Could Road Rash (3DO) be ported to the Jaguar?

[Gunstar]

Streaming from CD can result in a terrible player's experience. The game halts, CD spins, keeps trying to read a sector, but can't, so it spins and spins and then - after 5 seconds of being halted - throws an error message.

 

Imagine that in the middle of a curve in NFS. Yes, as long as CD player and medium are clean and in working condition, it can work. I would personally prefer less varied environment, but be guaranteed it would never halt in the middle of the game.

 

Plus, of course, once you devote large portion of 2 MB to streaming buffer, you then must stream almost everything...

Yes, I realize this as a problem from personal experience. My first 3DO that I had for about a year back in '96/97 was a crappy Goldstar system and it started acting up and any of the 3DO games that used a streaming engine like RR and NSF became unplayable. I then got a Panasonic FZ-1 replacement which I've rarely had this problem with, except on occasion when the laser eye needed cleaning. I remember the day I got the FZ-1 fondly as me and my buddy got back home, and we took the Goldstar unit out into the driveway and smashed it up ala 'Office Space' when they smashed the old printer...that was fun.

 

Anyway, that's why suggested before just doing a suped-up Genesis style Road Rash on the Jag, then it could be on cartridge anyway, and could have a much better frame rate than either Genesis or 3DO RR's. There could still be huge roadside buildings like in 3DO RR, but done with closely placed sprites similar to what Super Burnout does with buildings and grand stands, and trees, and big rocks like on SB's Australia track. If they were drawn with the right perspective, it could be nearly seamless. Or, if a mostly 2D engine was used, the Jag could handle a few fully textured polygon buildings along the road side, similar to Battlemorph being mostly Goraud shaded polygons with some fully textured buildings and still being a pretty smooth frame-rate. And even more-so if everything else is 2D.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

Oh, you mean something like Interstate 76 ? Guns on a car ? That would probably suck in a corridor-like environment like SuperBurnout/NFS/RR.

 

That could actually be "inserted" into game like Checkered Flag (hope I got the name right, as I keep mixing those 2 racing games on jag ), as it is free-roaming and flat-shaded.

 

Now THAT would be a fun mod.

It wouldn't be any different than the fighting that you do in 3DO or Genesis Road Rash's. It works ok for them, so I don't see why the same concept couldn't be done on the Jag. I've never played Interstate 76, so I don't know what you are referring to there, but I think LianneJaguar64 is merely taling about the same combat system that are in Genesis and 3DO Road Rash.

[LianneJaguar64]

Oh, you mean something like Interstate 76 ? Guns on a car ? That would probably suck in a corridor-like environment like SuperBurnout/NFS/RR.

 

That could actually be "inserted" into game like Checkered Flag (hope I got the name right, as I keep mixing those 2 racing games on jag ), as it is free-roaming and flat-shaded.

 

Now THAT would be a fun mod.

Well Road Rash is also a motorbike game that plays in a similar manner at it's core, so I reckon it could work...

[VladR]

It wouldn't be any different than the fighting that you do in 3DO or Genesis Road Rash's. It works ok for them, so I don't see why the same concept couldn't be done on the Jag. I've never played Interstate 76, so I don't know what you are referring to there, but I think LianneJaguar64 is merely taling about the same combat system that are in Genesis and 3DO Road Rash.

Oh, that single frame of punch - the 'combat'

 

Yes, of course, Jag can handle one additional animation frame.

 

Now, Interstate '76 even matches the visual style of Jaguar - flat-shading and/or very simple textures (terrain looks like it's procedurally textured - something GPU/DSP are good at).

 

Interstate '76:

 

That's the one car combat game Jag should have as its visual style plays exactly to jag's strengths.

[Gunstar]

Oh, you mean something like Interstate 76 ? Guns on a car ? That would probably suck in a corridor-like environment like SuperBurnout/NFS/RR.

 

That could actually be "inserted" into game like Checkered Flag (hope I got the name right, as I keep mixing those 2 racing games on jag ), as it is free-roaming and flat-shaded.

 

Now THAT would be a fun mod.

I think you might be thinking of World Tour Racing? CF is quite choppy in the frame-rate, so a lot of re-writing of the basic game engine would be required. WTR while not great, has a much better frame-rate than CF. Though you mention flat-shading, and WTR is textured polygons on the roadside and Goraud shaded and minimally textured cars. But the buildings in WTR only have 2 sides to them like fake movie props.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

Oh, that single frame of punch - the 'combat'

 

Yes, of course, Jag can handle one additional animation frame.

 

Now, Interstate '76 even matches the visual style of Jaguar - flat-shading and/or very simple textures (terrain looks like it's procedurally textured - something GPU/DSP are good at).

 

Interstate '76:

 

That's the one car combat game Jag should have as its visual style plays exactly to jag's strengths.

Well, I wouldn't use Checkered Flag as a starting point, the Jag could do much better flat-shaded polys than that, but yes, I agree that Interstate 76 could be done on the Jag. The frame-rate looks about the same as 3DO NFS and if using flat-shaded/Goraud shaded polygons on the Jag I think you are right that this game is well suited for the Jag. (sorry if I am spelling "garaud/goraud" wrong, I never can remember how that word is spelled correctly and spell checker doesn't help there)

 

The game could probably be done even better using a voxel/height-field engine like PhaseZero demo or that Fallen Angels home-brew game or the various other Jag demos like Mars Rover.

 

Was Interstate 76 a PC game? or was it on any consoles? I want to play this game. The cockpit view reminds me of the Atari Lynx's Battle Wheels by Beyond Games (the guys who did Ultra Vortex on the Lynx and Ultra Vortek on the Jag), they were planning on doing a Jag version of the game, before the writing was on the wall as to the Jag's demise.

 

An improved Club Drive engine might work here, I think the source-code exists...

Edited November 3, 2015 by Gunstar

[VladR]

I think you might be thinking of World Tour Racing? CF is quite choppy in the frame-rate, so a lot of re-writing of the basic game engine would be required. WTR while not great, has a much better frame-rate than CF. Though you mention flat-shading, and WTR is textured polygons on the roadside and Goraud shaded and minimally textured cars. But the buildings in WTR only have 2 sides to them like fake movie props.

Sorry, I meant Club Drive. I had to go over all of them again to see which one it actually was. Club Drive is free-roaming, while WTR and CF look like both are just corridors (e.g. like NFS).

 

On the other hand, having watched WTR on YT, WTR with its textured buildings and road looks - purely from engine perspective - like a step up from RR (which has sprites for cars/props). Visually, RR looks better of course (nicer textures).

[VladR]

The game could probably be done even better using a voxel/height-field engine like PhaseZero demo or that Fallen Angels home-brew game or the various other Jag demos like Mars Rover.

 

Was Interstate 76 a PC game? or was it on any consoles? I want to play this game. The cockpit view reminds me of the Atari Lynx's Battle Wheels by Beyond Games (the guys who did Ultra Vortex on the Lynx and Ultra Vortek on the Jag), they were planning on doing a Jag version of the game, before the writing was on the wall as to the Jag's demise.

Interstate '76 was a PC game. It had a fantastic local multiplayer over the cable. We have instantly forgotten about Doom / Quake MP once we tried I-76 locally.

I have actually - regularly- hauled my whole PC, in winter, over snow, about 4 kilometres (from the bus stop - the total walking distance from the 2 stops was over 10 kilometres :-) ), in my bare freezing hands (around -15'C), just to go play this with my friend. So, yeah - the game was really good :-)

 

It was a completely new experience. Huge, open world, adrenaline chases over the hills, super-long jumps during which you could, with a mouse, rotate the cannon around and even destroy opponent while you were still in the middle of the air (rare, but happened), frantic close combat.

 

A game like this would certainly work on Jaguar and both play to its strengths AND play awesome. Trust me, in the middle of the chase, the last thing you paid attention to, was whether the hill is textured or not

[sd32]

Interstate '76 seems like a really fun and cool game, its a shame it didnt get ported to any console BITD.

 

Now that you guys mentioned Club Drive... the game design is pretty boring, the car physics suck, music is lame, and it has always been a laughing stock due to its untextured, flat shadded graphics...kids in youtube laugh at it saying even the NES could do a better 3d engine. But the graphical engine is actually one of its only good points IMHO. I mean, there arent many games on the Jaguar, 32X or 3DOs libraries, with the combination of freedom of movement, and complexity of the San Francisco and House levels of Club Drive. 3DOs Blade Force comes to mind, which is fully textured and very smooth, although it uses sprites for some stuff. The game is a late release for 3DO and it shows, very impressive. But back to Club Dive:

 

The House level reminds me a lot of the first level on Toy Story 2 for the PS1 and N64. Hell, you even get to collect things like in most 3d platformers, hehe. It also reminds me a bit of Toy Commander on the Dreamcast. I always get the feeling that there was potential to do something nice with that level.

 

The San Francisco level is also very cool, you get to cross the bridge, enter the city, drive some city blocks, there is a park, a tunel, and you get to drive around the beach a bit. And terrain aint flat. Its cool enugh to have a little Twisted Metal type action on it. We know the engine allows for one more vehicle (or cat ), without a big hit in performance.

 

So, everything is polygonal, there is very litle popup, the framerate seems just a bit lower than most 3DO driving games, and the freedom of movement and track complexity are very nice. People act like texturemapping is the "be-all, end-all", but if by ditching it, you can get more complex levels, i think depending on the case, its a fair trade-off.

 

So, yeah, i do find Club Drives engine kinda nice. The game i dont like though, there could have been better polygon artwork, better use of colors, controls suck, car driving physics sucks, music sucks, gameplay sucks...

 

Then again, that just my point of view as a gamer with zero coding knowledge, maybe the engine indeed sucks and even the NES can pull it off .

Edited November 4, 2015 by sd32

[Lost Dragon]

Blade Force was quoted by Edge (i think) as 30 FPS....

Shockwave was the 3DO title ATD are quoted as saying impressed Atari to the point they wanted everything fully textured in Battlemorph...

Imagitec had told Gamesmaster magazine, that Atari simply went into complete and utter mental mode, wanting lots of textures, lighting effects etc to compete with PS1/Saturn...but did'nt quote any specific titles.Pity i'd of liked to know which other PS1/Saturn titles Atari thought were the bench mark games.

[LianneJaguar64]

 

Blade Force was quoted by Edge (i think) as 30 FPS....

 

 

Shockwave was the 3DO title ATD are quoted as saying impressed Atari to the point they wanted everything fully textured in Battlemorph...

 

Imagitec had told Gamesmaster magazine, that Atari simply went into complete and utter mental mode, wanting lots of textures, lighting effects etc to compete with PS1/Saturn...but did'nt quote any specific titles.Pity i'd of liked to know which other PS1/Saturn titles Atari thought were the bench mark games.

Bubsy 3D 'D

[Gunstar]

 

Blade Force was quoted by Edge (i think) as 30 FPS....

Shockwave was the 3DO title ATD are quoted as saying impressed Atari to the point they wanted everything fully textured in Battlemorph...

Imagitec had told Gamesmaster magazine, that Atari simply went into complete and utter mental mode, wanting lots of textures, lighting effects etc to compete with PS1/Saturn...but did'nt quote any specific titles.Pity i'd of liked to know which other PS1/Saturn titles Atari thought were the bench mark games.

 

Well, I own Bladeforce and Zero5, and Zero5 was quoted by the programmer at running at 30fps on NTSC machines, and Bladeforce does not seem to be as smooth to me as Zero5. It wouldn't be the first time Edge or other mags misquoted or made stuff up. Was it a direct quote from the programmers of Bladeforce? I'll see if I can find it, but I think I remember magazine ads and previews/reviews stating 24fps back in the day. But maybe I am mixing up 3DO game ads/reviews and it was another 3DO game being touted as running at 24fps. If a game did reach 24fps back then, it was bragged about.

 

As to Shockwave impressing Atari, well, as has been stated from many sources Atari management didn't have a clue about gaming anyway. And yes, Shockwave did look good back then with all it's textures, but if critically examined now, it's easy to see how sparse the terrain and other polygons really are, it's definitely not pushing the 3DO's 3D power. On the other hand, Bladeforce is much more impressive, whether it's running at 24 or 30fps and does look like it's fully utilizing the 3DO's power.

 

Yes, it's been stated by multiple sources that Atari was pushing all developers to texture everything, Teque said the same thing about WTR and how they wished Atari had just let them garaud shade everything as they could have had WTR running at 30fps if that were the case. They even started rewriting the 3D engine to compensate and Teque said the new engine, with textures would have been a lot smoother, but that Atari insisted on rushing the game to market, so they never got the chance to implement the improved engine. The reason Teque added in the road texture toggle (8 on the keypad) was to help improve the frame rate a bit; apparently they did sneak that past Atari. I remember other developers talking about Atari wanting everything textured too, but I can't remember who off hand.

 

It's amazing that Atari released Imagitec's I-war without it being fully textured. I'd hate to have seen how low the frame rate would have been if it was fully textured. The beta version of the game had an option to turn off ALL textures in I-war, there's a secret code in the game that show that option on one of the menus, but it's disabled in the final version. Carl Forhan of Songbird has/had the beta and he said that option was available in the beta without a code, and it did work. I don't recall if he said how much of an improvement it actually made though. Atari must have caught that one and made Imagitec disable it in the final version. Though I don't really know why, Atari should have allowed that option in games, then they could have still had all those pretty textures to show off in their magazine ads, but still allow gamers to choose prettier graphcis, or a smoother frame-rate in the end. There is a secret code in HoverStrike, in the cart version it changes all the textures to crazy looking, sort of like the Predator's Cloak mode in AvP, but in the CD version, it's actually very cool, as it strips the graphics down to wire-frame and you can play the game at a full 60fps. It think this was put in by the coders, not only as a secret option to speed the game up, but also as a tribute the Battlezone, since HS was originally going to be Battlesone 2000 until they moved too far from what Battlezone was, with the hover craft, etc.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Gunstar

[Lost Dragon]

EDGE are among THE worst of UK Press to constantly get things wrong/get corrected or simply make things up.On Jaguar alone Darryl Still wrote in and corrected them regarding a report they made at an Atari showing on a Press Event, Core Design's PR told them the Tomb Raider screens were fakes-Edge prints them as actual Jag CD screens in the Atari supplement, they made claims up about Rebellions plans for Jag CD development etc etc.

 

The next interview i'll be putting up online is the coder Edge just made up quotes from and made out he was a Ninja Sega saturn coder, he hardly touched it.

 

It's been shocking to discover the amount of crap Edge got away with claiming over the years.

 

 

Imagitec, Tiertex, ATD, Missile Command 3D, WTR etc etc coders have spoken of the 'madness' that descended on Atari wanting to compete with PS1/Saturn in terms of Texture-mapped 3D, no matter how the frame rate suffered, probably more stories out there to be found.....but those which are there, paint a decent enough picture.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[VladR]

Holy crap. Intentionally disabling an already working cheat code to allow the gamer to decide for himself.

 

Well, that's a new low, for sure.

 

I totally understand the time pressures, the seasonal deadlines - that is all a standard part of game industry (regardless of a platform).

 

But this...

[Lost Dragon]

:-) This is Atari who did'nt want HMS version of Battlezone 2000, instead wanting the wire frame original, on the Lynx, cue their (superior) version being hidden away as an easter egg on the cart.

 

When i look back at some of the decisions Atari made and how they were seemingly driven by marketing and desire to compete again'st superior platforms...i just come away wondering why i invested in a Jaguar on day 1.

 

In hindsight i should of waited, picked one up when they were being sold for £25 new over here and dived in and snapped up the games and cut down prices.

[+madman]

Though it might be fun to discuss. Another World was ported so "never say never." We all know 8 and 16 bit games can be ported to the Jaguar so why not do the math and speculate whether or not it could handle a game on a 32 bit contemporary that Atari's marketing claimed to be superior to. Lets email EA and ask for the source code

Makes sense. Soccer Kid was ported, so never say never that Ridge Racer won't be ported to Jaguar. Courtesy of the unharnessed power, of course.

[+xucaen]

Discussions about ports spark the imagination and get people to thinking about what kinds of games could be possible on the console. There is great value in these kinds of discussions to the ones who love the system and want to see new games made for it. In a software development company, these kinds of conversations would be called brainstorming sessions. I just don't understand why some people who claim they love the Jaguar want to see these kinds of conversations put down.

[+madman]

Discussions about ports spark the imagination and get people to thinking about what kinds of games could be possible on the console. There is great value in these kinds of discussions to the ones who love the system and want to see new games made for it. In a software development company, these kinds of conversations would be called brainstorming sessions. I just don't understand why some people who claim they love the Jaguar want to see these kinds of conversations put down.

Because there are things that are not actually possible. Most of these discussions of ports are lead by people who have zero programming background and even less knowledge of the Jag's hardware. Look at the manual for the 3DO version of Road Rash online. You really think some homebrewer will duplicate the work of a full time team? Reverse engineering Road Rash from scratch? We aren't talking about 2600 or 7800 homebrew here (no disrespect to those folks). Pier Solar is probably the first modern indie game on a 16-bit (or greater) platform that I've seen rival commercial games. There are also great indie games for the Neo Geo. Imagination is great, but you have to separate fantasy from reality. What makes you think that a Road Rash 3DO port will ever happen on the Jaguar? What software development company is having brainstorming sessions about the Jaguar in 2015? I support all new homebrew Jag games, but I certainly don't expect a Road Rash port.

[Gunstar]

Discussions about ports spark the imagination and get people to thinking about what kinds of games could be possible on the console. There is great value in these kinds of discussions to the ones who love the system and want to see new games made for it. In a software development company, these kinds of conversations would be called brainstorming sessions. I just don't understand why some people who claim they love the Jaguar want to see these kinds of conversations put down.

You are wasting your time, I've been through this with this guy over and over and over, and he'll keep interrupting discussions with the same old ""what's the point" crap disrespecting those who want to have discussions like this, disrespecting people like games he doesn't and telling you that your crazy or a moron or what ever for finding enjoyment in games he considers crap, just because he is a resident troll. Just put him on ignore.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Gunstar

[+madman]

You are wasting your time, I've been through this with this guy over and over and over, and he'll keep interrupting discussions with the same old ""what's the point" crap disrespecting those who want to have discussions like this, disrespecting people like games he doesn't and telling you that your crazy or a moron or what ever for finding enjoyment in games he considers crap, just because he is a resident troll. Just put him on ignore.

I thought you had me on ignore? How do you know xucaen was talking to me? Why didn't you answer my post about your technical background? Can you explain again how you "get it" and I don't?

[phoenixdownita]

Any ports, all ports, do they have to run on bare Jag or can they be "helped" like:

http://spritesmods.com/?art=veccart&page=5

 

If it's possible to use a complex CPU/FPGA board (with SD) and use the Jag for rendering and I/O would that not be acceptable?

In which case the answer is YES, the Jag can have a very decent port of pretty much anything, worse comes to worst one can use the 32x scheme and also have a separate video mixer and extra audio etc...

 

EDIT: keep in mind that a whole Rpi is only 35US$, and there's even cheaper alternatives so fathoming one of those put in a cart (a la special SNES chip with memory and all) is not so far out. The problem is who's going to do it?

Edited November 5, 2015 by phoenixdownita

[Bill Loguidice]

Any ports, all ports, do they have to run on bare Jag or can they be "helped" like:

http://spritesmods.com/?art=veccart&page=5

 

If it's possible to use a complex CPU/FPGA board (with SD) and use the Jag for rendering and I/O would that not be acceptable?

In which case the answer is YES, the Jag can have a very decent port of pretty much anything, worse comes to worst one can use the 32x scheme and also have a separate video mixer and extra audio etc...

 

EDIT: keep in mind that a whole Rpi is only 35US$, and there's even cheaper alternatives so fathoming one of those put in a cart (a la special SNES chip with memory and all) is not so far out. The problem is who's going to do it?

 

The question is why? Using a Jaguar as an AV and controller output has no particular value that I can see. If you're going to use a Raspberry Pi anyway, its HDMI output is superior to what the Jaguar can do and if you want to use a Jaguar controller, it would be far easier just to create a USB adapter (I recently received this, which does tons of systems, although not yet the Jaguar).

 

I'm familiar with the Vectrex demo you linked to. I'm also familiar with similar things done on old computers, like the Commodore PET, where you interface a smartphone so you can use the smartphone's camera and display (heavily pixelated) video in real-time on the PET. They're fun technical demos, but serve no practical purpose for gaming (although I'll give that in the Vectrex's case, it has a unique display to leverage). If you're suggesting something like a 32X, SGM, or XM for the Jaguar, then I think the discussion becomes a bit more interesting. However, as was stated earlier, I think we can all agree that creating 16-bit quality homebrews is difficult enough, let alone 32-bit quality homebrews, so again, I'm not sure what we'd gain by such a hypothetical enhancement. I think we can also all agree that just getting more homebrews that take reasonable advantage of the Jaguar's core capabilities, like Another World/Out of this World, would be wonderful enough, i.e., no reason to introduce additional complexity into the equation.

[phoenixdownita]

The question is why? Using a Jaguar as an AV and controller output has no particular value that I can see. If you're going to use a Raspberry Pi anyway, its HDMI output is superior to what the Jaguar can do and if you want to use a Jaguar controller, it would be far easier just to create a USB adapter (I recently received this, which does tons of systems, although not yet the Jaguar).

 

I'm familiar with the Vectrex demo you linked to. I'm also familiar with similar things done on old computers, like the Commodore PET, where you interface a smartphone so you can use the smartphone's camera and display (heavily pixelated) video in real-time on the PET. They're fun technical demos, but serve no practical purpose for gaming (although I'll give that in the Vectrex's case, it has a unique display to leverage). If you're suggesting something like a 32X, SGM, or XM for the Jaguar, then I think the discussion becomes a bit more interesting. However, as was stated earlier, I think we can all agree that creating 16-bit quality homebrews is difficult enough, let alone 32-bit quality homebrews, so again, I'm not sure what we'd gain by such a hypothetical enhancement. I think we can also all agree that just getting more homebrews that take reasonable advantage of the Jaguar's core capabilities, like Another World/Out of this World, would be wonderful enough, i.e., no reason to introduce additional complexity into the equation.

My point was more about have some sort of enhancement chips a la SNES with some additional ram and maybe SD card access to add some much needed 3D capabilities and some faster streaming, there's only 25K CDROM units produced worldwide so that should not be really an option for streaming.

 

After all the SNES got quite a few nice games on SuperFX, and SA1, the 32x albeit not a monster has a few nice addition to the Genesis library.

In both cases (via different means) the host console is still used (background, extra music channels, IO processing), if the "add-on" made it easier to perform 3D + streaming it would certainly help in the direction of porting.

 

I wasn't proposing to literally drop in a RPi, just that costs of relatively powerful CPU is not too bad these days.

I mean the SNES is still the SNES even with the enhancement chips.

 

WRT colorful 2D homebrews I'm with you, not sure though that modern development should really put up with only 2MB of RAM if possible but a lot should be achievable as it is.

Unfortunately the crippling bugs wrt main memory jump access especially from Tom seriously limits what can be done, swapping kernels in cache all the time gets old soon and consumes resources for no other good reason than work around hw bugs.

[+CyranoJ]

That was seriously the most wordy, long winded version of 'GPU IN MAIN' I have ever read.

[phoenixdownita]

That was seriously the most wordy, long winded version of 'GPU IN MAIN' I have ever read.

... given you have actual experience coding it (me not so much, hence the long winded non-explanation), if the "GPU IN MAIN" was working, would it have made a big difference BITD or the declared 4x slow down still would have seriously limited the possibilities?