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Rick Dangerous

Could Road Rash (3DO) be ported to the Jaguar?

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1. Of course the game you 'port' is fully playable. You are not recreating the game from scratch, merely hooking system calls from one platform to another (give or take). The game has already been coded on a platform that is more than a magnitude slower, so it's not a miracle jag can handle it.

 

2. I'm playing nice, I believe. No insults, or anything.

 

3. VRBasic is on hold. I'm actually glad you did release rBasic first. I certainly would no like the game that are coming out of rBasic to bear the name of VRBasic, so this actually worked for me very good that you released it into the wild first. Eventually, I will get back to it. But there is no real push for now.

 

1. 'Merely' - LOL.

2. Yeah, right.

3a. It's very easy to release things before you.

3b. You'll never have to worry about the quality of vrBasic games.

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I guess we can establish a few things though:

 

1) code was written and running on VJ via binary shipped from the author

2) code is in preliminary state (missing clips, distorted textures, no road moving, missing sprites etc.....etc.....) but that was announced as such

3) it is still too early to ascertain if the PoC proves a Road Rash kind of games are doable (at present it is too rough to prove/disprove that)

4) more work is needed and more videos to show progress once progress is achieved

 

If possible we should leave it at Road Rash feasibility rather than who to thank for what.

 

If VladR is using CJ tools (in any fashion) he should just be proud of it and admit it with no issues, after all he's also using a C compiler which I doubt he wrote (but he may have).

In the end we should all thank Intel/AMD/Motorola (and others) for the CPUs we are using, K&R for C, Bill Gates for Windows, Linus Torvalds for Linux, and a whole lot of other people that worked a lot of details out that we easily take for granted (you can't optimize an algo without a good algo to begin with to optimize, the second step albeit non trivial it is a little easier because at least the thought part may have well been done already).... William Shockley comes to mind.

 

In the end we are all sitting on the shoulders of giants one way or another.

 

Now maybe next weekend we'll see some progress or not!

Edited by phoenixdownita
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3) it is still too early to ascertain if the PoC proves a Road Rash kind of games are doable (at present it is too rough to prove/disprove that)

4) more work is needed and more videos to show progress once progress is achieved

Not aimed directly at you (as I got no beef with you) but let me repeat the following for 17th time:

The last weekend's work was NOT meant to prove the feasibility of RR on jag. Merely see how far we can get and then go from there.

 

Depending on the actual framerate at the end of Phase 1, we should be able to judge if Phase 2 (GPU+DSP) will bring some fruits. By end of Phase 1 I mean - road curves/hills/AI/input - e.g. a fully playable track.

 

If, at the end of Phase 1 (68k + Blitter), the framerate will be 1 FPS, then no - Phase 2 makes no sense to even start.

If, however, at the end of Phase 1 the framerate will be around 8-10, then Phase 2 makes a whole lot of sense.

 

Not making any promises about framerate now - because as I said, this genre is new to me.

 

 

In the end we are all sitting on the shoulders of giants one way or another.

 

and a whole lot of other people that worked a lot of details out that we easily take for granted (you can't optimize an algo without a good algo to begin with to optimize, the second step albeit non trivial it is a little easier because at least the thought part may have well been done already)

Actually, when I was doing my first 3D engine on PC couple decades ago, I came up with an awful lot of algorithms that I did not know even existed, as I did not have Internet at home at that time, and I simply had to come up with some algorithms. Only about 5 yrs later, when I finally got hold of some expensive and official 3D literature, started browsing it, and I found out - wait - that is exactly what I came up with. Wait, this here too.

 

In short, I consider it a 'common coder's sense' to be able to come up with good algorithms with just a pencil and a paper and multiple iterations. It's called research.

 

So, what you say is true only to a certain limited degree. But I can see, that someone, who just follows the programmer's books, is exactly who you are talking about. Sorry, not me.

 

 

 

Not sure what your point is with regards to the C build chain I am using for Jag.If I remember the name correctly, it was Belboz / Michael Hill who set up the dev env on Windows first for public use - but feel free to correct me.

 

 

I never ever claimed to be involved in the jag's dev environment creation. Whoever did that, did it in past, and I am merely using it.

 

 

phoenixdownita, on 30 Nov 2015 - 3:47 PM, said:

 

Now maybe next weekend we'll see some progress or not!

 

I'm not going to be at home the weekend after next weekend, but I can make a promise about upcoming weekend and that I will work on RR. Sounds good ?

 

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...

In short, I consider it a 'common coder's sense' to be able to come up with good algorithms with just a pencil and a paper and multiple iterations. It's called research.

 

....

Only in "trivial" cases, allow me to explain, wall of text to follow.

 

I doubt many people not involved directly in active research would have come up themselves with Quicksort or BucketSort or RadixSort ..... even less would have been capable of inventing the B-tree, R&B tree, FM-tree and Wavelet tree, the list is so long is not even funny, take the Paxos consensus algo or even the recent RAFT if you prefer distributed systems.

 

Once though the foundations are laid out it's somewhat easier to improve.

 

3D is rooted in matrix algebra and I hardly imagine you having "invented" that, but come up with clever ways to use it to your advantage and play within the limit of the technology .... sure.

[in high school I graphed en EM field potential via oblique projection rendered back to front so no need to "cull" anything, and no internet for me either]

 

Now there are areas where common sense goes a long way because it's "easy enough" to see what needs to happen, but game changers are never a given (I mean situations in which either you prove the complexity bounds and call it a day or you find a novel and lower asymptotic complexity algo).

 

Example: Comparison sorts (like Quicksort) have now been proven to have a minimum complexity of O(n logn) so you can never be better than that although you may get a constant speed up (3x, 4x ...) by cleverly reducing the constants involved, while non comparison based sorts (Radix sort) with bound numbers (which is always true for our scenario or you don't have the RAM to represent them to start with) have a complexity of O(n) [yep linear] as they do a constant number of steps each of complexity n, the issue is of course they need more space and the constants at play are big.

 

This kind of thinking at the algorithmic level is what I find very hard, the rest is still clever (very clever in some instances) but not in the same class.

 

Another example: in order to calculate the population count (the number of bits set to 1 in a word) there are few algos of varying degree of cleverness [one is O(1) = constant time given a certain word size] but these days Intel/AMD support it in hardware so no point in dwelling in how clever that was, same thing for the presence of barrel shifters in modern CPUs etc...etc....

 

I don't mean to belittle your research work of 2 decades ago but 3D per se came of age in the 80's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_animation#The_1980s

Elite for Apple II is 1985 (wireframe with hidden surface removal in real time .... impressive)

 

Enough power was available in the home of people to make textured 3D something to pursue in videogames in the early 90s.

Wolf3D is a game from 1992 and Doom just 1Y later, both are pseudo 3D but you see what I mean, they found clever ways to render "believable" 3D-ish environments in "real time" popularizing Ray Casting.

I doubt they invented it, but likely they pulled some stunts and had to be innovative with it.

Descent (full 3D) is a game from 1994 and again I doubt they invented the math supporting their work but for sure they found clever ways to take advantage of shortcuts.

 

Again I don't mean to belittle your discoveries and I agree that some research goes a long way but inventions/breakthroughs are a very different beast so the coming up with good algo with just pencil and paper is a little naive imho.

Edited by phoenixdownita
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Did that capture correctly? Does win10 support 60fps capture at all, that video appears to be a standard 480P 30fps yt video - no options for 60. It seemed to pull VJ down to into the 50s then 40s at regular intervals - what spec is your PC? Not that it would offer anything more meaningful, but if it's a 7 or 8 year old laptop maybe that's the issue?

 

 

As is, that video only raises questions. It unfortunately offers nothing meaningful to gauge what it really is and therefore prove/disprove any of the claims previously made. Dragging VJ into the 40s on an unknown spec PC, drawing to the screen without clearing it except once about every 60 frames and then having the sprite flicker and the screen tear, no z-sorting, weird clipping/distortion... just left thinking wtf am I even watching and more importantly why?

 

 

 

 

I guess the "why" is probably because people mocking him earlier; implying it was all photoshopped or CJ saying it was only ST-worthy at best. He's well-aware it's not in a playable state, but it's safe to say it's not photoshopped.

 

i7-920, gtx 650ti, 12gb RAM

Recording did seem to affect it by a few FPS, but I think the bigger issue is that VladR sent two versions this morning and I chose the wrong one. I picked the one that loaded faster, but had lower FPS. I just recorded the other version and uploaded it. I turned up the encoder and resolution to high, but I don't think it really changed anything. Maybe it's because I'm recording it in VJ's native window instead of full screen?

 

Here's the other version, which loads a bit slower but has higher FPS:

 

https://youtu.be/c4i4TNYFO_U

 

 

ps, PWW, are you Carl's bro? :0)

 

Guilty as charged. :)

Edited by PlaysWithWolves

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phoenixdownita:

I am most certainly not going to claim 'discoveries' in the area you are talking about - there are tomes of books devoted to the highly theoretical mathematics with 10-page proofs. Thanks, but no thanks :)

 

I am however pretty sure that 30 yrs ago, all those guys that did those first 3D games, had very little (if any) access to the currently available information sources. They just had to figure it out all by themselves too.

 

Only those that were is US had better access to information.

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....

I am however pretty sure that 30 yrs ago, all those guys that did those first 3D games, had very little (if any) access to the currently available information sources. They just had to figure it out all by themselves too.

...

The math had to be known, or an approximation of it.

Sure they were clever and adapt it, shortcut it as needed, but there's no way in heaven that I believe they discovered how to do 3D by just going with it .... some math had to support them first and that was taught to them by someone (their algebra teacher, their math teacher, their drawing teacher [that's where I learn for the first time how to do some kind of perspective]).

 

Again, I don't mean to belittle your discoveries and how they matched what you later found in books, just put into context a little.

I can tell you're proud of them and you should be, to me it speaks volumes on how good the education system is in many countries.

I was proud when I found on my own how to invert a single linked list with the 3 ptr swap but it is hardly a discovery, isn't it?

I was so proud when I found on my own that if you mix together 2 pots of water at different temps you get a final temp based on the weighted average of each, again I found it on my own and it matched the actual "book" formula but it was hardly a discovery.

 

For sure the Elite coders did something never seen before, so did id Software, changing forever the perception of what can be achieved. That's a given. In that they were pioneers, hardly inventors but I bet there was some level of it (invention/craftmanship I mean) in their implementation routines.

 

I guess I'm too used to see people (I don't mean you I mean around my workplace) claiming they invented something when in reality it is usually a pretty low hanging fruit (albeit sometimes a necessary one) and get all the credit when the actual inventor (not me, I hardly invented anything) get marginalized if not outright forgotten completely.

Edited by phoenixdownita

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I guess the "why" is probably because people mocking him earlier; implying it was all photoshopped or CJ saying it was only ST-worthy at best. He's well-aware it's not in a playable state, but it's safe to say it's not photoshopped.

 

 

This. Peolpe wanted him to show anything, at least a screenshot, he uploaded the pics, and people were saying they might be mockups. Now he releases a video, and people ask "why"?. And people are saying this proves nothing, that they dont know how this could become a game... he did this on just a weekend, it sure as hell wont resemble anything close to a playable game, hes stated it like 20 times, so far its a proof of concept, as he calls it. Hes said he is also curious were this goes, and if at the end it just wont work, hes gonna stop working on it... and if thats the case, at least he gave it a shot, right?

 

Anyways, i havent forgotten that other posters mentined they were working on "Tomb Raider" (Tomb Raider is 99% done!!) and a "Star Trek" game on the Jaggy, they even showed screenshots, i wonder if they could lend PlayWithWolves a binary, so he can upload a video too.

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Anyways, i havent forgotten that other posters mentined they were working on "Tomb Raider" (Tomb Raider is 99% done!!) and a "Star Trek" game on the Jaggy, they even showed screenshots, i wonder if they could lend PlayWithWolves a binary, so he can upload a video too.

 

Can't take a joke, eh?

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Of course, there is still a lot of effort to get it to playable state. I do not dispute that at all !

 

I wouldn't even pay attention to it. Even if you get a perfect port of RR these guys are going to say "I still can't get no sense of blah blah blah..." When Charleton Heston himself entered a Charleton Heston look-alike contest these are the guys that pointed at him and said "oh come on that looks nothing like him*..."

 

*I think it was Charleton Heston who entered his own lookalike contest and got naysayed by those who didn't know it was him. But I am not sure. Maybe it was Clint Eastwood. Or someone else...

 

Edited by JagChris

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I wouldn't even pay attention to it. Even if you get a perfect port of RR these guys are going to say "I still can't get no sense of blah blah blah..." When Charleton Heston himself entered a Charleton Heston look-alike contest these are the guys that pointed at him and said "oh come on that looks nothing like him*..."

 

The problem is that he did pay attention to it, and he took a shit attitude with everyone instead of brushing it off. The Reboot guys can be harsh at times, but when you talk things up like it's the second coming of Christ, again, and again, and again--yet fail to deliver--really, what would you expect from people that actually do deliver? All he did is make himself look like a prick, especially in the post against Sh3. I personally don't care what he manages to pull off. He's just another prima donna, and no one wants that around here.

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I wouldn't even pay attention to it. Even if you get a perfect port of RR these guys are going to say "I still can't get no sense of blah blah blah..." When Charleton Heston himself entered a Charleton Heston look-alike contest these are the guys that pointed at him and said "oh come on that looks nothing like him*..."

 

 

Your use of a double negative aside, I can't help but feel you're referring to me with that comment. So you don't think I have a valid point? Again, I appreciate the effort and what's been shown of both this and the Hero engine, but both are a long, long way from anything resembling a game. They show that he can indeed program something on the Jaguar, but not that we're anywhere near an actual end product that proves anything new (and it's not outsiders who are making 60 fps claims, it's him). And your statement of a "perfect port of RR" is rather ridiculous. Of course that would change perceptions. Heck, even one roughly close to half the performance of RR - which would be above and beyond what could realistically be expected of a final product of a lone coder - would be just fine.

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Anyways, i havent forgotten that other posters mentined they were working on "Tomb Raider" (Tomb Raider is 99% done!!)

Yes, please don't forget that. My poorly photoshopped picture was meant to be serious and I was also very serious that I ported a full CD game to a Jaguar cart. Make sure you hold me accountable for what I said that clearly wasn't sarcastic at all.

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Your use of a double negative aside, I can't help but feel you're referring to me with that comment. So you don't think I have a valid point? Again, I appreciate the effort and what's been shown of both this and the Hero engine, but both are a long, long way from anything resembling a game. They show that he can indeed program something on the Jaguar, but not that we're anywhere near an actual end product that proves anything new (and it's not outsiders who are making 60 fps claims, it's him). And your statement of a "perfect port of RR" is rather ridiculous. Of course that would change perceptions. Heck, even one roughly close to half the performance of RR - which would be above and beyond what could realistically be expected of a final product of a lone coder - would be just fine.

No worries - Jag Chris has a history of clinging to badass jad coderz like Gorf and VladR and defending them to no end due to their mad skillz. Nothing changes here, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Been through it since 94, saw all the T-Bird drama, the Gorf drama, blah blah blah.

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No worries - Jag Chris has a history of clinging to badass jad coderz like Gorf and VladR and defending them to no end due to their mad skillz. Nothing changes here, rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Been through it since 94, saw all the T-Bird drama, the Gorf drama, blah blah blah.

 

To each their own.

 

We should concentrate on having fun in this thread and not arguing.

Edited by JagChris
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Sorry, I meant Club Drive. I had to go over all of them again to see which one it actually was. Club Drive is free-roaming, while WTR and CF look like both are just corridors (e.g. like NFS).

 

On the other hand, having watched WTR on YT, WTR with its textured buildings and road looks - purely from engine perspective - like a step up from RR (which has sprites for cars/props). Visually, RR looks better of course (nicer textures).

 

 

World Tour Racing you can spin out and see the track behind and in front of you. In either Road Rash or NFS you seem to only face and be able to see forward.

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NFS 2015:

a new dimension of moving on rails

 

(hahaah loool.. lesson to move forward)

 

2.jpg

Edited by Otto1980

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This. Peolpe wanted him to show anything, at least a screenshot, he uploaded the pics, and people were saying they might be mockups. Now he releases a video, and people ask "why"?

Not this. People didn't necessarily want anything at all. What they did not want was more of the same meaningless emulator "proof".

 

What people want anyone (not just him) to show, is something that can be viewed and assessed in some kind of meaningful context. The why is not "lol, why did you even do this?", the why is "why am I watching this video of a routine under emulation, on what we now know is a beefy i7 PC that seems to be struggling" when that situation is entirely avoidable.

 

Pointless.

 

Do you think there might possibly be a reason for his over-reactive meltdown, laden with all the effs and hate and whatnot, the one that had to be deleted but remains preserved as quoted. The one that came in response when I pointed out that at least 4 users here have the ability to capture frame-by-frame accurate RGB Jaguar hardware output that would be unequivocal in the evidence provided vs any claims made?

 

Ask yourself this - why would that be? What would anyone possibly have against that?

Maybe because it wouldn't suit his narrative as it'd shoot down his hyperbolic self-promotion on the spot when the actual results on hardware expose the reality of the situation?

 

Given his history, you don't even see this as a possibility?

 

At this point it's little more than a troll, designed to mislead the technically-bereft gamer into believing black is white.

 

And people are saying this proves nothing, that they dont know how this could become a game... he did this on just a weekend

 

You make vague claims but offer no specific examples. Who said that? From a technical perspective, it proves nothing, it only prompts further questions - and this suits his tried and tested modus operandi. As for all done on a weekend - believe what you will - he's been championing his texture mapping routines for the best part of the year, the claims of them running at 60fps are nothing new to this or any other AA thread. That he has taken it upon himself to appear here, restate them and proceed to follow the same well-worn path of not-Hero and not-Klax, which barely even raised an eyebrow to those who know better, just sighs and a collective shaking of heads. But then we're not his intended audience. That would be the likes of yourself who do not know better are therefore easy prey.

 

so far its a proof of concept, as he calls it. Hes said he is also curious were this goes, and if at the end it just wont work, hes gonna stop working on it... and if thats the case, at least he gave it a shot, right?

But why the same old song and dance? Most people don't require the spotlight to be on them before working on a few routines, they just get their head down and crack on then present something when its ready with no obfustication or smoke and mirrors.

 

A history of no game output.

 

A history of riling up trouble.

 

A history of claiming to be able to do x in y weekends.

 

None of this seems at all familiar to you?

 

He will do what he always does - emoragequit in as loud and obnoxious manner as possible, point fingers on the way out and spend the next 12 months slagging off AA and all who sail in her.

 

Vladr be like:

 

4HhNj6t.gif

 

LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! DON'T LOOK AT HIM! LOOK AT ME! WOO WOO I'M THE BEST LOOK AT ME!

 

...without even an inkling as to how ridiculous it looks... as the rest look on knowingly.

Edited by sh3-rg
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Come on, those buildings are falling off the edge of a conveyor belt. This is the best klax ever ☺

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Not this. People didn't necessarily want anything at all. What they did not want was more of the same meaningless emulator "proof".

What people want anyone (not just him) to show, is something that can be viewed and assessed in some kind of meaningful context. The why is not "lol, why did you even do this?", the why is "why am I watching this video of a routine under emulation, on what we now know is a beefy i7 PC that seems to be struggling" when that situation is entirely avoidable.

Pointless.

 

Are you this petty all the time, or just in this thread? And, you couldn't even reply to me directly after baiting me for information (which I freely gave)?

 

Unlike everyone else, I took a different route with VladR's bragging on his engine: I actually helped by removing one obstacle. "Here's the art, now show me what you can do." It's interesting to see so many people change their tune about seeing a demo now that a demo has been released. Oh, but wait! It's not a real demo! Because at this stage that matters so very much.

 

No, I'm not a VladR fanboy nor do I approve of his abrasive posts. On the other hand, I recognize there was a lot of antagonizing on both sides of this battle. I'd probably feel pretty defensive too if the whole Reboot team, and friends, attacked me relentlessly. I think all of you need to figure out how to use the "ignore" feature, VladR included.

 

This was an amusing endeavor for me, whether VladR failed miserably or succeeded fantastically. I don't know how, but this board managed to turn a fun win/win scenario into huge pile of crap. VladR and I working on this hurt absolutely no one and might have even come up with something interesting, yet here we are.

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Your use of a double negative aside, I can't help but feel you're referring to me with that comment. So you don't think I have a valid point?

 

FWiW, I think you voiced something many of us wondered--myself included. A lot needs to happen before that point disappears.

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Are you this petty all the time, or just in this thread? And, you couldn't even reply to me directly after baiting me for information (which I freely gave)?

He's like that all the time. Probably was already born like that, which means we should still try to be nice and tolerant to him. It's not his fault he's wired that way :)

 

 

 

Unlike everyone else, I took a different route with VladR's bragging on his engine: I actually helped by removing one obstacle. "Here's the art, now show me what you can do." It's interesting to see so many people change their tune about seeing a demo now that a demo has been released. Oh, but wait! It's not a real demo! Because at this stage that matters so very much.

Heh, I expected that exact reaction from them. It's the only tune they can sing. It's so funny, they all claim to "know" about development, yet actually expect a full-blown working demo after one weekend of work - they are all reaaaaal pro coders for sure, right : - )))))))))))

 

I can guarantee you that even when I spend the additional effort and it will be fully playable, they will still bitch about some details, as it wasn't done by reboot and that's blasphemy ! They think we do not see that attitude in all of their posts.

 

Yet somehow, we do not spam hundreds of posts by ridiculing that effort.

 

Perhaps we should start and have some fun too ?

 

 

This was an amusing endeavor for me, whether VladR failed miserably or succeeded fantastically. I don't know how, but this board managed to turn a fun win/win scenario into huge pile of crap. VladR and I working on this hurt absolutely no one and might have even come up with something interesting, yet here we are.

 

Well, this is AA. Nothing changes here. Every time someone wants to do something that is not sub-8-bit on jag, reboot camp comes pathetically screaming, yelling all over them - "oh no, there can be only one" and boast their -ehm- "jag-worthy" "releases" :)

Business as usual :)

 

Notice how disappointed they are that I didn't "rage-quit". A proper kindergarten melodrama :)

 

 

No, I'm not a VladR fanboy nor do I approve of his abrasive posts. On the other hand, I recognize there was a lot of antagonizing on both sides of this battle. I'd probably feel pretty defensive too if the whole Reboot team, and friends, attacked me relentlessly. I think all of you need to figure out how to use the "ignore" feature, VladR included.

 

I believe that by now you are beginning to understand why I am so "abrasive" against them. You have so far spent only couple hrs working on the art assets. Now imagine the effort multiplied by a factor of hundred or a thousand (easily with coding a 3D engine) :)

 

 

Unlike them, I actually want to see something more advanced on jaguar. I am even willing to spend hundreds of hours it took me to get with my engine in C to this stage.

 

And for that, they want to crucify me. May God have mercy with their dark souls...

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