Could Road Rash (3DO) be ported to the Jaguar?

[Jagosaurus]

 

Listening to Vladr isn't supportive either. He's the embodiment of everything wrong with Jaguar land 2000-2008 where people turn up, claim to be able to make something, get everyone whipped up into a frenzy, and then utterly fail to deliver because all they are interested in is the glory. For some reason, people like JagChris grasp hold of these people and hang on with a death-grip in the hope they will come through, despite all the available evidence to the contrary.

 

Don't believe me, check his track record.

 

Hey, continue to enable this behavior if you want, that's your call. I guess it depends on how much you like being trolled.

 

I would like nothing more than to see someone make a fun 3D game (notice, that 'fun' '3D' and 'game' have to be joined here, because without 'fun' it wouldn't be a 'game' - also note that all three are distinct things)

 

The stuff Sporadic is doing with rb+ - great

The stuff Dr Typo has made - great

The stuff Seb, Matthias, Matmook have done - great

 

The stuff Vladr has made - doesn't exist.

Ahhhh man let ppl dream. It's fun. I want a playable Shenmue demo on the Saturn. I want Alone in the Dark on Jaguar CD. I want a working Back to thr Future 2 hover board!

 

Most ppl here aren't programmers & never will be.

 

It's fun to discuss concepts.

 

Your ST ports are fun to play.

 

Those two side don't have to argue. Practicality is important in all discussions but loses it's meaning when shrouded in sarcasm IMO. Maybe I'm too optimistic to be a Jaguar fan

[PlaysWithWolves]

Concepts and dreams are a lot of fun. OTOH, there's also a point when it's ...

 

 

Or to put it another way: When someone talks big but doesn't back it up, some may say he's "all hat, no cattle".

 

I'm not familiar enough with Vladr's (or others') posts to make that judgement myself, but I can understand why some may want to see some actual work done.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

By this point, i personally feel there is more than enough 'evidence' as it were from the commercial games coders etc of that era, as to why games like Doom turned out so badly on Saturn+3DO, why Jaguar hardware simply was'nt suited to games like Quake, Tomb Raider, Magic Carpet etc and why we never saw the 3DO conversions and so many other 'Lost Games'.

 

 

It's great to dream of what might of been, but the facts really are the hardware of that era was'nt quite what was promised, publishers had little/no faith in Atari and taking John's comments onboard from my earlier post, it seems a lot of time and effort was put into covering up the 3DO's short comings as well.

 

The fact it had the support from E.A and visually impressive titles like:NFS, Space Hulk, BladeForce, Madden etc where as the Jaguar did'nt..will always mean the spotlight shines more on Jaguar than 3DO.

[phoenixdownita]

....

The fact it had the support from E.A and visually impressive titles like:NFS, Space Hulk, BladeForce, Madden etc where as the Jaguar did'nt..will always mean the spotlight shines more on Jaguar than 3DO.

By that I venture you mean that the 3DO did delivered on some of those exaggerated promises (3D with texture games) whereas the Jaguar not quite (again textured 3D).

Both did decently in the pseudo-3D (a la Doom) at large. There were quite a few games like that on the 3DO, not particularly memorable but that was true for all the Doom-clones of the time barring a few exceptions, funny how Doom itself was not good on the platform. On the bright side the Jag got one of the best console ports (I would have appreciated a little background music but it works either way, the original PC Doom music was good imho).

Edited November 17, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

By that I venture you mean that the 3DO did delivered on some of those exaggerated promises (3D with texture games) whereas the Jaguar not quite (again textured 3D).

Both did decently in the pseudo-3D (a la Doom) at large. There were quite a few games like that on the 3DO, not particularly memorable but that was true for all the Doom-clones of the time barring a few exceptions, funny how Doom itself was not good on the platform. On the bright side the Jag got one of the best console ports (I would have appreciated a little background music but it works either way, the original PC Doom music was good imho).

 

I would agree that the 3DO delivered on the majority of its promises (multimedia platform with state-of-the-art games), while the Jaguar didn't. I would also agree that that was helped in part on the 3DO side by the bigger players involved and higher level of overall talent supporting it, and was in turn hurt on the Jaguar side by hyperbolic advertising hammering home the untenable 64-bit angle.

 

I also agree with the assessment that even with the 3DO delivering on the majority of its promises that the technology and market were too early for it to have the necessary impact. We didn't get a true multimedia convergence/home entertainment machine, i.e., one using only established standards (DVD) and not trying to create its own standard, until the PS2 in early 2000, which, perhaps unsurprisingly, remains the best selling console of all-time.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[+madman]

Ahhhh man let ppl dream. It's fun. I want a playable Shenmue demo on the Saturn. I want Alone in the Dark on Jaguar CD. I want a working Back to thr Future 2 hover board!

 

Most ppl here aren't programmers & never will be.

 

It's fun to discuss concepts.

 

I think the problem is when people who don't know what they're talking about believe their far-fetched concepts are facts, even when people w/coding backgrounds tell them otherwise.

[Spacey Invader]

Yeah that's a serious problem, all right. It's important to shut these people down before they start causing real disasters. Besides there are so many logical things to say about playing the jaguar in 2015, right? Right?

 

For the same reason, I never read a movie review written by a person who hasn't produced or directed a good movie, because wtf so they know about movies if they haven't? And don't get me started on reading enthusiasts who haven't written the great American novel.

[Atlantis]

Yes, I also think that 3DO delivered state of the art games for its time, and if PSX never was made the sequel M2 maight have been the stuff instead... Sure, Jaguar didn't deliver... we all know that. That's what's so funny with this "bastard" console; we all wanted it to have the same chance... It's a bit sad that the US console Atari fell flat, and that adds to the speculation I think: "what if they could have delivered... our future might have been different". That's fun to speculate about.

There might be some old grudges between the dev vs wannabe-dev guys. I myself don't drop any fantasy ideas of 3D powah games in the making, and in a way I can understand that some old timers gets pretty fed up on the dreaming from time to time. There might be a difference between one "soft" kind of speculation and another "dev" kind of speculation.

[phoenixdownita]

 

I would agree that the 3DO delivered on the majority of its promises (multimedia platform with state-of-the-art games), while the Jaguar didn't. I would also agree that that was helped in part on the 3DO side by the bigger players involved and higher level of overall talent supporting it, and was in turn hurt on the Jaguar side by hyperbolic advertising hammering home the untenable 64-bit angle.

 

I also agree with the assessment that even with the 3DO delivering on the majority of its promises that the technology and market were too early for it to have the necessary impact. We didn't get a true multimedia convergence/home entertainment machine, i.e., one using only established standards (DVD) and not trying to create its own standard, until the PS2 in early 2000, which, perhaps unsurprisingly, remains the best selling console of all-time.

Funny part about the multimedia promise is that to play VideoCD the 3DO necessitates an MPEG board.

[the same is true for CDi, CDTV, CD32, Saturn ... I believe even the PS1 to play VideoCD needed extra hw, I guess movies per se were not multimedia enough ].

 

You are right that it isn't until the PS2 that true "multimedia" was reached, up until then it was Games + CD Audio but no movies.

Of course now all major consoles do that in one form or another (except the PS4 as it seems it does not play music CD, well it's all digital anyway).

 

In the case of the Jag I am not sure what the multimedia promise was all about given you needed a JagCD for that but it says it right on the shell:

"64-bit interactive multimedia system"

Edited November 17, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[+madman]

Yeah that's a serious problem, all right. It's important to shut these people down before they start causing real disasters. Besides there are so many logical things to say about playing the jaguar in 2015, right? Right?

 

For the same reason, I never read a movie review written by a person who hasn't produced or directed a good movie, because wtf so they know about movies if they haven't? And don't get me started on reading enthusiasts who haven't written the great American novel.

I think you're confusing several different concepts. Everyone is entitled to a subjective opinion of a game, preferably with objective facts to prove their point. Nobody needs experience in making something in order to give their opinion on it, though it certainly would help to be knowledgeable. However, when one critiques specific parts of something and tells utter nonsense about how they would've done it better, when they in fact, cannot, that is what gets bothersome. I have zero experience in doing special effects and makeup for movies/tv. What if I went onto a forum and started saying how if I was in charge of makeup and fx for The Walking Dead, the zombies and the kills would look way more realistic. I would be lying, I wouldn't be giving a review of the show, I would be telling lies because I have no experience in that field. Same thing when someone with no programming background comes on about how he would speed up Supercross 3D to 30fps when one of his "optimizations" would buy almost nothing.

 

I really don't understand why the Jag is the one console that gets all these arm chair experts with their pie in the sky dreams. I don't see people on the Lynx forum talking about conspiracy theories or how the Lynx could've competed with the Gameboy Advance if only its unharnessed powah was discovered by developers.

[Otto1980]

Same thing when someone with no programming background comes on about how he would speed up Supercross 3D to 30fps when one of his "optimizations" would buy almost nothing.

 

I really don't understand why the Jag is the one console that gets all these arm chair experts with their pie in the sky dreams. I don't see people on the Lynx forum talking about conspiracy theories or how the Lynx could've competed with the Gameboy Advance if only its unharnessed powah was discovered by developers.

 

i have "programming background" and i can tell you that supercross wastes lot resources while your holy shrine NFS does tweaks and windowdressing with things like reduction of details at already 30 m infront of your car, lowres textures, 3d world on rails....

i playd it 1 hour ago.. its just fact.. nice game nice presentation.. but also boild with water

 

greetings.. your armchairmain of trust

Edited November 17, 2015 by Otto1980

[+madman]

Funny part about the multimedia promise is that to play VideoCD the 3DO necessitates an MPEG board.

[the same is true for CDi, CDTV, CD32, Saturn ... I believe even the PS1 to play VideoCD needed extra hw, I guess movies per se were not multimedia enough ].

 

You are right that it isn't until the PS2 that true "multimedia" was reached, up until then it was Games + CD Audio but no movies.

Of course now all major consoles do that in one form or another (except the PS4 as it seems it does not play music CD, well it's all digital anyway).

 

In the case of the Jag I am not sure what the multimedia promise was all about given you needed a JagCD for that but it says it right on the shell:

"64-bit interactive multimedia system"

Yep, there was a separate VCD board for the PS1...I can't remember if it actually came out in the states or not because obviously VCD wasn't big here like it was in Asia.

 

I remember there was some sort of multimedia PC standard back then as well, basically allowed people to know the PC they were buying was equipped for "multimedia" whatever that may have meant at the time. It's funny out of the 4 words on the Jag case, only 2 are true

[+CyranoJ]

 

i have "programming background" and i can tell you that supercross wastes lot resources

 

So you've disassembled and fully documented/commented the code then? Cool, post it so we can all see!

Edited November 17, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Bill Loguidice]

Funny part about the multimedia promise is that to play VideoCD the 3DO necessitates an MPEG board.

[the same is true for CDi, CDTV, CD32, Saturn ... I believe even the PS1 to play VideoCD needed extra hw, I guess movies per se were not multimedia enough ].

 

You are right that it isn't until the PS2 that true "multimedia" was reached, up until then it was Games + CD Audio but no movies.

Of course now all major consoles do that in one form or another (except the PS4 as it seems it does not play music CD, well it's all digital anyway).

 

In the case of the Jag I am not sure what the multimedia promise was all about given you needed a JagCD for that but it says it right on the shell:

"64-bit interactive multimedia system"

 

To clarify my statement, I was not referring to Video CD's per se, just the general ability as a multimedia machine. The 3DO could play video just fine without an add-on, and in fact several video-centric titles were released (I remember some public domain Woody Woodpecker shorts that you could map to 3D objects being one of the early titles in its library). The trouble was that the stock 3DO video playback was never going to be a video standard, nor was it going to be on any other multimedia machine of the era. As you stated, the 3DO and others needed an MPEG add-on to enable Video CDs, which themselves never really caught on despite a semi-heroic push by Philips (who eventually started releasing CD-i models with digital video capability built-in). It was a chicken and egg kind of thing.

 

The main issue was there was nothing established to rally around back then other than CDs, which really weren't ideally suited to full length video, or at least full length video appreciably better or fuller featured than ubiquitous VHS tapes (which you can't based an interactive platform around). That's why the PS2's timing was so fortuitous, because DVD was already a reasonably well established video platform by then and it was an ideal foundation for a multimedia system. My main point was was that if there was something DVD-like available in the 3DO's time, then it might have been a better value proposition. Even putting aside the added cost of MPEG support, I just don't think it was ever going to be Video CDs. It was just too early for something like that to be workable, just like, as I mentioned, all of the attempts at multimedia consoles.

[Otto1980]

 

So you've disassembled and fully documented/commented the code then?

 

i cant tell..

 

 

Cool, post it so we can all see!

N0

 

a hidden wizard told me that calculating less is taking less time in theory

 

belive me ..i am professional armed with a chair

Edited November 17, 2015 by Otto1980

[JagChris]

Listening to Vladr isn't supportive either. He's the embodiment of everything wrong with Jaguar land 2000-2008 where people turn up, claim to be able to make something, get everyone whipped up into a frenzy, and then utterly fail to deliver because all they are interested in is the glory. For some reason, people like JagChris grasp hold of these people and hang on with a death-grip in the hope they will come through, despite all the available evidence to the contrary.

 

Quit dragging me into your drama. These people are just trying to have fun here.

[Willard]

 

I think the problem is when people who don't know what they're talking about believe their far-fetched concepts are facts, even when people w/coding backgrounds tell them otherwise.

 

If you're going to be a stickler to that kind of logic,that statement may as well say "unless you have written the best looking game on the Jaguar, you are not entitled to have an opinion on the potential it has"

 

One reason I don't think people just accept any opinion about the Jaguar from "people with programming backgrounds" is that there are some pretty big differences between many of the engines on the Jaguar, with some people able to get a lot more out of it in a lot less time than others. Missile Command 3D was written in only 6 months and (imo) is one of the better looking games on the Jaguar. Phase Zero was written by a team of amateur programmers who wanted to siphon development funds from Atari into projects for other systems.

 

All that most people really have to go by (from a commercial perspective) are examples of underfunded, understaffed development teams that often didn't take the Jaguar seriously or rushed the games out the door.

 

Most people might be saying "the Jaguar network is buggy, and cannot produce a stable connection," had it not been done, so we now know it is not the case.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Willard

[+madman]

If you're going to be a stickler to that kind of logic,that statement may as well say "unless you have written the best looking game on the Jaguar, you are not entitled to have an opinion on the potential it has"

Fume logic.

[Austin]

Ahhhh man let ppl dream. It's fun. I want a playable Shenmue demo on the Saturn. I want Alone in the Dark on Jaguar CD. I want a working Back to thr Future 2 hover board!

 

The thing is, people in the Jag "scene" have been "dreaming" for twenty years now. Let it die.. That, or maybe we can get a "Dreamers Only" sub-forum in the Jag section so the rest of us can get back to having sane, grounded conversations.

[Willard]

 

The thing is, people in the Jag "scene" have been "dreaming" for twenty years now. Let it die.. That, or maybe we can get a "Dreamers Only" sub-forum in the Jag section so the rest of us can get back to having sane, grounded conversations.

 

agreed. what jerks. they're ruining it for everyone. Probably on purpose too. It's definitely not the other way around

Edited November 18, 2015 by Willard

[+CyranoJ]

 

The thing is, people in the Jag "scene" have been "dreaming" for twenty years now. Let it die.. That, or maybe we can get a "Dreamers Only" sub-forum in the Jag section so the rest of us can get back to having sane, grounded conversations.

I suppose JS2 was good for something after all!

[+remowilliams]

For reals - have a ball imagining all the crazy things you want the Jag to be capable of. That's just fine if you're posting in an utterly fanciful manner.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just keep in mind that while imagination has no limits - it does not equate to knowledge.

 

Acting like you have even the most remote understanding of the hardware and its capabilities when you clearly do not and obviously lack even the most fundamental framework to understand the subject - is extremely fucking annoying. Especially to those who actually do...

[sd32]

 

The thing is, people in the Jag "scene" have been "dreaming" for twenty years now. Let it die.. That, or maybe we can get a "Dreamers Only" sub-forum in the Jag section so the rest of us can get back to having sane, grounded conversations.

20 years?... thats nothing . Many of us, Sega Genesis fans, "dreamed" of stuff like Wolfenstein 3D happening on the Genesis, or an audio engine that allowed for multiple (4!), good quality PCM channels... and guess what...it happened. I know i never stopped "dreaming" about it, not like i was obsessed or anything, just hoped it would eventually happen .

 

So, if people wanna dream, let them be. If their posts bother you, just ignore them .

 

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by sd32

[Schmudde]

I suppose JS2 was good for something after all!

 

I thought it was a forum for Thunderbird to berate the trolls and for the trolls to feed the 'bird.

 

Wow. That's going too far back. I'm too old for this sh*t.

 

/ü

 

DKG 4 life.

[+CyranoJ]

 

I thought it was a forum for Thunderbird to berate the trolls and for the trolls to feed the 'bird.

 

Wow. That's going too far back. I'm too old for this sh*t.

 

/ü

 

DKG 4 life.

Remember when it closed it's doors to the public and locked all the lunatics safely inside?

 

Ahhhh. Good times!