

 

But yes, 50% tariffs seem extreme. I wonder how much of this might be mistakes/confusion related to the changes in the UK import scheme due to leaving the EU? The changeover is due at the end of the year, so I wonder if the training for the customs agents is getting messed up somewhere.

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On 11/26/2020 at 12:05 PM, RetrogamerX said:

It's crazy.  This whole year is shit.  I called fed ex and they said some times this happens and there is nothing they could do.  If i didn't pay it I wouldn't get my nt mini so I paid it.  I was in shock how much they wanted at first.  My sister lives in Minnesota, but I don't like to bother her, but after this shit show I might ask her if I ever do buy from the states again.  If this was anything else other then a nt mini I wouldn't have paid and got a refund, but I so want my nt mini noir.  

I find this scenario especially disturbing, as many other vendors and sites tend to handle customs so customers don't need to. I've ordered many things from the UK and other parts of Europe and never had any issue. So either Analogue is dropping the ball with shipping (an area which generally has appeared to be an issue for some time) or the UK is doing something dodgy with the importing, as half the cost of the product really is fishy and reeks of corruption.

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I find this scenario especially disturbing, as many other vendors and sites tend to handle customs so customers don't need to. I've ordered many things from the UK and other parts of Europe and never had any issue. So either Analogue is dropping the ball with shipping (an area which generally has appeared to be an issue for some time) or the UK is doing something dodgy with the importing, as half the cost of the product really is fishy and reeks of corruption.
The EU requires EU members to list prices with VAT included. This does not apply to vendors in other countries, thought the VAT must still be paid. The USA generally does not charge import taxes on imports under something like $600, though you are probably expected to pay it when filing yearly income taxes.
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1 hour ago, blzmarcel said:

I find this scenario especially disturbing, as many other vendors and sites tend to handle customs so customers don't need to. I've ordered many things from the UK and other parts of Europe and never had any issue. So either Analogue is dropping the ball with shipping (an area which generally has appeared to be an issue for some time) or the UK is doing something dodgy with the importing, as half the cost of the product really is fishy and reeks of corruption.

 

My last analogue console I bought Mega sg I had to pay £75 custom charge.  £201 was taking it too far.  I also bought a t-shirt from the US a couple weeks ago and custom charged me £15.  That was nearly the cost the the t-shirt.  UK customs are *****.  I'm done buying anything else over the pond.   

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If I am using an Nt Mini hooked up directly to a CRT I don't need to worry or care about the buffer options right?  I don't think I do but just want to make sure, LOL.  It defaults to fully buffered.  It doesn't feel like there is any delay or lag so I am pretty sure it only affects the HDMI output.

Edited by Toth

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On 11/28/2020 at 9:44 PM, dashv said:

 

I would also really like to see a full screen soft crt option for all the analog consoles similar to the mister.

 

 

I'd rather not. Even if seeing square, clean, pixels was not the developers intended way of seeing the game, adding scanlines, blurring or barrel warping is not what everyone remembers. Heck I played the NT Mini Noir today (88$ import fees, good god) with my vintage SMB3 cart, and two things didn't seem right:

 

1. The audio sounds... worse? I have the vintage NES here as well, but maybe I'm just remembering the audio having more bass because when I played it in 1991 or so it was always sent through the stereo with the 12" woofers.

2. There's a lot of visual artifacting that I don't recall being a thing on the vintage console either, let alone 1991. 

 

I don't have that many real carts laying around to test at the moment.

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