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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

657 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...



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The one annoyance I’ve run into so far with nt mini noir is that you can’t save a game when playing from the sd card. I don’t think this would be a problem on the mister. I can see now how the nt mini noir is really meant for those that have original cartridges. Ofcourse it is not much of a problem for older consoles that have cores because they never had save states in the first place.

 

1 point for Keatah.

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40 minutes ago, adamchevy said:

The one annoyance I’ve run into so far with nt mini noir is that you can’t save a game when playing from the sd card.

Uh... yeah you can. Open the file browser.

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7 hours ago, Kaide said:

 

Quality in terms of what? Color? Contrast? Viewing Angles? Motion? Image-Retention? But really there’s nothing between different panel technology that to me says someone should go OLED vs LCD when discussing retro gaming. 

Don't listen to this guy man, IMO OLED is freaking incredible for retro gaming. I use a 65" with my arcade PCBs and have started playing them more on it than my CRTs or cabinets. Color, Contrast, Viewing Angles, Motion, yes they are all better on OLED.

Burn in or image retention was my only concern, but 6 months in (with black bars due to aspect ratio of retro games) and still no signs or damage. I'd say about 1hr a day of gaming on average.

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15 hours ago, Kaide said:

Quality in terms of what? Color? Contrast? Viewing Angles? Motion? Image-Retention? But really there’s nothing between different panel technology that to me says someone should go OLED vs LCD when discussing retro gaming. 

I guess overall.  But wow, reading all that, you seem to know your stuff.  I think your last sentence that I quoted here kinda answers my question in general. 

 

I know that there are QLED and OLED panels out there with good specs all around in terms of input latency, motion blur, etc and I'm eye-balling a couple specific models, namely the Samsung Q80T and the LG CX.  As far as image retention, is it really that bad now-a-day?  I know that's a known thing with OLED but I can't believe it wouldn't be getting better.  

 

13 hours ago, adamchevy said:

It would be great to see support for higher than 60hz and Free/G sync. Although I’m not sure if it would make that much difference for nes games.

I thought the same thing before but it's weird... if you run a NTSC game in PAL mode, vice versa, it messes with the game speed.  I would think... that if we played a game with a native 60.08hz refresh as 120hz, it would run in turbo.  If some technological miracle could prevent that and just allow it to run 120hz and appear smoother, i'd be all over one of the 120hz TVs that have 5ms lag.

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7 hours ago, XtraSmiley said:

Don't listen to this guy man, IMO OLED is freaking incredible for retro gaming. I use a 65" with my arcade PCBs and have started playing them more on it than my CRTs or cabinets. Color, Contrast, Viewing Angles, Motion, yes they are all better on OLED.

Burn in or image retention was my only concern, but 6 months in (with black bars due to aspect ratio of retro games) and still no signs or damage. I'd say about 1hr a day of gaming on average.

To be fair, he said "to him", nothing sticks out.  That's a fair statement.  Some people look at a pair of TVs and don't really notice nor care about all the technical things that many others notice and care about.  

 

I can see 1hr a day and not worrying about burn-in.  I may spend a few hours at a time gaming, so that's a concern to me.  No, I'm not planning on pausing a game and leaving it for hours or anything like that but it's something for me to be cautious of.

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I use an OLED for gaming.  My workload tends to fluctuate a lot, so I don't play games every day... but when I do have some free time I tend to get addicted and will play games on it for 2-3 or even 4 hours a night.  I usually play older games, so that means there are always UI elements on-screen as well as the black bars on the side due to the 4:3 aspect ratio.  I've had no burn-in whatsoever in 2.5 years, so no complaints there.

 

Games look absolutely stunning on an OLED, people I think tend to underestimate or maybe not realize how much an accurate black level contributes to overall image quality (also for movies).  Like @XtraSmiley said, the color, contrast, brightness, motion, it's all amazing.

 

I have a perfectly calibrated Sony PVM monitor/TV in my office I got specifically for playing old console games several years ago, but I haven't touched it since getting my OLED back in 2018.  The OLED TV is just that good.

Edited by newtmonkey
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Also of note - OLEDs tend to degrade the image much less in game mode than other panel types tend to do. Dynamic backlight/local dimming in particular requires some processing and ideally a few frames to look at so low lag mode is problematic for that.

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1 minute ago, RobDangerous said:

Also of note - OLEDs tend to degrade the image much less in game mode than other panel types tend to do. Dynamic backlight/local dimming in particular requires some processing and ideally a few frames to look at so low lag mode is problematic for that.

I think I've heard of this before but never really paid much attention to it.  

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I don't get why any phone I have ever had with an oled screen shows burn in before 2 years is up but a ton of people say there is no burn in on OLED TVs.  How are TVs made differently from phones which have widespread and well known burn in issues?  I am genuinely curious why this happens as my experience with phones is why I have never considered an OLED TV.  Maybe it is the Samsung screens that are the issue?  I think those are the displays I have tended to notice it the earliest.

Edited by Toth

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2 hours ago, Toth said:

I don't get why any phone I have ever had with an oled screen shows burn in before 2 years is up but a ton of people say there is no burn in on OLED TVs.  How are TVs made differently from phones which have widespread and well known burn in issues?  I am genuinely curious why this happens as my experience with phones is why I have never considered an OLED TV.  Maybe it is the Samsung screens that are the issue?  I think those are the displays I have tended to notice it the earliest.

I can't speak for your usage.  I know it's not the screen but my wife, daughter and I all have Iphone 11 pros and they're on theirs constantly and after a year, have decreased battery health while mine still says 100%.  They both say "I'm not on it that much."

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5 hours ago, Mattelot said:

To be fair, he said "to him", nothing sticks out.  That's a fair statement.  Some people look at a pair of TVs and don't really notice nor care about all the technical things that many others notice and care about.  

 

I can see 1hr a day and not worrying about burn-in.  I may spend a few hours at a time gaming, so that's a concern to me.  No, I'm not planning on pausing a game and leaving it for hours or anything like that but it's something for me to be cautious of.

Yeah, but if he can't tell because he doesn't have the ability to see the difference between OLED and LCD why listen to his opinion on it? It's a measurement that is easily done with equipment and many rating sites do it, OLED beats LCD in almost all categories. If YOU can't tell, then YES, save the money on an LCD.

 

1 hr a day or 3 hours every 3 days makes no difference on OLED burn in/retention. It's based on usage of the TV over time. LCDs can get image retention and you turn it off or run another image over it and it can clear up. In OLED, the actual pixels get used up and do not recover. It's added up over time, as in they have a finite amount of use as they degrade.

 

That being said, many modern burn in tests indicate that it's probably not a real worry.

 

I have a C9 for what it's worth. (I also have a Samsung 6 and an older Sharp 70"). The difference for retro gaming is worth it as is for modern games.

 

If cost is a factor, I'm not so sure. I think some of the newer Samsungs are pretty close for a lot less money. To me, if money is no object, OLED, if not, just go to the store and look at them side by side.

Edited by XtraSmiley

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8 minutes ago, XtraSmiley said:

Yeah, but if he can't tell because he doesn't have the ability to see the difference between OLED and LCD why listen to his opinion on it? It's a measurement that is easily done with equipment and many rating sites do it, OLED beats LCD in almost all categories. If YOU can't tell, then YES, save the money on an LCD.

 

1 hr a day or 3 hours every 3 days makes no difference on OLED burn in/retention. It's based on usage of the TV over time. LCDs can get image retention and you turn it off or run another image over it and it can clear up. In OLED, the actual pixels get used up and do not recover. It's added up over time, as in they have a finite amount of use as they degrade.

 

That being said, many modern burn in tests indicate that it's probably not a real worry.

 

I have a C9 for what it's worth. (I also have a Samsung 6 and an older Sharp 70"). The difference for retro gaming is worth it as is for modern games.

 

If cost is a factor, I'm not so sure. I think some of the newer Samsungs are pretty close for a lot less money. To me, if money is no object, OLED, if not, just go to the store and look at them side by side.

Let me word differently.  Maybe he can "tell" but to him, it's not so WOW as it is to others.  There are people who I've talked to who prefer QLED because of the peak brightness.  It's not that they do not understand the benefits of one.  The perks of the other are not enough to tilt the scales for them personally.

 

Me personally, I do like what I see on OLED display models.  The deep blacks and vivid colors are impressive.  Yes, I'm aware that the peak brightness doesn't hold a candle to QLED.  

 

Now, you say that it's usage over time for burn-in.  What about the black bars on the sides from the 4:3 aspect ratio?  Those pixels are not getting used.  Does that mean over time, I'll have a good images on the sides but dimmer in the middle?

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1 minute ago, Mattelot said:

Let me word differently.  Maybe he can "tell" but to him, it's not so WOW as it is to others.  There are people who I've talked to who prefer QLED because of the peak brightness.  It's not that they do not understand the benefits of one.  The perks of the other are not enough to tilt the scales for them personally.

 

Me personally, I do like what I see on OLED display models.  The deep blacks and vivid colors are impressive.  Yes, I'm aware that the peak brightness doesn't hold a candle to QLED.  

 

Now, you say that it's usage over time for burn-in.  What about the black bars on the sides from the 4:3 aspect ratio?  Those pixels are not getting used.  Does that mean over time, I'll have a good images on the sides but dimmer in the middle?

If the difference between blacks and peak brightness is a factor, what does his or even my opinion mean? You need to go see for yourself.

 

IMO peak brightness is stupid. I run my OLED at 60% brightness because any higher and it hurst my eyes when it swings from super dark blacks to super bright scenes, in HDR. That said, I run the screen in a relatively dark room. If you are running it with sunlight on your screen, maybe it's not for you. Room light is a factor to really consider. If your room is dark, peak brightness is not a worry with OLED.

 

the black bars are 100% what I was worried about. I have them at the top and bottom too, due to movie aspect ratios as well as some games I run integer scaled which makes the image smaller.

 

Yes, dimmer in the middle, super bright in the black areas was my #1 worry. 

 

No issues yet! It's only been about 6 months though. There is also a built in sensor that runs after like xxxxhrs of use and dims the pixels to be an even match. Supposedly it works so well you can't tell. I think I'm many hours before this kicks in.

 

I just figure, well, if it's an issue in 3 years or so, I'll just get a new TV!

 

 

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1 minute ago, XtraSmiley said:

If the difference between blacks and peak brightness is a factor, what does his or even my opinion mean? You need to go see for yourself.

 

IMO peak brightness is stupid. I run my OLED at 60% brightness because any higher and it hurst my eyes when it swings from super dark blacks to super bright scenes, in HDR. That said, I run the screen in a relatively dark room. If you are running it with sunlight on your screen, maybe it's not for you. Room light is a factor to really consider. If your room is dark, peak brightness is not a worry with OLED.

 

the black bars are 100% what I was worried about. I have them at the top and bottom too, due to movie aspect ratios as well as some games I run integer scaled which makes the image smaller.

 

Yes, dimmer in the middle, super bright in the black areas was my #1 worry. 

 

No issues yet! It's only been about 6 months though. There is also a built in sensor that runs after like xxxxhrs of use and dims the pixels to be an even match. Supposedly it works so well you can't tell. I think I'm many hours before this kicks in.

 

I just figure, well, if it's an issue in 3 years or so, I'll just get a new TV!

 

 

Your opinions matter to me because you have hands-on experience.  I see so many videos about OLED TVs but you don't see many at all with retro gaming, particularly FPGA retro gaming.  I can go into a store and view what one looks like showing off 4K colorful content but I can't go anywhere and see what a Super NT will look like on it, unfortunately.

 

But thank you for the info on the black bars, that's good to know.  

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[mention=53623]Mattelot[/mention]
 
It's an LG OLED55B7P


I hope they come out with a smaller one that will fit on my desk at work someday soon. Also, it would be nice if it isn’t just for crazy rich Asians.

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1 hour ago, XtraSmiley said:

Yeah, but if he can't tell because he doesn't have the ability to see the difference between OLED and LCD why listen to his opinion on it? It's a measurement that is easily done with equipment and many rating sites do it, OLED beats LCD in almost all categories. If YOU can't tell, then YES, save the money on an LCD.

 

It’s clear you didn’t really read the content of what I was saying, or misunderstand the points I was trying to make. 

 

The core point is that there’s nothing specific about retro gaming that is any different than other uses of a modern TV. So there’s not a whole not of additional texture someone on this forum can add that you can’t find elsewhere. About the only thing that might matter is compatibility with non-standard refresh rates when using an OSSC or something like that. Sadly, nobody really reports on that, so it’s a bit of a lottery there, and wholly depends on the controller used, and has nothing to do with OLED vs LCD. If you use an AV receiver or processor, that’s another link in the chain that can break OSSC/etc, making it even more annoying. 

 

Note that I mentioned that an LG-based OLED will have better viewing angles, hands down has better contrast, and even commented on the faster response times of the panel itself in my comments on motion clarity. And in terms of motion clarity, I think it’s a trade off (and an annoying one to make). And I even mentioned that for things that are 60fps, the OLED pulls ahead IMO. But honestly, sample and hold has been a huge step back from CRTs that we still haven’t solved, and instead apply bandaids to. As for image retention & burn-in, I intentionally used the phrase “image retention”. My set is 3-4 years old, it gets retention. I haven’t had any burn-in. But since LCD-based tech like QLED can suffer DSE (as can OLED) and have a similar effect on the picture, it’s honestly a wash. 

 

The problem with pure measurements in this case is people tend to compare based on those measurements without context, or people wind up ignoring the context of those measurements to make mountains out of ant hills.

 

Color accuracy on average is generally good enough with a few exceptions, and calibration will tend to drag dE low enough that it makes no visible difference. Both the Samsung Q80 and the LG CX both measured at a dE of under 2 out of the box. That’s ideal. Assuming you aren’t running around in a red pushed mode or some other nonsense, that’s a great place to be in. Color gamut/volume is another issue, but so far the differences in gamut between them have generally done a good job keeping pace with each other that I wouldn’t go chasing it in a buying decision (and Rtings reports better color volume on the Samsung Q80 QLED set BTW). So yes, different displays will measure differently, but keep in mind that samples of the same model will vary here, so there’s margins of error to account for when comparing. 

 

There used to be some places that measured motion resolution, but it’s gone away in favor of the easier to measure response time as places are trying to measure more models of TV with fewer resources. It’s an important factor, but it’s not the whole picture. Much like you need to model the human ear to get a better idea of how headphones and speakers work, you need to model the human optic system to get a better idea of how different displays actually present motion to a person, rather than a camera. To be blunt, motion handling of TVs is the place where reviews are honestly terrible. 

 

One of the reasons OLED has such a “wow” factor is because of contrast. Contrast is one of the things the human eye is the best at picking up. And OLED is a clear leader there (but so was Plasma and CRT and look what happened there). So long as the processor isn’t introducing black crush (a problem LG had a while back in early OLED TVs), shadow detail cannot be beat on an OLED. That said, retro games with small palettes aren’t really impacted by that, are they. :)

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20 minutes ago, Kaide said:

So there’s not a whole not of additional texture someone on this forum can add that you can’t find elsewhere.

This is where I mentioned to him that I was casually asking if anyone had experience with OLEDs on retro games, particularly FPGA consoles.  I can go all over the internet and get information on OLEDs... OLEDS and gaming, etc but it's all modern.  

 

There is one video I saw of someone running an NT Mini on an older OLED.  It's something I'm interested in and curious about that I can't find much on.  I figured I'd ask.  Worst case, nobody answers :)

 

There were things like scanlines, which I would have assumed would look awesome on OLED and questions about the pixel degradation with 4.3 aspect ratios that @XtraSmiley went over.

 

While I have on issues dropping $1500-$2000 on a new TV, I just wanted to be sure of some things.  I always do a lot of research before any large purchases so I don't have any unfortunate surprises.

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18 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Did you try the YM3438 busy behaviour option?

 

Didn't see an option like that.  But, I'll check again.  Thank you!

 

Problem is: all the people who bought my genesis homebrew who just want to stick in the game and go.  They'll just assume my work is awful.  I mean,  it IS but I'd rather they put in the time to find out themselves :) 

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5 hours ago, Kaide said:

 

It’s clear you didn’t really read the content of what I was saying, or misunderstand the points I was trying to make. 

Maybe! Sorry!

 

I think to me, and I am no TV expert so take this with a grain of salt the size of the number of times people say "just get a Pi" times 3...

 

The fact that OLED can cut off light per pixel, and retro games have such sharp edges (due to the low resolutions), with the contrast, makes them the best panels visually to run retro games on. It honestly looks like the game is a print out on a glossy piece of paper when I pause and get up close.

 

Yes the brightness, black crush, image retention, and price are the big negatives, but the above brings it all home for me.

 

Scan lines look good too, but based on the game I fluctuate with them being on or off.

 

If you want any specific game shown on an OLED, let me know. I have currently a MiSTer with arcade ROMs loaded and a PS5 and Xbox.

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FPGA retro consoles are where I see the biggest benefit on my OLED, they benefit more from the perfect black handling (just think of all those shoot'em up, they tend to look a bit weird on other screens), the very quick switching of the pixels (LCDs are more smeary with fast motion) and the low input lag with very little image degredation than movies and modern games do.

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4 hours ago, Gemintronic said:

 

Didn't see an option like that.  But, I'll check again.  Thank you!

 

Problem is: all the people who bought my genesis homebrew who just want to stick in the game and go.  They'll just assume my work is awful.  I mean,  it IS but I'd rather they put in the time to find out themselves :) 

Yeah, the YM3438 busy behaviour option isn't in the audio menu. I'm pretty sure it's in the hardware settings menu instead. Not sure if changing this option will help, but it might; it's primarily there to control the music speed in Hellfire, which plays too slowly on YM3438 systems because Sega fixed the problem with the YM2612's busy behaviour when they switched to the YM3438. I'm not 100% sure of the specifics, but apparently Toaplan used the YM2612's busy behaviour error to their advantage to get the music in Hellfire running at the correct speed, so when this was fixed with the YM3438, it broke Hellfire's music... or something like that. There are a few other games that have similar stuff. I think Thunder Force IV does and supposedly Earthworm Jim does as well, but I'm not sure.

 

Basically, try the YM3438 busy behaviour thingy in the Mega Sg's menu. Maybe it will fix it. Maybe it won't. Only one way to find out~

Edited by Steven Pendleton
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On 2/25/2021 at 10:49 AM, vanfanel said:

 

MegaSG shows tearing in SMS scrolling games -> the SMS graphics are objectively broken. It's a fact, it's not opinable, it's a real defect, there's NOTHING to discuss, it's a MATERIAL fact,

and again relativism won't get you anywhere.

 

 

 

I could not reproduce the sms tearing during scrolling in games.  I set up a 1 pixel/frame horizontal scroll and saw no tearing.  what game(s) did you see it in?  also if you feel so strongly about mister, there is a dedicated mister thread.

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