+KaeruYojimbo Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think the bigger problem is, that there is a market for that. And yes, bB is not the core problem. And as long as that core market of "gotta have 'em all" collectors is out there, the crash won't come. The homebrew market is so small that as long as most of those guys show up, a game will do well enough to be a success and encourage more games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 You know, it is attitude like yours that discourage game creation and participation. There are many things wrong with our respective communities, and most have to do with the way some people behave. However, the tools have nothing to do with it. I've seen crap games in Assembly Language, just as I've seen brilliant ones in BASIC. It is a poor warrior who blames his weapons for missing his mark -- and a poorer one who blames his situation on others. If there's a glut of crap games, there's one simple solution: help and encourage programmers to make better ones, and shame and ostracize those who promote or encourage bad behaviour. I think you misunderstood my post. bB is a great learning tool. The issue is that it makes it easier to churn out what the developers think is a finished, refined product that is cart-worthy. The market is thus getting flooded. bB, as great as it is, is simply enabling this behavior. Many crap games have been made in assembly too. Nobody is arguing that. But it takes a bigger effort to churn anything out in assembly so the homebrew market never got as flooded as it is now. As Thomas pointed out, there seems to be a market for anything that is put on cart. Look at any thread with a "limited release" and see how quickly the slots fill up. As expensive as these carts are and as cheap as us classic gamers usually claim to be, you'd think that the buyers would be more discerning. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KaeruYojimbo Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) As Thomas pointed out, there seems to be a market for anything that is put on cart. Look at any thread with a "limited release" and see how quickly the slots fill up. As expensive as these carts are and as cheap as us classic gamers usually claim to be, you'd think that the buyers would be more discerning. Exactly. I could make a game that does nothing but display the words "You're an @$$hole" on the screen (you being the buyer, not you the author of the post I'm quoting), have Albert or Hozer or whoever make me 25 copies, call it a Limited Edition (or better yet take it to an expo and call it a Show Exclusive) and sell out before noon. I've always believed there were two main reasons for the crash. First, people moved on. Either they stopped playing video games entirely or they bought a computer and played on that. The VCS is almost 40 years old. Anyone who hasn't moved on by now isn't going to, unless they move on to homebrew scenes for other systems. The second reason was market saturation. Not crap games necessarily, just more games than the market could handle. The average person could only fit so many 30-40 dollar games in their budget. Even if every single one of the VCS games released in 82-84 had been a great game a lot of those games would have gone unsold simply because there wasn't enough money out there to buy them all. So if the question is "Will crappy homebrews cause a homebrew crash?" my answer is no, not as long as there are 20 collectors out there willing to buy anything new that comes along and 5 who actually like the game. Edited November 14, 2015 by KaeruYojimbo 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfAmongWolves Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I don't think that bad homebrew games will have a negative effect on the homebrew market. Back in 1983 the Atari was a current game system, and people bought games primarily to play them, expecting state-of-the-art graphics and gameplay. Back then there was no AtariAge with game discussions, no Youtube with gameplay footage, and no downloadable roms that let you try the game for free. Often you would buy the game blindly, and if you bought three stinkers in a row at $30 to $40 a pop, it's easy to see that people could give up on the system. Today there are just as many 2600 collectors as there are players, and they tend to care less about the quality of a game than about owning it. Collectors are willing to spend lots of money on a crappy game simply because it's rare, or because it's a label variation, or because it's on a V-case pirate cart, etc., and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. A collector may get just as much enjoyment out of knowing that he is one of only 50 people in the world who own that particular crappy limited edition homebrew, as a player gets out of playing a truly great game. As for the players, I think the 2600 homebrew scene still offers lots of really great games. With the help of AtariAge and Youtube it's relatively easy to tell the crappy homebrews from the good ones, and I have never made a homebrew purchase that I've regretted. The glut of bad homebrews out there certainly won't stop me from purchasing the good ones. As for the good homebrew programmers, I can't imagine that they will be discouraged from programming further good games just because others are releasing bad games. It just makes their games shine even more. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 As for the good homebrew programmers, I can't imagine that they will be discouraged from programming further good games just because others are releasing bad games. It just makes their games shine even more. Well, it is pretty depressing to see that bad games often sell better than good ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I guess I didn't realize how exclusive Atari users are and how lowly Basic programmers are forcing people to buy their games. What has the world come to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfAmongWolves Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Well, it is pretty depressing to see that bad games often sell better than good ones. You shouldn't measure your success or appreciation by sales numbers alone. You and many other programmers here are kind enough to make your roms available free of charge, knowing that this may hurt your sales numbers. Everybody who has played your games knows what an exceptional programmer you are, and your reputation on AtariAge is proof of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The problem isn't bB, 7800basic, IntyBasic, or any other language that lowers the bar. If these languages didn't exist, the crap peddlers would just be selling graphical hacks of commercial games. The blame for crap carts lies entirely at the feet of people that create a market for crap carts in the first place. This notion that BASIC is responsible for the decline of Assembly programmers is silly. If anything the BASICs provide a gateway to Assembly coding. If the existence of BASIC is enough to divert a would-be assembly coder's path, he doesn't have what it takes to make a good polished game. Making 80% of a game is easy enough in any language, but the other 20% of finishing and polishing the game is long, terrible, difficult, and very very very very very boring. More boring than you can possibly imagine, if you're not one of the few who have the discipline to do it. You've played the game so many times for testing that you're sick of it, and still you show up and continue coding and testing. This is not a path someone who can be discouraged will ever complete in a satisfactory way. I don't think there's a crash coming, except possibly for collectors who feel they need to own everything. That's probably a good thing. The rest of the homebrew buying public will continue to buy from AA, since they know Al will filter out crap titles for them. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sega_SHARK Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This troll thread: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegamatrix Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The only crash we are experiencing is an overall drop in cart sales due to most people having Harmony Carts and other devices. That being said, I fully support try before buy. I am both a programmer and collector. I will say I'm much more selective these days when it comes to buying carts. I won't buy a cart because it's 19 of 20 unless it impresses me. The last cart I remember buying was Space Rocks, and the quality of that homebrew speaks for itself. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atarius Maximus Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 ...the other 20% of finishing and polishing the game is long, terrible, difficult, and very very very very very boring. More boring than you can possibly imagine, if you're not one of the few who have the discipline to do it. This. My issue has always been with the discipline of the programmer taking the time to polish a game, no matter the language that was used to create it. It is very painful to fully play test a game hundreds (possibly thousands!) of times to try and nail down every little detail to make it as perfect as possible. The last 20% just isn't for everybody. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 As for the good homebrew programmers, I can't imagine that they will be discouraged from programming further good games just because others are releasing bad games. It just makes their games shine even more. Well, I don't know if I'm a "good homebrew programmer" or not, but personally that's exactly what I did. I stopped programming. I was *greatly* discouraged by seeing people releasing stuff that took them a few weeks or (gasp!) months of effort and selling their copies. Seeing people buy these things climbing over each other to get limited edition copies of 25 or whatever... I simply couldn't see any reason for continuing to program quality assembler games for the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atarius Maximus Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 That being said, I fully support try before buy. I am both a programmer and collector. I will say I'm much more selective these days when it comes to buying carts. I won't buy a cart because it's 19 of 20 unless it impresses me. The last cart I remember buying was Space Rocks, and the quality of that homebrew speaks for itself. I'm also a programmer and collector, and am also very selective with what I buy. I try all of the games before I buy them, and buy the carts of the games I really like to support the author. I've probably bought over 50 homebrews over the years. If I don't like the game, I won't buy it. It's hard to relate to the people who simply buy a game because someone decided to put it on a cart. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Atarius Maximus Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Well, I don't know if I'm a "good homebrew programmer" or not, but personally that's exactly what I did. I stopped programming. I was *greatly* discouraged by seeing people releasing stuff that took them a few weeks or (gasp!) months of effort and selling their copies. Seeing people buy these things climbing over each other to get limited edition copies of 25 or whatever... I simply couldn't see any reason for continuing to program quality assembler games for the platform. It's discouraging to hear you say that, Andrew, as you are most certainly one of the most talented 2600 homebrew authors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 There have been only 5 or 6 VCS homebrews this past calendar year that I thoroughly enjoyed playing. And some are WIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegamatrix Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 The new Pac-Man game is an outstanding version. I don't care what program it was crafted in. What is impressive is the sheer detail put in that can only be done by love and a lot of elbow grease. It might be a terribly generic Tetris clone, but it's not to bad otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sega_SHARK Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Seeing people buy these things climbing over each other to get limited edition copies of 25 or whatever... I simply couldn't see any reason for continuing to program quality assembler games for the platform. That's on you though. One of the "lessons" of gaming on these systems is that you are essentially playing against yourself. The reason you should be programming assembly games is that you can create quality product, and you'll learn from it and get better. If you pay attention to what other people are doing, what other people are spending money on, you'll go insane. Some of these programmers that are making games in bB are going to get better. Some of them aren't. That's on them. Nobody is forcing people to purchase this stuff. I think I read somewhere on the retroVGS thread that Mike Kennedy was taking advantage of collectors. More power to him. It's not on me to police how other people spend their money. We have this amazing ability called self control. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+KaeruYojimbo Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'm also a programmer and collector, and am also very selective with what I buy. I try all of the games before I buy them, and buy the carts of the games I really like to support the author. I've probably bought over 50 homebrews over the years. If I don't like the game, I won't buy it. It's hard to relate to the people who simply buy a game because someone decided to put it on a cart. I think that sums it up perfectly. There are two audiences for homebrews: collectors and players. Collectors will buy anything with whatever swag you can charge them extra for, put it on a shelf and never touch it. If that's the audience you're after, put your half-finished game on a cart, take the money and run. There's a local guy here who makes bB games for expos, doesn't release the ROMs and doesn't have the games set up to play at his table. Last year I bought one because I thought the concept sounded interesting. When I got it home and played it, I still thought the concept was good, but the controls were glitchy and there was no sound. This year I didn't even pause at his table, but I'm sure because his games are Show Exclusives, he sold enough to make it worth his while. Players buy games they love playing. If you make a good game, players will buy it. It might take them a little while longer to get around to it because they aren't falling for the "buy it now or else because there will only ever be 30 copies of this game and only 5 of them will be the super duper special edition" hype, but they will buy it. Here's another theory I have. I think there are a fair number of younger people finding bB. People born after the heyday of the VCS, whose first console was an NES or even a Genesis. To them, Atari games are Combat, Pong and Pac-Man. They've never seen the later VCS games or the really amazing homebrews out there, and in their mind the crappy game they made is "pretty good for an Atari game." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This seems like the perfect thread to announce my 2016 lineup. Coming hard on the heels of my hundred selling platinum release of "Square Just Sits There" is my amazing new simulator called "Red Planet Approach" which takes advantage of graphics developed for SJST but improves upon them. Now you switch on your 2600 and are greeted by the familiar square but then over the course of three months the square actually gets larger unless you at any time touch the joystick or any console switches in which case you are doomed to hurtle through the vast emptiness of space forever. I am also looking forward to a third quarter release of "Fart Noise Synthesizer" which comes with a special finger shaped joystick that works when pulled. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sega_SHARK Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 This seems like the perfect thread to announce my 2016 lineup. Coming hard on the heels of my hundred selling platinum release of "Square Just Sits There" is my amazing new simulator called "Red Planet Approach" which takes advantage of graphics developed for SJST but improves upon them. Now you switch on your 2600 and are greeted by the familiar square but then over the course of three months the square actually gets larger unless you at any time touch the joystick or any console switches in which case you are doomed to hurtle through the vast emptiness of space forever. I am also looking forward to a third quarter release of "Fart Noise Synthesizer" which comes with a special finger shaped joystick that works when pulled. I'll take a copy of "Square Just Sits There" if it comes with a 3d printed figurine. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emehr Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I can't help but feel that the overwhelming use of bB is somehow discouraging or pushing away the developers who strictly use assembly. Well, it is pretty depressing to see that bad games often sell better than good ones. I stopped programming. I was *greatly* discouraged by seeing people releasing stuff that took them a few weeks or (gasp!) months of effort and selling their copies. I didn't want it to be true. I used to love following you guys' (and others) development threads to see how much more graphical detail or gameplay you could add to your games by shaving a few bits here and there or buying up some extra cycles of time. To me, it was that part of the process that helped persuade me to get a game into my collection: seeing that level of effort, passion, and excitement. We went from Combat to Pitfall to Solaris to Thrust to Boulder Dash and now it feels like we're back to Combat again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) http://atariage.com/forums/topic/238950-super-trash-truck-official-interest-thread/?p=3324448 Plenty more where this came from. Loon, I'm looking at you. Edited November 14, 2015 by Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 You can often recognize the quality of a homebrew by the comments (or not existing comments) of other homebrew authors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr0st Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Oh look, one of those threads that makes my hobby look like unenjoyable, serious business. Excuse me while I back out... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I'll take a copy of "Square Just Sits There" if it comes with a 3d printed figurine. Awesome idea. Thank you. I think I will do an entire line of actionless figures inspired by Atari games. What about a set of walls from combat? Edited November 14, 2015 by SIO2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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