Emulating through web browser or emulating online

[+rdemming]

Other alternative is get the original programmers Altirra or Atari800WinPlus to produce modified versions that support client-server setup and do this encryption that only allows it play on these modified emulators. Can still stream the Atari screen output from a program running on the server. Still have to see whats possible.

 

I don't think streaming games is a good user experience. Could be one of the reasons that the online game streaming service OnLive is now defunct

 

Running encrypted games locally using a special emulator would be a better user experience but as the game needs to be decrypted before it can be run, it can also be hacked. And because of the open-source nature of the existing Atari emulators it would be very easy to figure out how to decrypt the game, unless you would create a closed source emulator which would make hacking it a bit more difficult. And as mentioned before, creating a closed source emulator derived from an open source emulator is a big no no so you need to create such emulator from scratch yourself.

[gozar]

Since you asked me publicly, I'll respond publicly: no. I have no problems with people getting paid for their work or even online streaming, but I find the motivation behind this to be rather disrespectful to the community that would (a) be the market who might actually buy the software and (b) made possible the emulators that you mention here and also make development of that software easier or even possible. I have no intention of cooperating directly or indirectly with vendors that have such a caustic attitude.

 

 

(bolded emphasis added)

 

Peteym5, this is the problem. I don't know who has convinced you that your work will immediately get pirated, but they did a heck of a job. Could you point out one instance of Tempest Extreme or Venture being pirated and distributed (I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, but it's not widespread). The fact that they haven't been pirated has nothing to do with the fact they are on cartridge (which is easy to pirate). It's the fact that the 8-bit community (and the 2600 community for that matter) respect creators and believe in following their wishes.

 

My latest purchase was Atarinet by Slor. I bought it, site unseen (I didn't know the game it was based on) because I know Slor values and respects the community. Same with Dungeon Hunt. I've also donated to FJC for his work in the community.

 

From what I know about Video61, his sales are honorable, helping those in need with a job, but, I believe his insistence on cartridges has little to do with piracy and more about profit margins. Selling $10 worth of parts for $40 makes more per sale than $5 downloads.

 

Instead of spending time on pursuits such as the thread topic, why don't you finish a game such as Laserblast and put it up for sale on cartridge or download (gumroad.com could help with this). I liked Laserblast on the 2600, until I figured out the pattern and the game got boring, quickly. Don't involve other entities, and if you need help with the cartridge manufacturing, the community would be more than willing to help.

[popmilo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Altirra written in C ?

In that case it could be compiled to Javascript using Emscripten ?

[peteym5]

I never said Tempest or Venture had been pirated. If they did, people are not talking about it here. There had been other bad experiences that happened in the past that has made us more cautious. Over a decade ago a few programmers were working on Lorelords for the Atari 8-bit for Video 61. Atari started the game, but never finished, Video61 has the source code. When the project was almost complete, one of the programmers decided to rename the game and sell this "Castle Crisis" game on their own. Now that is why now we have to do non-disclosure agreements unless it is someone we had been trusting for years.

 

We have most of the stuff we need to manufacture the cartridges. I had asked many times before for assistance with finding ways to reduce costs on manufacturing some of the stuff.

 

Work for Laser Blast is going forward along with several other games that fit onto a 16K cartridge.

Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5

[+MrFish]

I never said Tempest or Venture had been pirated. If they did, people are not talking about it here. There had been other bad experiences that happened in the past that has made us more cautious. Over a decade ago a few programmers were working on Lorelords for the Atari 8-bit for Video 61. Atari started the game, but never finished, Video61 has the source code. When the project was almost complete, one of the programmers decided to rename the game and sell this "Castle Crisis" game on their own. Now that is why now we have to do non-disclosure agreements unless it is someone we had been trusting for yours.

 

If this is the case, then it's more of an internal problem with the people/programmers you're working with. What does it have to do with buyers of the software and the rest of the community?

[Bryan]

I never said Tempest or Venture had been pirated. If they did, people are not talking about it here. There had been other bad experiences that happened in the past that has made us more cautious. Over a decade ago a few programmers were working on Lorelords for the Atari 8-bit for Video 61. Atari started the game, but never finished, Video61 has the source code. When the project was almost complete, one of the programmers decided to rename the game and sell this "Castle Crisis" game on their own. Now that is why now we have to do non-disclosure agreements unless it is someone we had been trusting for years.

Please explain this paragraph because it reads like bullshit.

 

Are you saying Castle Crisis contains someone else's code? Are you claiming it's a derivative of something like Castles and Kings, or is there actually a game called Lorelords?

 

All this post-release security won't protect you from a rogue developer anyway.

[peteym5]

Lord Lords is a 2600 Game originally made by Atari. They made a arcade version also. An 8-bit version had been started, but stopped when Tremial took over and fired all the programmers. Video61 got a hold of some incomplete stuff when Tremial sold Atari. I only stated what I had been told about the history of what happened. Castle Crises source code may had been optimized, debugged, and altered later. But Castle Crises is a Lore Lords clone on the Atari 8-bit.

Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5

[Bryan]

Lord Lords is a 2600 Game originally made by Atari. They made a arcade version also. An 8-bit version had been started, but stopped when Tremial took over and fired all the programmers. Video61 got a hold of some incomplete stuff when Tremial sold Atari. I only stated what I had been told about the history of when happened. Castle Crises code may had been optimized, debugged, and altered late. But Castle Crises is Lore Lords on the Atari 8-bit.

 

Just so you know...

 

1. You've been misled.

2. I am the author of Castle Crisis.

3. The original Atari game is called Warlords.

4. There was/is an unfinished Warlords conversion called Castles & Kings.

5. I wrote Castle Crisis on my own and I began working on it around 1999-2000. It was released in late 2003.

6. I do not personally know anyone involved with the Castles & Kings project (like Joe Cody or Jim Leiterman) and never saw any code related to it.

7. The Castles & Kings project had completely stalled before my game was finished. The released video of it had no sound or proper fireball movement. It showed a flying dragon, though.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/23108-castles-kings/?do=findComment&comment=357939

 

So, at one time there were two Warlords-type games in development. I didn't know about Castles & Kings until late in the development of Castle Crisis. My game is not an optimized or debugged version of anything else. It is a one-man conversion of the Warlords arcade game.

 

So, if I'm the reason you're so paranoid then you needn't be.

 

-Bry

[José Pereira]

You can always decide to have your games files public or only to sell.

If it is to get money you will never be rich and from your behaviour and reading all the others opinions in any topic you open I don't figure you will sell much copies, but even you don't get it or never will, this is and only because of you.

In other way and if what you want is to be credited for your work then whatever you do the game(s) will always have it 'untill the end of time'. But if you never, maybe after some time, put it to the public we may lost it forever.

Aren't allmost all the games from the past now in 21st century available to all? And you play them, right? And that's because of this that you can see those 2600 games codes to do your ports.

You see others, even old, carts to use in your work but you don't want others to see your. That's O.K. but think that in the same way from now 30years late someone wants to port them to some computer? Can they do that or they have to contact you, perhaps pay? And if you're already dead?

By now I didn't bother if you public or not the games and most of the others also, there's soo much and new ones to play and I'm proud and happy to be one of the guys that are doing them !

But I really hope that even if we have to wait more 20years we got the files preservered and to all. Not now but later...

Edited November 4, 2015 by José Pereira

[peteym5]

 

Just so you know...

 

1. You've been misled.

2. I am the author of Castle Crisis.

3. The original Atari game is called Warlords.

4. There was/is an unfinished 5200 prototype of Warlords called Castles & Kings.

5. I wrote Castle Crisis on my own and I began working on it around 1999-2000. It was released in late 2003.

6. I do not personally know anyone involved with the project to complete the Castles & Kings prototype (like Joe Cody or John Swiderski) and never saw any code related to it.

7. The Castles & Kings project had completely stalled before my game was finished. The released video of it had no sound or proper fireball movement. It showed a flying dragon, though.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/23108-castles-kings/?do=findComment&comment=357939

 

So, at one time there were two Warlords-type games in development. I didn't know about Castles & Kings until late in the development of Castle Crisis. My game is not an optimized or debugged version of anything else. It is a one-man conversion of the Warlords arcade game.

 

So, if I'm the reason you're so paranoid then you needn't be.

 

-Bry

 

I apologize if it seems as if I were accusing you of taking someone else source code. Maybe it was "Castles and Kings" that was stolen and I mistaken "Castle Crises" for that game. Castles and Kings was never completed and died 12 years ago. All the links are dead as well. The color scheme looks a little different from your game. I am going to email Video61 and send you a PM.

Edited November 4, 2015 by peteym5

[thorfdbg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Altirra written in C ?

In that case it could be compiled to Javascript using Emscripten ?

No, that doesn't work. Altirra is a Windows emulator, and hence requires the Windows services for sound output, graphics output and timing. It is not enough to compile something to a web-friendly programming language, e.g. Javascript. It is also necessary to use the web-resources for rendering the output of the emulator. That is, instead of rendering into some kind of Windows visual, it would need to render into a Javascript Canvas object, just to give you some example.

 

This is quite some work, and much more than just re-compiling the source.

 

However, it is certainly possible. Here is a completely javascript based x86 emulator, running a linux, completely in your browser:

 

http://bellard.org/jslinux/

 

Greetings,

Thomas

[Bryan]

 

I apologize if it seems as if I were accusing you of taking someone else source code. Maybe it was "Castles and Kings" that was stolen and I mistaken "Castle Crises" for that game. I am not sure if "Castle and Kings" was ever completed, but the color scheme looks a little different. If I was to do a similar game, I would had done other game options like having 3 or more fire balls flying around or other things to throw in a new challenge. I am going to email Video61 and send you a PM.

 

I did have some "piracy" issues myself when kjmann began selling his own Castle Crisis cartridges that he was labeling as "Warlords."

 

You can read about that here:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/185792-kjmanns-atari-pirates-cartridges/?p=2342956

 

Anyway, my understanding is that Castles & Kings started out as unfinished/proto 5200 game that Jim Leiterman began re-writing around 2002 and Joe Cody planned to publish it. I don't know who wrote the original code or whose hands it passed through before it reached Jim.

 

When I found out about its imminent release, I was only working on the Atari computer version of Castle Crisis which would not have been direct competition for C&K. Then, Mr. Cody began telling everyone that the project was on indefinite hold and Jim wasn't interested in letting anyone else work it, so I went ahead and began work on a 5200 version.

 

I'm a huge Warlords fan and I still think it would be cool to see Castles & Kings finished, just like I think Medieval Mayhem is an awesome game.

 

P.S. Castle Crisis allows 4 fireballs just like the arcade:

[gozar]

I never said Tempest or Venture had been pirated. If they did, people are not talking about it here. There had been other bad experiences that happened in the past that has made us more cautious. Over a decade ago a few programmers were working on Lorelords for the Atari 8-bit for Video 61. Atari started the game, but never finished, Video61 has the source code. When the project was almost complete, one of the programmers decided to rename the game and sell this "Castle Crisis" game on their own. Now that is why now we have to do non-disclosure agreements unless it is someone we had been trusting for years.

 

 

Since we know Castle Crisis is not the game you are talking about, what game was stolen and sold? Where was it sold?

 

And anecdotal stories from over 10 years ago really have not bearing on today. Please give us one concrete example where you have been ripped off and someone has pirated or sold code that you wrote,

 

From what I've seen, you're a pretty good programmer but have been told terrible lies about the Atari 8-bit community. We're trying to help.

[gozar]

 

I did have some "piracy" issues myself when kjmann began selling his own Castle Crisis cartridges that he was labeling as "Warlords."

I'm a huge Warlords fan and I still think it would be cool to see Castles & Kings finished, just like I think Medieval Mayhem is an awesome game.

 

P.S. Castle Crisis allows 4 fireballs just like the arcade:

 

 

I want to thank you for creating Castle Crisis. I bought it way back when, and it's our go to game for parties. Just great, great fun.

[Bryan]

I want to thank you for creating Castle Crisis. I bought it way back when, and it's our go to game for parties. Just great, great fun.

You're welcome. I used to collect coin-op arcade games and people would come over just to play Warlords. I started work on Castle Crisis because I wanted a portable version that played just like the arcade.

[peteym5]

We might be getting a little off subject. Looks like the ideal about modifying version of existing Windows emulators is a no go. Rybags provided a link for XLATARI.COM which I had been looking for.

 

It might had been "Castle and Kings" that had been stolen and it was KJMANN also been telling me that "Castle Crises" was a rip. I again apologize for reporting the false information I had been told about.

 

By the way I never said Venture or Tempest had been ripped. I had done "Delta Space Arena" all on my own and that game has a demo available. Things never got negative with that game. "Secretum Labyrinth" is getting close to being release and an updated demo-ware version of it will be soon released with it.

[Kr0tki]

xlatari.com uses the open-source Java port of Atari800 (just press F1 in the emulator). This website does not fulfil your purpose, peteym5 - the Java Atari800, in order to run the emulated software, has to download it from the internet first, so the software must be publicly available for downloading. When you run the game of, say, Abracadabra!, the emulator downloads the game from www.xlatari.com/games/Abracadabra.atr. It's just impossible to hide the game from public access with Atari800.

 

The website is part of a whole network of domains, each based around a Java or Flash port of an open-source emulator:

 

ssega.com

snesfun.com

gbafun.com

neogeofun.com

xtdos.com

8bbit.com

tgx16.com

retrosega.com

oldgamz.com

xlatari.com

jamsx.com

 

It is a shady enterprise - they profit from ads displayed alongside games they don't have rights to distribute, AND they violate the licences of the various emulators they use. In the case of Atari800, the GPL licence requires them to

a) clearly inform the users with their rights stemming from the licence,

b) provide the means to obtain the source code of the emulator.

They fail to comply with either point.

[peteym5]

I had decided to scrap the whole ideal of emulating my games through a web browser. Looks like it was a bad ideal in the first place just from some of the responses on this thread. I am still going to do YouTube videos, maybe demos with certain titles, screen shots and descriptions at the time of the game release. I have several game projects in the works and the games will be available on cartridge. I already posted about Laser Blast, Megaoids, Tempest Elite, and "Secretum Labyrinth: The Legend."

Edited November 5, 2015 by peteym5

[fujidude]

I've been reading along here in this thread just now (due to a link about Pro Wizard leaving the community) and contemplating a few things. A few thoughts come to mind for me:

• I'm fine with free enterprise and markets.
• I can also say that I appreciate the more communal approach I generally see here on AtariAge, where people put forth effort and share knowledge to help each other out and ask little or nothing in return.
• But what really leaves a sour taste in my mouth, is when a profit driven, evangelizers of free enterprise comes into a communal society, takes advantage of the generosity of others, but wishes to profit from his own efforts. Especially so when that profiting is targeted towards that very same community.
• I like to putz around with my (emulated) Ataris. I even find it fun to perhaps play an old game or two once in a while. But really the only thing that keeps me interested in Atari is the great community surrounding it. If I have to start paying money to participate in the experience, the experience itself changes in a way that makes me no longer value the experience.

Perhaps that's just me. But if I start seeing too much profiteering I'll be turned off and leave too. I wonder if Pro Wizard was the same way.

[Omega-TI]

Yes, there are all kinds in this world, some only see Atari Age and it's users as a 'market to be exploited', some of these users stay around making money off of Atari Age and it's users... and never subscribe. Some blast onto the scene, ask 100 questions then try to sell all their stuff and then disappear never to be heard from again. Fortunately those two groups are not the majority.

 

Then there are the Guru's & Gods, and programmers, the ones who are all knowing, the ones who take the time to help out the Newbies and lead them to the path of enlightenment for nothing more than a mere "thank you". I have the utmost respect and admiration for these kind souls.

 

There are others who only APPEAR to make a profit... some of these guys have devoted untold hours, days, weeks, months and yes, even years, coming up with, designing, building, and then troubleshooting their modern hardware items. They will NEVER get compensation for even a fraction of their time back. Getting PCB's made and shipped to them is not free, buying all the components and paying for the shipping is not free, taking the time to assemble these project boards, cartridges or whatever takes time and effort and then shipping them to others is not free either. The shipping expenses at every phase of these projects has to be accounted for. I know some people think they should be able to get a totally assembled modern cartridge for only $20.00, but hey, no one is going to sell at a loss, they have to at least break even. It's a hobby, not a charity. I don't know about others, but I'm sure as hell not going to begrudge some poor slob a few bucks for all his hard effort.

 

Some realize no matter how hard they try, they cannot please everyone, some eventually give up... because of some malcontents, the negative whiners always complaining about the prices. Listen, I'm a cheap bastard by nature, I'm always looking for the best deal, but seriously, don't bitch and whine about prices, you may be slitting your own throat when it comes to future goodies if you drive away the VERY FEW that can make this stuff. (For the record, I have bitched about Ebay prices on used stuff, but that's a different subject.)

 

This is not China, this stuff is not massed produced, there is much more overhead involved for a hobbyist than for a major overseas manufacturer. The purchasing differential between wholesale and retail alone also adds to the final equation.

 

My hobby computer is 32+ years old, it has cost me more than my newest state-of-the-art computer, it will continue to cost me money, all hobbies do.

[fujidude]

I want to be clear. I don't automatically look at anyone charging anything as poor taste here. There needs to be a lot of context considered. As an obvious example, if it costs you money to produce something, it certainly makes sense for you to ask to be reimbursed by those who get product. There are lots of examples where I'm fine with it. Now here is an example hypothetical that I am not so fine with: someone with relatively little investment of their own, utilizing software others provide to them for free, to provide them a platform to sell from. Someone like that doesn't mind taking advantage of the hard work of others for nothing, but doesn't contribute in kind. Like, if a commercial company had a proprietary service that ran Linux underneath, and then went on a Linux community forum and hoped that all the people their like Linus and others would be so thrilled to pay them for use of their product. Not illegal. Just incredibly poor taste.

 

As to prices, anyone is allowed to ask one, but, anyone else is allowed to share their opinion of it too. Don't want complaints? Don't charge anything. Can't have it both ways. It's okay if some complain. As long as you have enough that think its fair you'll be golden. Sellers shouldn't be discouraged because some complain about prices. Can't sell and have a thin skin. Of course some people, will complain even for free stuff. They're a whole nother kind of creature (right w1k?).

 

As to me, I'm not one to start a major fuss over someone's prices. I just won't buy. If things get to the point where one can't do all that much without paying prices they don't want to pay, they move on. If people like Phaeron, Draco30, FJC, etc. (and Albert!) weren't so kind as to share their efforts with me for free, I can say that I wouldn't probably be here. They make great Atari (or related) software! But I'm here for the sharing community, and would not opt to pay to participate. I'm sure some would, but I'm sure some wouldn't too.

Edited December 26, 2015 by fujidude

[peteym5]

As far as I am concerned, I dropped and scrapped the whole ideal because things got real negative and got several hostile responses. This is not the image myself and Video61 want to continue to have on public forums. KJMANN is no longer associated with us. Whenever there seems to be someone tries to press their case about us not releasing our games via digital downloads, its best to ignore them.

[Keatah]

That's too funny.

[danwinslow]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Altirra written in C ?

In that case it could be compiled to Javascript using Emscripten ?

 

It's in C++.

I suppose it's possible to do with Emscripten, but it seems like it would be a ton of work.

[Keatah]

Well that's good. Then it likely won't be done.