Marble Madness 2: Marble Man

[Keatah]

Absuhloootly rite. It *is* possible for a game to fall into obscurity and just fade away, taking any provenance and self-assigned fame with it. I mean like I got thousands of games to play, even unopened stuff from the big-box PC era for example. MM2 isn't that big a deal.

[prOk]

Of course it's not a big deal, at the end of the day it's just a video game.  The fun is in the mystique of learning about rare games.  Most people just want to have a copy of it for no particularly good reason other than to have it, but others actually genuinely enjoy the history of the era.

[Rik1138]

22 hours ago, negative1 said:

I only remember one person that was predicting it was coming out, and they've been banned.

Supergun was the one saying it was going to come out in November, and he was going to remind the person that owns the game in Florida that he said he'd release the ROMs by the end of the year at Free Play Florida in Nov (if it happens).

Not that I'm actually expecting ROMs to be released even if Free Play does happen, but that's where all the mayhem came from in this thread... 

 

As far as I can tell, Supergun hasn't been banned...

[negative1]

9 hours ago, Rik1138 said:

Supergun was the one saying it was going to come out in November, and he was going to remind the person that owns the game in Florida that he said he'd release the ROMs by the end of the year at Free Play Florida in Nov (if it happens).

Not that I'm actually expecting ROMs to be released even if Free Play does happen, but that's where all the mayhem came from in this thread... 

 

As far as I can tell, Supergun hasn't been banned...

Yes, of course, that's what originally started it.

 

But there was only one person constantly going on and on every single week it seemed.

 

That person has been banned.

 

later

-1

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, negative1 said:

Yes, of course, that's what originally started it.

 

But there was only one person constantly going on and on every single week it seemed.

 

That person has been banned.

 

later

-1

 

To this, I'll add the following: the person who was banned not only would not shut up about it, but also started a thread requesting the ROMs.  When he was counseled by others (myself included) regarding his behavior and how best to fit in, he decided to spout off at everyone and tried to hide behind the, "I'm 14 years old" excuse, which really doesn't work when we have people in here in that age bracket who don't behave as he did.  Eventually, a moderator stepped in and told him to knock it off, to which he agreed.  He then signed up a sockpuppet account in order to appear to be replying to his original account as a third party, which was when the banhammer came down.

 

So, yeah.  There's no reason why the game can't be discussed.  People just aren't permitted to be asshats while doing so.

Edited October 29, 2020 by x=usr(1536)

[roadrunner]

Some discussion about MM2 in the comments here


https://lostmediaarchive.fandom.com/wiki/Marble_Man:_Marble_Madness_2_(Unreleased_1991_Arcade_Game)

[Rik1138]

22 hours ago, negative1 said:

Yes, of course, that's what originally started it.

 

But there was only one person constantly going on and on every single week it seemed.

 

That person has been banned.

Oh, got it...  I didn't even realize he had been banned...  That explain the quietness around here. 

 

[Keatah]

How ignominious. Marble Madness 2 was shelved and replaced by a nondescript fighting game. The genre which caused myself (and friends) to permanently lose interest in going to the arcade. And the arcade industry to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars through many town's efforts to curtail anti-social behavior. Not that any of it matters for it's piss in the ocean.

 

Being fearful of not making profit led the industry pandering to a short-sighted culture. Games that were innovative in art, execution, mechanics, or just premise where what made the industry what it was to date. Abandoning another game (MM2) that had those qualities in favor of something generic was just, well, shortsighted. It signaled a shift away from what us conservative gamers were enthusiastic over.

 

I personally enjoyed the premise of MM. But like many arcade games it became too difficult too rapidly and that took the fun out of it. 6 levels? Too short. So the 17 levels in MM2 would've been highly welcome at the time.

[negative1]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

How ignominious. Marble Madness 2 was shelved and replaced by a nondescript fighting game. The genre which caused myself (and friends) to permanently lose interest in going to the arcade. And the arcade industry to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars through many town's efforts to curtail anti-social behavior. Not that any of it matters for it's piss in the ocean.

 

Being fearful of not making profit led the industry pandering to a short-sighted culture. Games that were innovative in art, execution, mechanics, or just premise where what made the industry what it was to date. Abandoning another game (MM2) that had those qualities in favor of something generic was just, well, shortsighted. It signaled a shift away from what us conservative gamers were enthusiastic over.

 

I personally enjoyed the premise of MM. But like many arcade games it became too difficult too rapidly and that took the fun out of it. 6 levels? Too short. So the 17 levels in MM2 would've been highly welcome at the time.

Just because you and your friends stopped playing didn't mean much.

 

Many more people started playing fighting games, it took me a year, but i was one of those people.

And those games dominated the 90's, along with shooting, and racing games.

 

The companies were making fortunes that were unheard of then.

 

Just because retrogramers stopped, the arcade industry took a huge leap forward.

 

This basically cemented Sega to me forever over capcom, because i liked the 3d games much better than the

hand drawn 2d sprites.

 

later

-1

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, negative1 said:

Just because you and your friends stopped playing didn't mean much.

Maybe. Maybe not. But collectively we enriched other genres to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. A fart in a windstorm perhaps. But one with a smell savored by millions.

 

Quote

The companies were making fortunes that were unheard of then.

And are unknown today. There are only two (arguably three) franchises of fighters worth anything today. Fatal Fury and Street Fighter. And optionally Primal Rage. Just as it should be.

 

Quote

Just because retrogramers stopped, the arcade industry took a huge leap forward.

And their last. Oh maybe VR had some fits and starts and, today, big-screen phone games seem to be on the rise. But that's so passe'.

 

Retrogamers of good taste turned away from the fighting category to others - while other diverse games were still being made. When that stopped we moved into the PC arena and grew that a hundred-billion times BIGGER than any arcade scene.

 

Quote

This basically cemented Sega to me forever over capcom, because i liked the 3d games much better than the

hand drawn 2d sprites.

Nothing wrong in that. Choices.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Keatah

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, negative1 said:

Just because retrogramers stopped, the arcade industry took a huge leap forward.

 

Going to have to disagree on this one.  Here's why:

• Arcade technology continued to progress from the '70s to the '80s through the '90s and beyond.  A manufacturer who didn't constantly have their next hardware design in the pipeline was risking falling behind the competition.  This is just how the industry has - by nature - always been.
• While the hardware in arcade games improved significantly, the breadth of the kinds of titles being released decreased considerably.  Most games reaching the arcades at this time could be boiled down into three broad genres: driving, fighting, and shooting (meaning light gun).
• As the '90s moved on, manufacturers became increasingly risk-averse.  Part of this came down to the consolidation of genres, but part of it also came down to audience demands.  Manufacturers didn't want to take risks on a game that could bomb, and audiences increasingly wanted driving, fighting, and shooting games.
• 1991-1993 was when consoles really started to come into their own, and the Playstation's 1995 launch cemented that.  Arcades were becoming passé, and gaming at home was in.  The first wave of this carried on through the Dreamcast's short lifespan, by the end of which the momentum was irreversible.

And, one final thing to consider:

• Those of us who largely quit playing arcade games in the early '90s may have done so for some, all, or none of the reasons above - but a good chunk of us were also getting older, taking on new responsibilities, and going through significant life changes.  That cuts into the amount of time that can be spent gaming somewhere other than at home, so we had ceased to be the manufacturers' target audience - which comes full-circle to playing to their audience.

Now you'll have to excuse me while I shake my fist and rant at a cloud

[mr_me]

 

On 10/27/2020 at 9:52 PM, prOk said:

In an effort to clear up any misinformation on the release of roms for this game I thought i'd chime in.   As of right now, there are no plans to release the roms but there's a very good chance it will happen at some point in the future.  More people will get a chance to play this game, maybe not in the form some want but it will live on, just don't count on open roms any time soon.

What are the circumstances  that rom files for a prototype goes from being not shared to shared?  I imagine there would be a consensus among all those in posession of a prototype.

[ubersaurus]

My impression is that a copy of the game is going to pop up at an arcade like galloping ghost vs having the rom online

[Rik1138]

On 11/2/2020 at 5:06 AM, mr_me said:

 

What are the circumstances  that rom files for a prototype goes from being not shared to shared?  I imagine there would be a consensus among all those in posession of a prototype.

Likely either a current owner of one of the prototypes having a change of heart and releasing them, or a prototype changing hands to a new owner that doesn't care.

(Or a previously unknown prototype shows up)

I don't think there is any kind of 'vote' between proto owners, unless they all happen to be friends or that was a condition of ownership between them all...

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 hours ago, Rik1138 said:

I don't think there is any kind of 'vote' between proto owners, unless they all happen to be friends

 

It's a small world.  Very small in some cases.

[Rik1138]

I guess I'd just be curious to know WHY that would be the case then?

If I got a Marble Man machine, and wanted to release the ROMs, what would be the reasoning for checking with other owners first?  Even if they are my friends...  It's none of their business what I do with my copy of the game.  And it isn't going to hurt the value of a game that there's only 3 or 4 of out there either (and those are owned by people that, by their own admission in this case, will NEVER sell them, so what do they care even if it did?).

 

I understand there were special circumstances surrounding MM years ago, but just in general for a prototype or rare game...

[+x=usr(1536)]

9 hours ago, Rik1138 said:

I guess I'd just be curious to know WHY that would be the case then?

 

Not to give a non-answer, but: it's the way that it is because that's what the owners have decided.  With as few machines in existence as there are, it's not difficult to control an initial release of the ROMs.

 

9 hours ago, Rik1138 said:

If I got a Marble Man machine, and wanted to release the ROMs, what would be the reasoning for checking with other owners first?  Even if they are my friends...  It's none of their business what I do with my copy of the game.  And it isn't going to hurt the value of a game that there's only 3 or 4 of out there either (and those are owned by people that, by their own admission in this case, will NEVER sell them, so what do they care even if it did?).

 

All of which, as stated, makes sense.  I even agree with most of the points that you're raising, though it's not how things are going at this point in time.  Again, not to give a non-answer, but it is the only one that really applies IMHO.

 

9 hours ago, Rik1138 said:

I understand there were special circumstances surrounding MM years ago, but just in general for a prototype or rare game...

 

See also the Japanese arcade collecting scene.  There are a lot of compacts between collectors to not reveal what they have publicly, or to make ROM images of certain games available.  It's just how things sometimes work in these specific cases.

 

The reality is that there will never be an answer for these questions.  If someone doesn't want their property released to the public, that's their right.  It might suck from the standpoint of satisfying curiosity about gameplay, but nobody has an entitlement to ROM images.  This is really what it all boils down to.

[BobTheOompaLoompa]

Haha you know as much as that one user was going around pretty much implying that the ROM would be released in November I actually started to believe it myself even though I knew it most likely wouldn't happen... Regardless, I truly hope MM2 will be available for all people to enjoy someday. I absolutely loved the original MM for NES and ever since I found out MM2 existed out of chance I'd love the opportunity to play it. What excited me most was the games ability to allow three people at once to play together. I can see myself and some of my close friends having a blast with this considering how much fun we had on the first. 

 

Oh well such is life I suppose. With no update from Supergun I guess we will just have to sit back and remain hopeful that we may see the ROM at some point in time..

[Swami]

Hardcore hardcore collectors have been known to ostracize people from the “inner circle” for going rogue with a ROM release, so, it is a concern amongst members of that community. 

[Rik1138]

I know it's a touchy subject, but I have, honestly, been curious as to why it's an issue at all...  Is it just the excitement of having something you know isn't even out there in the 'ROM scene'?

I know people that have prototype arcade games like this and they claim they will NEVER sell them, under any circumstances no matter how much money is offered.  So the (false) theory that releasing the ROMs will hurt the value of the original prototype doesn't even apply to them.  But they still don't want to.

And sure, I get that they have no obligation to release them, but that isn't a REASON...  If they chose the prerogative of not releasing it, I'm just generally curious as to the reason why (again, I understand that it isn't even any of my business, but just asking an honest question as I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually answer it)...

 

If anyone here has a prototype of any kind that isn't 'released', and you are never going to sell it (at least, that's your intent), why wouldn't you release it? (And, if you make the assumption that releasing it wouldn't hurt the value of the original prototype, same question)  (Of course, this is assuming the conditions of you getting it from the previous owner don't stipulate that, as is the case with at least one owner of MM2, the only person to ever give me a straight, honest answer to the question of releasing the ROMs...)  Again, no judgement, not trying to start an argument or convince someone to release something, just genuinely curious...  Even if the reason is just 'I like having something you don't', that's perfectly fine. I'm also not familiar with the 'inner circles', so if it's an arcade Illuminati type of thing, then I guess it just is what it is. 

 

I've only been in that situation once having found an unreleased Dreamcast game on a Katana system I bought (Dreamcast development system).  I chose to share it with the community as it wasn't doing me any good just sitting on a hard drive...  Turns out it wasn't really playable anyway, but I didn't know that at the time as I needed help converting it to a format that could be emulated or burned to a disc (the Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator).  But at least there's proof the game was in development, and anyone that wants to look at it, can...  But I didn't buy the Katana knowing there was anything on it, so it's not quite the same as if I specifically bought a MM2 machine or something knowing it was rare.

[negative1]

if the akka arrh cabinets were worth $3000 before, they're probably worth just as much now.

even with the roms released on MAME, and even with the commercial release of Arcade 1up machine

that has it.

 

maybe it's worth more if more people find out about it.

 

so in that case, an unreleased game could go up in value.

 

if people want the original cabinet, it will still be original. I don't think people are going

to go out an make their own versions of 'akka arrh' cabinet.

 

so i don't know what the mentality of keeping it to yourself is either.

 

later

-1

[Keatah]

If something is not out there, an un-released rom for example.. A collector, hoarder, or keeper-of-the-rom may not want to give it up. Because giving it up shatters the illusion of power in their personal microcosm.

 

Doesn't matter if the rom is stolen, sold, traded, given away, put in the public domain, or licensed out. Once it's out there there can be no more power trips that stem from "I have something no one else has."

 

 

[mr_me]

The thing is even if the copyright owner declares it public domain, it won't get shared because the copyright owner likely doesn't have a copy to share it.

 

The rarity of an arcade machine whose rom hasn't been leaked doesn't change once it's leaked but its desirability does.  While the Akka Arrh story certainly brought attention to an otherwise obscure game, those that are serious collectors likely already knew about it.  It's not only a touchy subject with collectors; there was a thread in this very sub-forum that was locked because this subject was discussed.  All the reasons to not leak the rom mentioned is valid and I'll add that a colector might not want to release the rom because the rom image doesn't belong to them anyway. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by mr_me

[negative1]

28 minutes ago, mr_me said:

The thing is even if the copyright owner declares it public domain, it won't get shared because the copyright owner likely doesn't have a copy to share it.

 

The rarity of an arcade machine whose rom hasn't been leaked doesn't change once it's leaked but its desirability does.  While the Akka Arrh story certainly brought attention to an otherwise obscure game, those that are serious collectors likely already knew about it.  It's not only a touchy subject with collectors; there was a thread in this very sub-forum that was locked because this subject was discussed.  All the reasons to not leak the rom mentioned is valid and I'll add that a colector might not want to release the rom because the rom image doesn't belong to them anyway. 

i highly doubt atari would sue anyone with the akka arrh cabinet, or ROM.

 

not worth it.

 

later

-1

[mr_me]

The guy in posession of the cabinet wouldn't get sued because they wouldn't be the one distributing copies of the rom image, but I could see someone not wanting to be a part of it.