What's the story with raiden?

[masschamber]

I mean most of the Jag's library is either computer ports, or strange original games, but yet Raiden is port of a contemporary Japanese arcade game,

It's one only what 2 arcade ports and the only Japanese game on the system. Does anyone have any insight as to how it ended up on the jag?

[Major Havoc 2049]

Atari was putting Raiden on everything back then, with ports on the Falcon, Lynx and Jaguar.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Major Havoc 2049

[masschamber]

Atari was putting Raiden on everything back then, with ports on the Falcon, Lynx and Jaguar.

so then there has to be some sort of story behind, why out of all games did Atari go after raiden and nothing else?

[doctorclu]

Have you listened to the Jaguar game by game podcast where they talk about Raiden? Some good material there. And in the podcast they touch on "why Raiden" as well. Why that game when there were other more technically challenging games the Jaguar could have taken on?

 

Honestly I am glad they did. Raiden is one of my more favorite games on the Jaguar. While the Jaguar could accomplish more impressive technical games those have not aged as well as games that were as close as possible to the Arcade counterparts. Other games I enjoy is the Arcade port of Defender in Defender 2000 and sometimes I get a good laugh out of the 2600 version of Pitfall on the Pitfall 3D game.

[Hyper_Eye]

Here's the scoop... Raiden is awesome.

[NeoGeoNinja]

I mean most of the Jag's library is either computer ports, or strange original games, but yet Raiden is port of a contemporary Japanese arcade game,

It's one only what 2 arcade ports and the only Japanese game on the system. Does anyone have any insight as to how it ended up on the jag?

 

Pretty sure it's actually a port of a port unfortunately.

 

Ported from the PC version by Imagitec.

[Austin]

 

Pretty sure it's actually a port of a port unfortunately.

 

Ported from the PC version by Imagitec.

 

Considering the Jag version is a lot better than the PC one and it was released earlier ('93 vs the PC's '94), it might actually be the other way around.

[Willard]

I still wish it had rapid fire.

 

It's a decent port through if you can get past hammering the fire button the entire duration you're playing.

[Lost Dragon]

Imagitec could tell you a lot more, but to myself it was another of those games that started out being developed for the then flagship system (in this case the Falcon), but as fate would of have it and the Falcon was far from everything Atari had hoped for, in terms of doing the buisness at retail, it was switched to the next great hope...the Jaguar and that version was the version finished.

I believe Dino Dudes had a similar history? Falcon version started 1st, but appeared after the Jaguar version?.

Atari badly needed launch titles for the Jaguar hence we saw projects planned for Panther (Crescent Galaxy and Cybermorph) switched pretty sharpish to the Jaguar, so it would'nt of been a huge surprise to hear Falcon Raiden was moved to Jaguar as well.

Game must of held some 'value' though as it appeared on PS1 as part as the Raiden Project.

Odd though as UK Press were moaning it was old hat, at time of review on MD/SNES...

[Atlantis]

Nice historical twist that at least this Japanese game alone made it to this euro styled console. Thanks for interesting info/thread.

I don't have it and have a slight interest in it, but the price for it today don't match that slight interest. Will stick to the exclusive Trevor it's a hard game as well, and IF you like it it's also lots of fun. I also own Aero fighters 2 for Neo AES, so might pass this game but in the end I know I will regret this decision.

I guess it's a Jag must have, beyond the big four (T2K, AvP, Doom, IS) next to Wolf3D, Rayman, and such, on a top 10 Jag list.

[Merendino]

Raiden is a for sure top ten Jaguar game in my opinion. As for why it appeared on the Jaguar? My guess is that it looked like what gamers were currently playing, just a little better. I imagine Atari thought it would help lure/bait people into giving the Jaguar a try.

[+save2600]

Raiden's easily the best 2-player simultaneous vertical shooter on the system!

 

But seriously, the game was already a little dated by the time it appeared on the Jaguar ('94). Was playing it since 1991 on the TG-16 and that was (is) an excellent version, aided by the rapid fire option built into the controllers. No two player option, but who really cares.

 

Don't get me wrong... Raiden on the Jaguar is a very *good* shooter (and among the better games on the system), but was looking for something a little more special or different out of the machine by *that* time. Today, I'm glad it was ported to the system and the music sounds great on the Jaguar version too!

[masschamber]

Raiden's easily the best 2-player simultaneous vertical shooter on the system!

 

But seriously, the game was already a little dated by the time it appeared on the Jaguar ('94). Was playing it since 1991 on the TG-16 and that was (is) an excellent version, aided by the rapid fire option built into the controllers. No two player option, but who really cares.

 

Don't get me wrong... Raiden on the Jaguar is a very *good* shooter (and among the better games on the system), but was looking for something a little more special or different out of the machine by *that* time. Today, I'm glad it was ported to the system and the music sounds great on the Jaguar version too!

It's also the best game called raiden, best port of a Japanese arcade, best game using a status bar to create the vertical orientation and a bunch of other things, that is an ironic thing that at the time something like cybermorph or trevor mcfur was considered more impressive but today raiden is looked upon more favorably than much of the jags library

[Schmudde]

It's also the best game called raiden, best port of a Japanese arcade, best game using a status bar to create the vertical orientation and a bunch of other things, that is an ironic thing that at the time something like cybermorph or trevor mcfur was considered more impressive but today raiden is looked upon more favorably than much of the jags library

 

I'm curious if you've listened to the Game By Game Jaguar Raiden episode? Doctorclu mentioned it earlier. That will provide some true insight into the how and why for Raiden.

 

Shinto's series is incredibly detail-driven and I'm impressed with the insights he brings in every episode. He really does go above and beyond.

 

/ü

Edited December 10, 2015 by Schmudde

[Trooper Galactus]

It makes sense, really. Raiden was a big success in the arcades and had ready-made name recognition in the market. Also, Raiden II was in arcades by 1994, so proliferation of the series was probably considered good for business. Agree with Schmudde, you REALLY should check out Shinto's podcast, and not just for Raiden.

[Lostdragon]

Stumbled across an advert for the unfinished Amiga version

 

[Seedy1812]

PC and Amiga versions of Raiden were converted from the Jaguar version which of course started out as the Falcon version.

[Lostdragon]

8 minutes ago, Seedy1812 said:

PC and Amiga versions of Raiden were converted from the Jaguar version which of course started out as the Falcon version.

And no Panther version, despite what Martin Hooley told Retrogamer Magazine? 

[Seedy1812]

At the end of the year it will be 30 years since I started at Imagitec so the memory is a bit hazy. For the Falcon we wrote using the Falcon but Atari being Atari provided they came with US power supplies so we have to run them with power convertor bricks. The fun was I went to Martin saying we need the convertors and he said dont bother - so 10 mins later one loud bang and a room full of smoke.  For a few months I worked on Dino Dudes , Freddy ( Nigel Conroy) worked on  Raiden and Trev did a Falcon dsp mod player.  We stopped for a week or so to get the Space Junk demo updated. Originally Space Junk was going to be released on CD but as nobody had them then it decided to be on floppies  The demo itself came on multiple discs so i would dread how many disc it would have been on.

Sometime later we were shown the Jaguar in a pc case running Minter demos which looked impressive and then Freddy and myself were moved onto the Jaguar. I had completed the majority of the game so another programmer whose name I forget took over the Falcon version. A  year or so later i was asked to remove the password protection which was easy so that it could be released as shareware.

 

When I started at Imagitec another programmer joined ( Martin Randall ) who was employed to create tools for us. There was already a map editor on the PC for Dino Dudes/Humans so Martin wrote a map / sprite editor for Raiden. It also created attack wave patterns. Graphics could be exported as PC (byte per pixel ), Atari ( planes ) and Jaguar .

As I had to give up the Falcon when I got a Jaguar I was given a TT with the 1024 mono screen. Throughout the development of the game I used Hisoft Devpac 3 which was better / more useable than the MadMac stuff Atari provided.

 

From what I read about https://atariage.com/forums/topic/80735-panther/?do=findComment&comment=4124156 that Martin doesn't remember Panther he might have done pitches for many games on a variety platforms which will not come to fruition. I am not surprised even Steve Noakes says he doesn't remember what the were graphics originally for. Atari might have mentioned to Martin about there future plans with the Panther and Jaguar but until Atari going to pay them no nothing will be started. When I joined Imagitec they had Gladiators on Genesis , Humans on Snes , Demonsgate on multiple platforms , Lynx Rampart, molders working on masks for Space Junk ,Falcon Raiden. This was in Nov 92 having completed PC and Amiga Humans. As you can see Martin had a lot of Irons in the fire at the same time.

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, Seedy1812 said:

At the end of the year it will be 30 years since I started at Imagitec so the memory is a bit hazy. For the Falcon we wrote using the Falcon but Atari being Atari provided they came with US power supplies so we have to run them with power convertor bricks. The fun was I went to Martin saying we need the convertors and he said dont bother - so 10 mins later one loud bang and a room full of smoke.  For a few months I worked on Dino Dudes , Freddy ( Nigel Conroy) worked on  Raiden and Trev did a Falcon dsp mod player.  We stopped for a week or so to get the Space Junk demo updated. Originally Space Junk was going to be released on CD but as nobody had them then it decided to be on floppies  The demo itself came on multiple discs so i would dread how many disc it would have been on.

Sometime later we were shown the Jaguar in a pc case running Minter demos which looked impressive and then Freddy and myself were moved onto the Jaguar. I had completed the majority of the game so another programmer whose name I forget took over the Falcon version. A  year or so later i was asked to remove the password protection which was easy so that it could be released as shareware.

 

When I started at Imagitec another programmer joined ( Martin Randall ) who was employed to create tools for us. There was already a map editor on the PC for Dino Dudes/Humans so Martin wrote a map / sprite editor for Raiden. It also created attack wave patterns. Graphics could be exported as PC (byte per pixel ), Atari ( planes ) and Jaguar .

As I had to give up the Falcon when I got a Jaguar I was given a TT with the 1024 mono screen. Throughout the development of the game I used Hisoft Devpac 3 which was better / more useable than the MadMac stuff Atari provided.

 

From what I read about https://atariage.com/forums/topic/80735-panther/?do=findComment&comment=4124156 that Martin doesn't remember Panther he might have done pitches for many games on a variety platforms which will not come to fruition. I am not surprised even Steve Noakes says he doesn't remember what the were graphics originally for. Atari might have mentioned to Martin about there future plans with the Panther and Jaguar but until Atari going to pay them no nothing will be started. When I joined Imagitec they had Gladiators on Genesis , Humans on Snes , Demonsgate on multiple platforms , Lynx Rampart, molders working on masks for Space Junk ,Falcon Raiden. This was in Nov 92 having completed PC and Amiga Humans. As you can see Martin had a lot of Irons in the fire at the same time.

Extremely grateful for such a lengthy reply, some of this can be used to update the GTW entry for Space Junk. 

 

 

One of your fellow co-workers put it a bit more bluntly about Martin ?

 

 

"I can see why this is frustrating and I wouldn’t want to badmouth Martin as he gave me a job which got me started in the industry, but he was certainly a character or even a ‘cowboy’ in the best possible sense.  He’s either bullshitting still to this day or just plain can’t remember anything"

 

 

But Martin stating as FACT Humans, Daemonsgate and Raiden were ALL in actual development on the Panther in the article used by Retrogamer Magazine, has made getting across what actually was and wasnt in development far more frustrating than it could of been

 

 

It's clear Martin was indeed a dab hand with the press, a cowboy to some, showman to others, but so far I think your the 14th? Person from Imagitec that has no recollection of any Panther development, so it wouldn't be unkind to suggest Martin was juggling so many titles on do many projects, he's getting his Atari platforms mixed up. 

 

 

Daemonsgate itself being annouced as a Trilogy, planned for what? 

 

PC, ST, AMIGA, LYNX and Game Gear? 

 

[tripled79]

On 12/9/2015 at 3:12 AM, doctorclu said:

Have you listened to the Jaguar game by game podcast where they talk about Raiden? Some good material there. And in the podcast they touch on "why Raiden" as well. Why that game when there were other more technically challenging games the Jaguar could have taken on?

 

Honestly I am glad they did. Raiden is one of my more favorite games on the Jaguar. While the Jaguar could accomplish more impressive technical games those have not aged as well as games that were as close as possible to the Arcade counterparts. Other games I enjoy is the Arcade port of Defender in Defender 2000 and sometimes I get a good laugh out of the 2600 version of Pitfall on the Pitfall 3D game.

Pitfall 3D? That was on Playstation. Jaguar got the Mayan adventure...

[doctorclu]

14 hours ago, tripled79 said:

Pitfall 3D? That was on Playstation. Jaguar got the Mayan adventure...

 

Haha... and as Stan Lee would say, you win the no-prize for being the first person to point that out in six years!

 

Yep, I still get a good laugh out of the 2600 version of Pitfall that is hidden in the Pitfall: The Mayan Adventure game.

[tripled79]

2600 Pitfall is a good game. I don't laugh at it...

[Seedy1812]

As I said I started the end of 1992 ( Nov ) and I never heard anything about the Panther. Earlier in that year after The Humans had been completed most of that team left Imagitec because the company had trouble paying them. If you look at the Amiga passwords : -

 

PAYDAY NO MONEY TIRED TIME IS RUNNING OUT NOW ITS DONE IM OUT OF HERE HERES TO A BETTER LIFE BYE BYE BYE

 

Martin was not the easiest person to work for. You might be in a pub and he might throw an ashtray at you for no reason at all . We had a Raiden machine in the my office which he loved to play. Yet every time he lost a life he would PUNCH the crt. I have heard some of the stuff which happened before I started and most people would not believe what they used to get up to.

 

[Lostdragon]

6 hours ago, Seedy1812 said:

As I said I started the end of 1992 ( Nov ) and I never heard anything about the Panther. Earlier in that year after The Humans had been completed most of that team left Imagitec because the company had trouble paying them. If you look at the Amiga passwords : -

 

PAYDAY NO MONEY TIRED TIME IS RUNNING OUT NOW ITS DONE IM OUT OF HERE HERES TO A BETTER LIFE BYE BYE BYE

 

Martin was not the easiest person to work for. You might be in a pub and he might throw an ashtray at you for no reason at all . We had a Raiden machine in the my office which he loved to play. Yet every time he lost a life he would PUNCH the crt. I have heard some of the stuff which happened before I started and most people would not believe what they used to get up to.

 

Thank you Andrew. 

 

The thing is, having spoken with as many Artists, Coders, Musicians etc who were at Imagitec Design in the window when Panther development would of been taking place, who had some involvement on the very titles Martin named.. 

 

The Humans

Daemonsgate 

Raiden

 

For not one of them (and I do believe your source number 15) for not one of you to of even known someone working on something for the Panther or it even being mentioned, spoke volumes to me. 

 

 

I hadn't heard of any issues with Martin's personality, bar the showman/bullshitter aspects, but the financial issues, staff not being paid etc) have cropped up time and time again, even when Imagitec were working on likes of Pitfighter and Rampart etc for the 7800,the Atari Corp reports stated the company was overstretched and couldn't afford to pay staff. 

 

From what others within Imagitec have said, Martin would use the press, via fake screenshots and announcements of Games in development for numerous platforms at once, to bluff his way into getting investors money. 

 

 

Imagitec sounded very much like Handmade Software in terms of staff leaving and staff conflicts, largely due to unpaid wages and bonuses... 

 

 

Sad times ?