+5-11under Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I just saw this... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/donbluth/dragons-lair-the-movie?ref=newest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7800fan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Interesting. But can it be done? The original Dragon's Lair was cool for the time and had wonderful animation. I doubt anyone can achieve that today, pull something new out of the hat. Too many modern animated video are done with computer and it's mostly old rehash these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 ... it's mostly old rehash these days. That's Dragon's Lair in general, I'm afraid. They have re-re-re-re-released that old game in so many formats (admittedly getting better each time) that even I've stopped buying it. 30 years later seems like a good time for them to do something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) It's also being discussed on AtariAge here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/244997-dragons-lair-movie-kickstarter/ As was stated in that thread and I stated in my blog post, it's important to note that all that's being offered is a PITCH VIDEO to possibly get the movie traditionally funded, not an actual movie. Edited October 27, 2015 by Bill Loguidice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I agree fully with your blog post, Bill. I have these games on Blu-Ray, Windows, iOS, GameBoy Color, and probably some other formats I've forgotten about. They're all largely the same thing, and apart from video resolution, they're kind of the same thing, over and over again. I think I know the background story by now, so like you, my past contributions will have to do. I wish them luck and I hope they get the funding to try something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I agree fully with your blog post, Bill. I have these games on Blu-Ray, Windows, iOS, GameBoy Color, and probably some other formats I've forgotten about. They're all largely the same thing, and apart from video resolution, they're kind of the same thing, over and over again. I think I know the background story by now, so like you, my past contributions will have to do. I wish them luck and I hope they get the funding to try something different. Just to clarify, while I think this Kickstarter is "misguided," I'd LOVE to see a feature length original film set in the Dragon's Lair universe with the same characters from the arcade games. I just don't personally like this particular approach they're taking to try and get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Just to clarify, while I think this Kickstarter is "misguided," I'd LOVE to see a feature length original film set in the Dragon's Lair universe with the same characters from the arcade games. I just don't personally like this particular approach they're taking to try and get there. Do you think they should fund their own pitch film? <--- this is what I believe, but I see how it would be "nice" for them to be able to show community support and demand Or do you think they should try to crowd fund the full movie itself? I think the rewards and the level of funding needed to unlock them are unnecessarily high, to the point of insulting. Wouldn't Super Dragon's Lair Fan Number One already have all this crap, like we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Do you think they should fund their own pitch film? <--- this is what I believe, but I see how it would be "nice" for them to be able to show community support and demand Or do you think they should try to crowd fund the full movie itself? I think the rewards and the level of funding needed to unlock them are unnecessarily high, to the point of insulting. Wouldn't Super Dragon's Lair Fan Number One already have all this crap, like we do? Yes, they should fund their own pitch film. They have the credentials, etc. (although their last few films didn't do good box office), and I'm assuming they don't need anywhere near 500k to do it (if every movie pitch needed that kind of money, very few movies would ever get made). I bet a good portion of that 500k is going to offset the costs of the reward tiers, which is basically just them clearing out old inventory. I think I have a bigger problem with how this Kickstarter is deceptive. Whether that's intentional or not is another issue (I'll give the benefit of the doubt here assume it's not intentional, but it doesn't change the fact of what it is). I guarantee if they were clearer about this being just for a PITCH and that the $125 reward tier doesn't get you the actual movie (just the old Blu-ray game), they'd have far fewer backers. You only have to read the backer comments to see the mass of confusion that's there. If this does get funded, I guarantee they're going to have a LOT of angry backers out there, which I can't see appealing to Hollywood studios wanting to back them to the tune of $70 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I bet a good portion of that 500k is going to offset the costs of the reward tiers, which is basically just them clearing out old inventory. Paying for shipping all those shoelaces and stickers and crap? Ugh. You're probably right and I just died a little bit more inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7800fan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 If they do go through with the production of a new movie, I do hope they don't use anyone responsible for that fugly short lived Saturday morning cartoon series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulBlazer Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 It's very deceptive. I was hoping this would be for a full movie, but animation is a lot more expensive then shooting a actual movie. When the movie Veronica Mars got funded fully on KS a couple years ago, which I backed even though I had never seen the show cause I wanted to support the concept, I was hoping to see more low budget movies go to KS to get funded and a alt for the Hollywood studios. Sadly, that's not happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) I do not see Don Bluth's Kickstarter as particularly deceptive. He clearly states what the rewards will be and indicates that the goal of his kickstarter is to make an impressive pitch video to convince a major film studio or investors to fund his Dragon's Lair movie to the tune of $70M. I do have a wag of my finger for the way the factual information is presented, you get a paragraph of hard information between multiple reward tiers. I prefer the whole pitch first, then all the rewards after, it makes it easier to understand the whole campaign. First, I would argue that Don Bluth has not been a major creative force in animated film since the start of the Disney Renaissance and his films since then, with one exception, have lost money at the box office. His brand may be a bit too tarnished for traditional investors to touch. Second, traditional hand-drawn animated features are always a difficult sell these days. Disney can make them, but the last major traditional animated film they released was Winnie the Pooh in 2011. Studio Ghibli, the foremost active practitioner of the art form, has been on operational hiatus for over a year. Even SG's most expensive film cost just under $50M to produce. These types of films face a very uncertain future. Third, Don Bluth's best pitch is the work he has already done. There is plenty of good animation in Dragon's Lair, as remastered, (and his other films) that can show off what he was creatively capable. If that is not good enough to convince major investment to take a gamble, then will a $550K promo work? Fourth, I would argue that Adam Sandler's movie Pixels was a decent hit and Wreck-It-Ralph was a big hit, but they were based primarily off original ideas. Direct video game to movie adaptations have a certain reputation that is hard to shake. Fifth, the international market is a huge factor in whether a major budget film will be made. Dragon's Lair may have been popular in the United States and perhaps the same can be said for Europe. However, what about China or India? I do not recall that the expensive Laserdisc game would have had much presence in those huge markets. Sixth, the ultimate goal of $70 million is just off the scale of Kickstarter. The most successful Kickstarter ever, the Pebble Time, made just over $20M. I know that their goal is not to raise $70M from Kickstarter, but that is their eventual goal. I believe it is fundamentally wrong to use a Kickstarter campaign as a stepping stone. And I agree with Bill that Kickstarter contributors may feel stepped on or feel like second class-contributors in order for Don Bluth to become relevant again in the big leagues. A successful, funded Kickstarter really should have something more tangible than what is offered in this campaign. Edited October 28, 2015 by Great Hierophant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHW Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Secret of Nimh is one of my fave movies of all time. Same with American Tale. Not too interested in Dragon's Lair though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-type Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I agree with many of the above commenters. There a lot of problems with this kickstarter campaign.... first off, their campaign video is corny as hell... embarrassingly so..."Dragon Lairs"... Don Bluth sounds like he barely wants to do it... his buddy is practically twisting his him to get him to participate... "come on, please look at the camera and say you will do it..." and he's all melancholy and like "I guess I'll do it...." Most importantly, why the hell do they need 550,000 to make a pitch video? Did they lose their copy of the DVD? or the TV Series. Its already a fairly well established IP... been around for 30+ years... I'm sure anyone who would consider investing is already familiar with it. Just seems like they are needlessly milking their fans for money, and wasting a bunch of time and energy, and their main guy doesn't even sound like he wants to do it. Their reward tiers are beyond ridiculous. $125 gets you dvd you can by for $20 bucks on Amazon. What a deal! I would personally love to see a Dragon's Lair, movie, but I am in their target niche audience.. As others have pointed out, would this really appeal to a wide international audience? I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macdlsa Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It's moved here : https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dragon-s-lair-returns#/ Say what you want, I would really love to see a Bluth's new movie, as I'd love to see an entire drawn animation movie instead of another CGI one !... but I'm a little bit "biased".. ... and, of course: I still have to search (and hopefully FIND...) other VHS of Bluth's movies I bought several years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 It's moved here : https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dragon-s-lair-returns#/ Say what you want, I would really love to see a Bluth's new movie, as I'd love to see an entire drawn animation movie instead of another CGI one ! ... but I'm a little bit "biased".. Yeah, it's nice to see them fix the issues with the original campaign and make it crystal clear what they're after and what each reward tier actually is. It's a shame they couldn't have done this all in the first place, but at least I can morally support it in good conscience now. Since this is Indiegogo, they have it set where they get to keep whatever money they earn even if they don't hit their reduced goal (which they should anyway). Obviously they'll be trying to do a pitch video with whatever amount they're able to get, which again, begs the question why their original goal on Kickstarter was so high in the first place. As for the potential of an eventual movie being made, I wouldn't hold my breath. Even if they do make a good pitch video, it doesn't mean a studio will fork out what they think they need for a feature length film, although the good news with that is that it might lead to other opportunities (like a Netflix series or something). If against all odds they do get a studio to back them making a film, I can't even imagine the number of years it would take to get something like that produced. Five years would probably be overly optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 The new campaign does look someone really did a thoughful rethink and the results speak for themselves. How much would it cost to do 13 hand drawn 22 minute episodes of a Dragon's Lair series? MST3K is looking for 5.5M for 12 episodes. If Don Bluth Co. could raise the cost to do essentially half a season, they would be more likely to be picked up on a continuing basis or at least for the second half of a season. Then if the show was successful, a big budget feature film would be an easier sell. Of course, Bluth would have to make Dragon's Lair more accessible to children who have never heard of a laserdisc and barely know what an arcade experience is. Based on the plot synopsis on the campaign page, there are positive signs that the material has been modernized a bit. Still, I remain troubled by the ultimate "stepping stone" goal of the campaign. If all that is ever produced is a trailer, its simply a footnote in the history of animation, a "what could have been." Unless some disaster befalls the MST3K revival, there should be six complete episodes of the show. The ultimate goal of the $70M big budget hand-drawn animation still seems as far as ever, even if the stone is not quite so high this time. At least if they took the episodic approach, they would have something complete at the end of the day to sell on a disc. No one should begrudge a crowdfunded campaign that leads to bigger and better things for the original team, but I cannot advocate for a campaign whose principal purpose is to lead to bigger and better things rather over providing something tangible to or for backers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-type Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 The new campaign video is a million times better, You can tell that they rethought it and the goal has been made much more realistic. I still don't get the logic of putting a lot time and money into a pitch video for an already established property with plenty of pre-existing footage, but if people want to hand over their hard earned money to facilitate it so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Nope. This one is worse. I'm calling it for the shameless money grab that it is. I also will predict they'll go to the well at least one more time before this saga concludes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfitzenr Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The new campaign video is a million times better, You can tell that they rethought it and the goal has been made much more realistic. I still don't get the logic of putting a lot time and money into a pitch video for an already established property with plenty of pre-existing footage, but if people want to hand over their hard earned money to facilitate it so be it. Yeah this is what confuses me. I don't think it looks particularly deceptive, but if it's clearly understood I'm surprised this many people would be willing to pledge this much money for 60 seconds of animation and a prayer. And if Don Bluth still has the cachet required to get a $70m full scale production approved and financed, based on an existing property, would a quarter million dollar campaign with a minute of animation really change anybody's mind? I realize you need some sort of 'proof of concept' and something tangible to show potential investors and studios but I just wonder even if the campaign is successful, what are the REAL chances of the movie ever coming to fruition out of it? He obviously has an amazing track record and this is something that I would love to see, but just seems like a really hard sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Yeah this is what confuses me. I don't think it looks particularly deceptive, but if it's clearly understood I'm surprised this many people would be willing to pledge this much money for 60 seconds of animation and a prayer. And if Don Bluth still has the cachet required to get a $70m full scale production approved and financed, based on an existing property, would a quarter million dollar campaign with a minute of animation really change anybody's mind? I realize you need some sort of 'proof of concept' and something tangible to show potential investors and studios but I just wonder even if the campaign is successful, what are the REAL chances of the movie ever coming to fruition out of it? He obviously has an amazing track record and this is something that I would love to see, but just seems like a really hard sell. The new campaign is far more transparent than the Kickstarter campaign was. I don't think they were purposely deceptive with the Kickstarter campaign, but the lack of clarity made it seem like that. I think they've made the new campaign as clear as it could possibly be. I also agree with your line of questioning. Assuming this is targeted to a $50 - $100 mm film production, I too don't see how a minutes-long test reel (presumably matching what they want the final target to be) will help to sell the production, unless of course they think they've come up with a new type of 2D animation technique or art style that exceeds what they originally achieved with the Dragon's Lair arcade game. Then I can sort of understand needing something that would show that off. With that said, I doubt that's the case here. Ultimately, I don't think it matters that they have a very low probability of getting film funding. I'm personally satisfied that many of the people supporting them are doing so as a sort of "thank you" for their past efforts and they're getting some minor tangible goods out of it. The creators of course get one more shot, however long, at the big time. It's probably a fair deal all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfitzenr Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Yeah honestly I agree, I mean just the fact that somebody who was behind some real classics, trying to resurrect a property that fills me with nostalgic goodness, can drum up this much publicity and money from essentially random people in their corner is pretty awesome. It's kinda a testament to how incredible the crowdfunding movement and this whole sorta retro 'scene' is. (I mean it's only tangentially related to this, but it blows my mind that AGDQ can crack a million in a given event... that Pat the NES Punk can play random old NES games for 24 hours and raise $20k. This retro gaming community is pretty incredible) And even if I think it's a bit weird all around, I think you're right that it's fair and I'm pulling for 'em. I would practically MAKE my nephews watch and then love a Dragon's Lair movie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 (edited) Since I'm really more into animation these days than videogames, this thread is a crossover, of sorts. I read a site called Cartoon Brew, which is aimed at industry professionals (I'm really NOT one, but I'd like to think I am, so I read it). And this has come up there. http://www.cartoonbrew.com/crowdfunding/don-bluth-doesnt-need-money-make-dragons-lair-pitch-125309.html The core problem is one of perception. If people feel they are donating their money to people who should be able to afford doing it without taking a risk, it sounds like a cash-grab. Also, typically, entertainment products like this are more of a presold item. You're paying to have the finished product. Like I donated to two campaigns like that. The Green Girl, a documentary on actress Susan Oliver (who played Veena in Star Trek) and Hullabaloo. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hullabaloo-steampunk-animated-film#/ Note how similar Hullabaloo is to Bluth's project. Note the difference, though. Hullabaloo is going to just plain get done purely off of the crowdfunding budget. It's not a pitch. They've got the dream-team. They just need enough money to do it. And presumably, nobody's going to get rich. If they spin that off into a bigger IP, so be it, but they are keeping it grass-roots to start. Salad days. You get the sense they love what they're building and you want to support them for their dedication and willingness to sacrifice. But supporting people so they can immediately bang on studio doors to ask for 70 mil? It's a little harder to get worked up about it. Bluth probably should have done it the Hullabaloo way, rather than immediately trying to reach for big-budget financing. I just think they are too locked into an old-media paradigm. Edited December 9, 2015 by mos6507 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Hierophant Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) At first glance, I'm not sure I see much in the way of difference between Hullabaloo (HB) and Dragon's Lair (DL) film projects. HB's pitch stated it wanted to make a short film to show investors to finance a full film. The Indiegoogo campaign had a modest goal of $80K and fixed funding. It earned $470,736, enough to make three more short films. You get a digital download copy of the films for a $25 contribution. DL wants to make a four minute pitch presentation teaser video, intended to encourage investors to finance them to the tune of 70 million dollars. The video will feature one minute of full animation. Its Indiegogo campaign seeks $250,000, but uses flexible funding. However, having raised $217,206 with 36 days left, they will likely meet their goal. You can download the video for a $35 contribution. The biggest difference I see is that the contributor is probably getting a lot more value for your money with HB. There is almost certainly more than one minute of full color animation on the HB Indiegoogo campaign page. The second difference is that with HB you should get four self-contained shorts (how short these films will be is unknown). With DL you get only a promo video, which includes sketches, Bluth talking about the project, etc. If neither gets a feature film, with HB at least you get foundation versus a glimpse of what could have been. If you donate to people who can afford to do it without crowdfunding, essentially you have eliminated or minimized their financial risk should the project be unsuccessful. The bank will require collateral, the investor a share of the film and perhaps some creative control. If they fail with traditional financing they lose their house or their rights to the film. If they succeed, the bank gets repaid with interest, the investor gets a share of the profit. If a crowdfunded campaign fails to deliver after reaching its funding goals, the backers may get nothing for their money, depending on the magnitude of the failure. The ultimate project may never get made or the resulting project is disappointing. If it succeeds, the profits go to the campaigners, although the backers get what was promised. Edited December 11, 2015 by Great Hierophant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiv Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 ... and his films since then, with one exception, have lost money at the box office. . The box office is not the only way for films to make money, especially some of his films... I think there was plenty of money making there.. desiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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