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The STAR FORCE PI - Electronic Tabletop Mini-Arcade


StarForcePilot

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A significant amount, covering their licensing fee we'll need to clear about 40-50k, which needs to be extracted from the rather small profit margin we have already, putting the game on SDcard, in case, artwork - so I still have to calculate how much that would be. But I'm just happy they see merit in the system at all, regardless if we make the stretchgoals :)

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Are you seriously not saying in the Project that you Need to mod the Sanwa Stick to make it fit your case? Or that the measurements of the case will Change quite a bit?

 

Also the funding Goal is just broken. If you sell 1000 Units they're comming without the front end, and only if you sell 1100 People will get the Software to actually make this a plug and Play System?

 

The worse is the 4:3 240p bullshit. What's the actual Resolution and aspect Ratio of the Screen? You can't have the spec of the console be non native Resolution. Tell People what the Hardware is, not where you set your Software Resolution and scaling. Do you even have "Pixel perfect" scaling? (4,9, 16 etc.. Pixels making each Pixel in the Image)?

 

Considering the interest you've raised around here I doubt you'll actually fund this with those Goals, but you're being plain dishonest in your Project's description.

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The SANWA stick and generic joystick both have the same dimensions, and will fit into the designed case, which will perhaps alter by a few centimeters from the prototype. We can't say how much this will be as we have only made a prototype with finite dimensions, and therefor needed modding. We're not sending people a complete system, with a joystick on the side of course.

 

PiPlay and EmulationStation will make an optimized version of their frontend in collaboration, these images will be downloadable from an online source, for free. The stretchgoals will simply mean that we put a frontend on an SD card and bundle it with a system.

 

As for the 'bullshit' and 'dishonest' statement: It is not being dishonest to broadly elaborate on a fun project without overanalyzing the minutea of technical details on the Kickstarter page. We're happy to discuss these on forums, twitter, and facebook, where exact specifications are a little more appreciated.

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What a view on Kickstarter.

 

"The SANWA stick and generic joystick both have the same dimensions, and will fit into the designed case, which will perhaps alter by a few centimeters from the prototype."

 

By "fit" you mean modified? because I'm pretty sure People would like to know that. Also, even if it's a Sanwa JLF it will in due time Need replacement parts or to be swapped entirely. You want to have this design where People Need to cut out parts of the Stick and take of the metal attachment plate (which changes the geometry of the stick) it's your call. But at least let People know. It's easy to Claim authentic arcade experience wihout compromise and then deliver a stick that's stitting higher than it was designed to be played at.

 

Do you understand there's really crappy artifacting involved in playing games outside of the native Resolution? It's interesting you saying "overanalyzing", when you yourself go through the Trouble of specifying the Resolution the games "run" on. It People don't want to overanalyze resolutions why mention it? Oh yeah, because People actually care about it. But you mention a Resolution that doesn't really exist in the System?

 

Even the aspect Ratio of the Screen is only mentioned in one Image and appears mostly as "set to 4:3".

 

Just tell people the actual specs on the System clearly. That's the very least you have to do on a crowdfunding campaign.

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Bill: Cheers bill, much appreciated! The time includes a little bit of 'calamity buffering', for unforseen circumstances. But if we're finished sooner, we will of course ship them out sooner :)

 

Keatah: I really would like to take some of the first cases and build a GBA or TurboGrafX into it, I bet it would be doable with some youtube tutorials and elbow grease :P.

 

Leo, we will explore how to fit the SANWA stick and generic joystick unmodified into the case. This would only benefit our system, as it makes assembly systematic and easy, not to mention painless to replace for customers. Our prototypes had a finite size, and therefore we had to make alterations to finish the systems as a proof of concept as required by Kickstarter, but it is not the final product as you can appreciate. The geometry of the system will not be the same as a true arcade system regardless due to the size, but we try to approximate this as best we can. ‘Kinda authentic but not quite’ doesn’t show much confidence when presenting the system, and for anyone but the hardcore arcade gamer, we tentatively hope the experience will be authentic enough: not as good as original hardware, better than other emulation systems.

 

We have a screen on which we have tested this system and built the prototype around, but this may not be the screen we will use in the end; if we can get a better quality screen for the same money, we will go for this. Current emulation tests in 16:9 with Mame4All and PSX do not show tearing or blatant artifacts, though some washed out color, but the engineer will examine this closely and find the best compromise within the system’s budget. The only things we are in fact certain about is that we want to output the video in 320x240 and in 4:3 ratio (within some rough screen dimensions) that will work nicely behind the magnified window. And that is attainable according to Hartmut Wendt (our engineer) and the people of EmulationStation & PiPlay. The ‘actual’ specs are dependent on volume and are in flux until the end of the campaign, which we touch upon under Risks and Challenges.

 

Being unable to commit to hardline specs just yet doesn’t mean we’re dishonest, it simply means this is an unfinished product we hope to build with the support of backers that see merit in the early working prototypes.

Edited by StarForcePilot
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One might consider to sell it as a kit for people who own a Raspberry Pi, to bring down costs.

 

However, the Pi changes models quite often. You'll never know it it'll fit. I'd love to have one. But $200 might be a bit much for some people for a gadget that only really shines if one downloads illegal ROMs.

 

And then there is that Mame problem: the Pi version of Mame (mame4all) only supports the old style roms if I'm not mistaken. I currently retro-game on a Pi w/ Retropie on it and the Mame version on that one requires me to use the ROMs that I have on CD-ROM from a long, long time ago (i.e. mame4all for the Dingoo (R.I.P.)). I do not know where to download Mame roms now-a-days for the 0.34 version of mame...

 

Anyway, good luck with this beautiful machine! :) For the record: my 12 year old nephew loves classic games too. You can play them for a few minutes instead of on-line shooters or on-line FIFA soccer. And you can compare something like "scores". A single number that's easily and quickly comparable w/ the result that your parent achieve. But my nephew may be the only kid who likes sprites as well as polygons. Most kids'll like the 3D extravaganza. And I can't blame them completely...

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"Being unable to commit to hardline specs just yet doesn’t mean we’re dishonest, it simply means this is an unfinished product we hope to build with the support of backers that see merit in the early working prototypes."

 

Retro VGS got a ton of crap for this attitude. People don't really care about this starforce pi Thing, so yeah, they don't care. Basically you're kickstarting the Shell moulding for a System you "prototyped" out of modding something that already existed, and just threw it on Kickstarter because spending the 50k yourself is obviously not the way to go. I'll repeat: Your "prototype" is comprised of 100% off the shelf or pre-existing parts.

 

It's also not the way to go just doing it 3D printed in smaller ammounts, or do like everyone else, and make it out of Wood or something else reasonable you don't have to kickstart, and just sell it.

 

Sorry. I don't think you're dishonest. But you're showing people Images of a prototype that won't be the final product. You don't even know how the final product is going to be. But sure, with 200k euros you'll figure that out somehow. Again. Not necessarily dishonest, but still pisses me off to see how lightly People take crowdfunding. You KNOW the final product isn't going to be what you're showing. Shouldn't you figure out how it's going to look like before putting up the 3d renders and the Project? Specially considering the Shell is the ony Thing you're actually doing, shouldn'Ät you go through the Trouble of having at least that finished?

 

It still boggles my mind People don't care how poorly space is used in this design, and how uncomfortable it is to Play on such a design that has no place to put your Hands on. Now if you want to fit the sanwa unmodded you'll Need to make the case higher, and it will make it even more uncomfortable to Play, because you won't be able to use a table or your lap to rest your Hands on. To fix that you'd Need to increase the platform for the controlls making place for People to rest their Hands on, but at that Point the design will be completely different to what you're showing.

 

Also you're saying, and you wrote that very well in the Kickstarter, that depending on parts availability components may vary. So the Screen might be great or might be crap. The Speakers might be ok, but might be crap. etc.. I mean, we don't even know how fit and finish is going to be, but for 55 bucks a Piece just for the Shell and lens it shouldn't be a Problem. Again. Amazing People throw Money at a Project and don't even know what half the parts are going to be like at all.

 

Your design Looks cool, but it's so broken. You should have gone through the Trouble of buying yourself a used full sanwa parts arcade stick from MAdcatz or Hori and Play that for a bit before bringing "the authentic portable arcade experience" to kickstarter. Maybe after that you might realyze the actual compromise you're doing.

 

It's still beyond me why you picked the sanwa and not the seimitsu stick, being the seimitsu the stick that's found in SNK arcade machines and home consoles. That's your best compatibility. The sanwa JLF is pretty much specialized in fighting games, Why would you want that? I can't believe you can't find someone to sell you seimitsu sticks in France. But again, "that will do".

 

Hopefully you guys will find this 480p Screen that will allow for Pixel perfect reprodution of the Images. It's certainly not the most common out there. Or you just get whatever you can, and scale it Pixel perfect and have borders all around. Still doesn't Sound to me like the most authentic arcade playback, but yeah. It's doable. ANYTHING can do that. Any tablet, any smartphone, any android console etc..

 

Actually seems there are plenty 5" 480p Screens for pi out there. Touchscreens actually. Very nice. Do you know the native Resolution of the Screen you're using?

 

Authentic Video playback would be a CRT. I won't hold you up to that. But at least make sure you have native Resolution running.

 

If you have a 4.2" widescreen, but it's running at 4:3 it's actually less than that right? So when you put those two together you should be sure to take that into account.

 

" ‘Kinda authentic but not quite’ doesn’t show much confidence when presenting the System"

The truth kinda hurts...

Edited by leods
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I think I just put the pieces together here. You actually bought a DIY kit from Hartmut, slapped in a Star Force arcade machine, some People told you it looked cool and you just decided to kickstart it?

 

http://www.hwhardsoft.de/english/webshop/mini-arcade/#cc-m-product-9998892497

 

Think about this. You are kickstarting a Shell of an existing console. Your "prototype" is an existing product that you just want to copy. Everything else besides the Shell already exists 100% ready done by other People, and you didin't even make a prototype of the actual Shell you're going to ship.

 

The Retro VGS at least has the tooling for the jag Shells you know? You want 190k euros to kickstart a cool looking Weekend Project you made. If People think that's cool that's cool. I sorta think you're breaking Kickstarter rules with this. Specially with the Video thumbnail that's photoshoped. The Screen on the System doesn't look like that at all...

 

I just took a look. Yeah. Hartmut actually has 240p Screens. Your System is actually running in native Resolution, but you're so clueless as to what you're selling that you couldn't even tell me that? It's widescreen, but besides that it's actually 240p. At least it's the specs Hartmut has on his site.

 

I do wish you luck. I think Hartmut deserves the Money he'll get if this goes through.

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I'm not really sure what the problem is--star force pi was always just a VFD-style case with pi internals and arcade controls.

That its internals are fairly easy to put together, and that its the maker has successfully done similar, is the big selling point over the retro vgs you mentioned. It's very believable that starforcepilot will come through on his kickstarter, simply because everybody knows that outside of the case, it's not going to be too terribly hard to do. That's not exactly a down side.

 

Again, emulation's not really my thing, so it's not like I'm fanboy'ing out here.

Edited by Reaperman
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I think I just put the pieces together here. You actually bought a DIY kit from Hartmut, slapped in a Star Force arcade machine, some People told you it looked cool and you just decided to kickstart it?

 

http://www.hwhardsoft.de/english/webshop/mini-arcade/#cc-m-product-9998892497

 

Are the internals exactly what we as regular consumers can purchase? Or are the StarForce Pi's internals truly custom made? The one on the web page seems to support only two buttons, but the SFPI has four.

 

I can see a modified version one of their products going into SFPI.

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Are the internals exactly what we as regular consumers can purchase? Or are the StarForce Pi's internals truly custom made? The one on the web page seems to support only two buttons, but the SFPI has four.

 

I can see a modified version one of their products going into SFPI.

Look at the Video on Kickstarter, and the link I posted. You'll see that when Marcel said he "prototyped" his System, he Shows a Picture of exactly Hartmut's 4.2" screen kit. Every single component. So he probably just put that in a Star Force Case. There you go.

 

I have nothing against it. But he sure as hell isn't transparent about it. In the Kickstarter he says his prototype is based of 80's tabletops. No it's not. The prototype IS an old case with 100% off the shelf parts. Wether that's actually a prototype or not I don't care. If People like the Project and want to donate to it just go for it. I'm just bringing the transparency I think this Kind of Project has to have. But I'm bringing it to the Forum here. This should all be in the Kickstarter page.

 

As for the whole Resolution bullshit I was talking about, sorry. My bad. It's running on native Resolution. So at least that isn't a worry at all.

 

Just you guys be Aware that the "prototype" dimentions as shown are not final, and when they actually start developing their actual prototypes they'll have to add an Inch of height to the part where the controlls are to fit them in there.

 

Done. That's all. It's such a pitty to see People be like that. Why do you have to do that Marcel? Just tell People what you did, where you arte, what the actual challenges are. how you'll solve them. It's Kickstarter. It's not about building Hype.

 

The fact you Show Gunlord gameplay is sorta worrying. Are People supposed to pirate the game once they get it? lol. You don't know if that's the game going into the System... Is the other game r-type, or is it last hope? They won't be both on the System...

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Oh. I do have to add a couple very important things. Marcel actually never hid the fact he just bought an arcade kit from Hartmut. It's in his original post here on the Forum. But somehow that didn't make into the Kickstarter gampaign page.

 

To sum it up, there are only a couple Problems with this in reality:

 

1: The most glaring one, is that the prototype isn't a prototype. It's something made by someone else. It's a star force case. I do believe the way to go would have been make the 3D models for the final case, 3D print it and test it. That would be a legit prototype, and with that they'd be able to Show People what the System will actually look like. It would still be sorta OK to have the Project like this, and I wouldn't object as to how this is being done if it was very clear the System won't be as shown. I don't think that's clear at all. I'll repeat: The case IS the Project. And the case being shown is not what People could possibly get at their homes without butchering the arcade sticks. As is, this is misleading at the very least. That is a Problem.

 

2: The screen once set to 4:3 won't be 4.2" anymore. You have to reduce that Dimension acordingly. It won't even be a big difference. Or just say it's a 16:9 Screen with Stickers glued to the sides so it Looks like 4:3. It's the truth. Just tell People what you're selling. I doubt People will be that bothered by it. They just have to know.

 

3: kinda "gray zone": using gameplay of games that arguably can't be legally played on the System, some inacurate 3D renders etc... Some will certainly call it nitpicking. It's more Problems on the marteking side than on the Project itself. Still can also be misleading

 

 

I just want to understand one Thing that still isn't clear. With the funding Goal of 190k, will the Software guys develop the tate Support? I still don't understand what funding goal will be required to get the console to be able to Play with external Controllers, on tate, on diferent Displays, and linking between Systems.

Edited by leods
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This is quite a response, so rather than going through each point, I will just respond specifically to Leo's final post:

 

1) A prototype is an early sample made to show a proof-of-concept, which is what this is. Even if the build seems simple, it doesn't make it any less of a prototype, nor any less attainable. The whole point is that it's simple and off-the-shelf, which is clearly stated everywhere, except for the case and arcade shield. The case started out as a mod, then evolved into a second version with greater connectivity, and now has a third version on which Hartmut Wendt is developing an Arcade Shield onto a Raspberry Pi, so the whole thing could fit neatly into a small enough package. I've then made a 3D design based on vector drawings based on the original case, and shared this with the injection molding company that Hartmut Wendt has collaborated with professionally, and they gave an estimate on the initial SolidWorks design, and how much time and effort it would cost to make this CAD model and then print the 3D prototypes. This designing of a CAD model and printing 3D prototypes is roughly 5000-6000 euros and takes several months to make sure the off-the-shelf components fit neatly in the case, but it is not within my financial capabilities to cover the engineering team's fee. Hence it is under preplanning, modeling & 2-3 case prototypes in our KS campaign, seen in the figure below (also on the KS page). The process can be broadly followed from beginning to end if you go back far enough on the facebook page and follow the videos.
12182974_632122950263617_409326437163343
2) The screen once set to 4:3 won't be 4.2" anymore, but slightly larger due to the magnified window. How large the visual workspace will finally be will be determined by the final magnification factor we can get into the molded winded, and the final screen type we get. So for now, a 4:2" set to 4:3 ratio is what it will be, in a previous post on this thread, retrovideogamer, facebook and wordpress we discuss this a little further, as I originally wanted to go for 4:3 native but this was deemed too expensive to follow through.
3) The picture in KS does have a photoshopped Pulsar game on it, but only because the magnified window warps the image. Pulsar does work and play on it, but I probably should have put a small * with a disclaimer on it. An NG:DEV-TEAM game will be bundled with the system, on microSD card, when this stretchgoal is reached. Which game this will be will be determined by NG:DEV-TEAM (as certain games have a higher licensing fee) and by poll. The game on open architecture and microSD is sensitive to piracy, but that's the point of the stretchgoal, to cover their investment interest. NG:DEV-TEAM have given us permission to use their products in our campaign, as did PiPlay and EmulationStation. The games not under permission license are certainly in a grey area, as is the use of Max Headroom, youtube songs, etc. I hope they won't sue me.
A 190k funding goal is set to cover roughly 950 completed 199 euro STARFORCE PI units. The software guys will get the early prototypes to optimize their frontends on, like tate support, external controllers, external display already works so that doesn't need anything further, and linking systems is still something they'd have to see if it is at all possible (hence it's omitted from the KS page except for the FAQ, but it would be a development goal). They didn't ask to get paid for this per se, but if we have money left over after all the hardware requirements are met, we'd like to give them some in support for their contribution. And anything they develop is not exclusive to the SFP, but will be open source. This was acceptable for them.
The 225k stretchgoal allows us to put the image of an SFP optimized PiPlay and EmulationStation frontend onto a fast microSD and bundle it with the systems, and it would allow us to extend their financial support. Hartmut Wendt is offering his time for free to develop the Arcade Shields, but will receive a set unit price which stipulates the flexibility with which he can build the PCBs. Any money left over from the campaign that could be attributed to me will be injected back into supporting more emulation and frontend platforms.
The system is a compromise of function, producability and affordability. I combines existing, established and cheap technology into a simple formfactor that has the potential for fun and solid arcade gameplay, and the prototype closely approximates to what will finally be produced.
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Are the internals exactly what we as regular consumers can purchase? Or are the StarForce Pi's internals truly custom made? The one on the web page seems to support only two buttons, but the SFPI has four.

 

I can see a modified version one of their products going into SFPI.

 

We're selling the Case and Arcade Shield loose on Kickstarter, the rest of the components are off-the-shelf and can be bought by regular consumers, so modders could build their own system any way they want. But of course we will have the fully assembled and tested SFPs on there as well. The SFP will support four buttons, the 2-button model you see was the very first iteration of the system because Hartmut's PCB only supported 2 buttons. The 4 button version came after some creative modding, but all buttons work well.

Edited by StarForcePilot
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I've used the system for several hours with considerable button mashing but moderate joystick jerking (I'm mostly playing platformers), and it all feels pretty solid. This will be explored more thoroughly during the design phase, when we get the first 3D printed prototypes, and tested again during the assembly and testing procedure of the first batch of SFPs.

Edited by StarForcePilot
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  • 2 weeks later...

There is a tentative plan B, but whatever the outcome of our campaign, we’ve done way too much work to just abandon the STARFORCE PI. The more work we put in, the more we’re convinced of its potential, and right now there's still 40k backed, which shows a solid interest. I have to discuss with the engineer and developers what would be prudent in case the funding goal isn't met, but I think at the least we could continue developing both the Case & Arcade Shield and see where we go from there. Saying that, I'd still rather go for the SFP as a plug-and-play console, so that'll remain a priority.

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There is a tentative plan B, but whatever the outcome of our campaign, we’ve done way too much work to just abandon the STARFORCE PI. The more work we put in, the more we’re convinced of its potential, and right now there's still 40k backed, which shows a solid interest. I have to discuss with the engineer and developers what would be prudent in case the funding goal isn't met, but I think at the least we could continue developing both the Case & Arcade Shield and see where we go from there. Saying that, I'd still rather go for the SFP as a plug-and-play console, so that'll remain a priority.

 

 

Cool.

 

Can I ask what the plan is for the case, are you for example planning to change the design a bit so it's different to the original?. I ask because I'm pretty sure Grandstand imported (rebranded) these from Epoch who are still around. They may not go after you for using their design (which fair chance is copyrigthed) , but you probably don't want to take that chance.

Edited by vcoleiro1
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