Keatah Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Win Plus is pretty much dead in the water so its a choice of 3, Atari++, A800 and Altirra, Atari++ is nice but I can't stand the GUI, so clunky. A800 is very good indeed, maintained well but again its a clunky interface so for me its Altirra all the way. . . Not sure what emulator "A800" you're referring to, can post a like to the website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1NG Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Altirra is way beyond others. I have just tried to build Jim Slide for the ST. That is a scale down. It is doable of course. But if you once had Altirra, then it is kind of unfair :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 Not sure what emulator "A800" you're referring to, can post a like to the website? http://atari800.sourceforge.net/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 20, 2016 Share Posted April 20, 2016 (edited) The in-emulator title/name is "Atari 800 Emulator, Version 3.1.0".. Ahh yes of course. I like its NTSC simulation and keep it around for that exact reason, but the menu sucks. Always requires thought to navigate it as opposed to a plain-jane windows drop down style. None of it is intuitive and just one more thing to have to remember. Just as bad Atari++. We saw a lot of this crap in the dot-com era and immediately prior to it. A lot of developers seemed fixated on making their own user interfaces for everything. Perhaps in attempt to simplify something that's already simple. From digitizers like "Snappy" to Kai's PowerTools and many other photoshop plugins and more! I'm glad that foolishness is passe'. About the only thing that makes sense in having its GUI mimic the real-life physical object is mp3 and dvd playback software. Anything else is WTF?? Edited April 21, 2016 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Ahh yes of course. I like its NTSC simulation and keep it around for that exact reason, but the menu sucks. Always requires thought to navigate it as opposed to a plain-jane windows drop down style. None of it is intuitive and just one more thing to have to remember. Just as bad Atari++. We saw a lot of this crap in the dot-com era and immediately prior to it. A lot of developers seemed fixated on making their own user interfaces for everything. Perhaps in attempt to simplify something that's already simple. From digitizers like "Snappy" to Kai's PowerTools and many other photoshop plugins and more! I'm glad that foolishness is passe'. You might find this difficult to believe, but some people actually like to have simple key sequences to do everything instead of using drop-down menus (yes, I'm aware that there are key sequences tied to some of the options). Besides, the Atari800 emulator is simply running in a console, compiled from the same source used in Linux and DOS. It doesn't make use of the Windows API at all. I'm sure you've written software you consider to have a much better interface, but I really don't think it's appropriate to badmouth and put down the developer of Atari800. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 I'm sure the dev is a fine chap. Can't say the same thing for the non-standard UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 There is no "standard". You just happen to like Windows drop-down menus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 True enough. But they're a standard in that the dialog for one program looks very much like that for another - even in unrelated things like Altirra, Photoshop, Firefox, Outlook.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Well, CUA *is* a de-facto standard. That's why you see it on practically every OS that Microsoft or IBM's had a hand in, as well as on most *x environments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Let's just say I strongly prefer a UI that works and presents all functions to the user. The OS has a toolkit for making these simple and wonderful pulldown menus. And it isn't hard to use them. I want my developers to use them and not waste time dreaming up funky things. The time spent on concocting a new interface can be better spent on program functionality. We should get back on topic and this is my final post on this matter for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted April 21, 2016 Author Share Posted April 21, 2016 Atari800 is a console mode application in Windows, but that doesn't preclude having a GUI. There are not many differences between a console mode application and a windowed mode application in Windows, and the difference was narrowed in Vista where it became possible to keep a console attached to a windowed application. Atari800 largely doesn't use the Windows API to generate its display, but that's mostly because it is abstracted by the SDL library that is making Win32 calls. The UI-in-display design is simpler to implement and makes it easier for Atari800 to share a basic UI between platforms, which makes porting much easier. The UI code in Altirra is a substantial portion of the source code and is also the hardest type of component to port. In other words... Atari800 has different history and different requirements, and so it does things differently. Can we leave it at that? I'm sure everyone can spare another few megabytes to keep all the emulators around. In Altirra, you can rebind any of the menu options to keyboard shortcuts via the Tools menu. This can help those who would rather use keyboard shortcuts. However, one issue is that a number of Alt+keys are already used by the emulator for the menu due to underscore prefixing shortcuts, and Ctrl+ and Shift+ are already used by keyboard and joystick emulation. Some of the default shortcuts use Alt+Shift to get around this, but it's clumsier and can still trip the keyboard emulation. Atari800WinPLus largely avoids this by having the File menu be the only menu with a shortcut (Alt+F), freeing up all the other Alt+ keys for command shortcuts, which I'm thinking might be a good idea to adopt. The other idea was to use Right Alt, but that is already used as one of the keys to release mouse capture and is also overloaded on some international keyboards as AltGr. MESS (now MAME) uses Scroll Lock to overload the whole keyboard, but that always seemed hard to use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 True enough. But they're a standard in that the dialog for one program looks very much like that for another - even in unrelated things like Altirra, Photoshop, Firefox, Outlook.. But those are all Windows programs, using the Windows API, so they're not like Atari800 at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Atari800 is coded akin to the DOS era, it hasn't tried to be a Windows based item so its a little unfair to compete it against one in my opinion. My original comments re Atari++ andAtari800 was that the interface was clunky which I stand by BUT as emulators they are still excellent and that is how they should be judged, I'm not a fan of how you get them to work but the end product is what counts. I'd even like to see WinPlus make a come back, a little competition never hurts and everyone has their own thoughts on what is right for them so the more the merrier I say. Thor and the Atari800 team deserve credit for their hard work just as much much as Avery does for his hard work, its a happy emulation world. lets keep it that way.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 The in-emulator title/name is "Atari 800 Emulator, Version 3.1.0".. Ahh yes of course. I like its NTSC simulation and keep it around for that exact reason, but the menu sucks. Always requires thought to navigate it as opposed to a plain-jane windows drop down style. None of it is intuitive and just one more thing to have to remember. Just as bad Atari++. We saw a lot of this crap in the dot-com era and immediately prior to it. A lot of developers seemed fixated on making their own user interfaces for everything. Perhaps in attempt to simplify something that's already simple. From digitizers like "Snappy" to Kai's PowerTools and many other photoshop plugins and more! I'm glad that foolishness is passe'. I actually like the interface of Atari800. It keeps me in the 8-bit mode, I hit F1 and there are my menus and options that I can configure, all from my keyboard. Even though Altirra is a superior emulator, and I love how much work Phareon puts into it, I'm on Linux or OS X most of the time so Atari800 is my usual go to for emulator. It's an emulator, it should work like the machine it's emulating. :-) Speaking of UI, I like how we've gone full circle. Computers started with full screen applications that presented their own interface to the user, to a windowed interface with menus, back to full screen applications with their own interfaces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 Altirra is the best and more faithful A8 emulator. The only one to pass Acid800 test. But Atari800 is very important; thanks to its code written with portability in mind, we have A8 emulators for a lot of platforms. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted April 21, 2016 Share Posted April 21, 2016 We should get back on topic and this is my final post on this matter for now. I had to chuckle a little bit when I saw that "for now" at the end there. It's almost like the post was saying "let's drop this while I have the last word, but if you say anymore I might too." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) The in-emulator title/name is "Atari 800 Emulator, Version 3.1.0".. Ahh yes of course. I like its NTSC simulation and keep it around for that exact reason, but the menu sucks. Always requires thought to navigate it as opposed to a plain-jane windows drop down style. None of it is intuitive and just one more thing to have to remember. Just as bad Atari++. We saw a lot of this crap in the dot-com era and immediately prior to it. A lot of developers seemed fixated on making their own user interfaces for everything. Perhaps in attempt to simplify something that's already simple. From digitizers like "Snappy" to Kai's PowerTools and many other photoshop plugins and more! I'm glad that foolishness is passe'. About the only thing that makes sense in having its GUI mimic the real-life physical object is mp3 and dvd playback software. Anything else is WTF?? And if you are trying to write code that is cross-platform, and intended to run on Windows, Mac, Linux (x86 and ARM), etc... You sort of have to write your own GUI. I'm glad it is written that way, since I ported it to my old Nokia n900 easily. Altirra is installed on my windows machine of course. Edited April 22, 2016 by Shawn Jefferson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) <Duplicate post> Edited April 22, 2016 by Shawn Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) Hi Phaeron, Running test30, still having weird issues with MyIDE-][ v.s. real hardware. This is what I found, again the status bits. When a running card is removed, bits are fine, so 111x.xxxx -> 000x.xxxx But when I insert a card altirra directly goes to 111x.xxxx The real hardware does 100x.xxxx (card inserted, waiting for power-up/power-cycle). Then, to (re-)power-up, you need to first write 0 (reset), then 2 (power on), then 3(init IDE, show primary IDE-registers). Writing 3 (without the 0/2) or 2 (without the 0) will do nothing. Registers will show $FF status stays at 100x.xxxx Writing 3 after 0 (without 2) will only power-up the card, but not init IDE, registers stay at $FF, status 101x.xxxx P.S. After power-up and init-IDE are complete, writing 2 will select the secondary IDE-registers. Don't know if you have implemented this, MyBIOS does not use these registers, perhaps others do. Sorry for the inconvenience.... Grtz, Sijmen. Edited April 22, 2016 by mr-atari 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) Atari800 is coded akin to the DOS era, it hasn't tried to be a Windows based item so its a little unfair to compete it against one in my opinion. My original comments re Atari++ andAtari800 was that the interface was clunky which I stand by BUT as emulators they are still excellent and that is how they should be judged, I'm not a fan of how you get them to work but the end product is what counts. I'd even like to see WinPlus make a come back, a little competition never hurts and everyone has their own thoughts on what is right for them so the more the merrier I say. Thor and the Atari800 team deserve credit for their hard work just as much much as Avery does for his hard work, its a happy emulation world. lets keep it that way.. And if you are trying to write code that is cross-platform, and intended to run on Windows, Mac, Linux (x86 and ARM), etc... You sort of have to write your own GUI. I had no idea that was done to help with cross-platform compatibility. My expertise lies in hardware and storage devices, not software development. In any case I have both Atari 800 Emulator 3.1.0 and Altirra for my virtual Atari consoles. And A8E310 is my premier choice for showing off Star Raiders. Regarding WinPlus making a comeback? Dunno.. Once an emulator falls off the map it usually doesn't spring back. Edited April 22, 2016 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted April 22, 2016 Share Posted April 22, 2016 Regarding WinPlus making a comeback? Dunno.. Once an emulator falls off the map it usually doesn't spring back. Sad but true, over the many years I've seen some wonderful emulators go for a variety of reasons, the worst reason being abuse from users in one case, I'd love to see the emulator pSX come back, the author made huge strides in PSX emulation in such a short time and then he or she was gone... Life has its own schedule..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted April 23, 2016 Share Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) Hi Phaeron, Hmmm, "Hard disk setup" seems to be erratic too. 1/ When I load a file as HD, 16GB is sets CHS to 33069/15/63. I change that to 31002/16/63, the real values of a 16Gb card. Click OK and OK, enter the setup again and the 33069/15/63 values are back. 2/ Now from the emulation, when I do the "Identify-command", I get 16383/16/255 back. ??? I'm running Windows_10_Home / test30 Can you have a look at this (and my previous post)? Thanks. Later, Sijmen. Edited April 23, 2016 by mr-atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted April 23, 2016 Author Share Posted April 23, 2016 I have some fixes pending but need to do more testing. Regarding the IDENTIFY DEVICE command -- ATA-4 requires word 1 to be 16383 when the device has 16514064 or more sectors, and prohibits either the default or current CHS translation from reporting more than that. By the way. Could you remind me where I can find the CPLD update for MyIDE-II to enable the video playback window? My device doesn't support it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyrhyme Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) Hello, Have a question (mini-request?). Is it possible to add Retroarch CG shaders to this emu? They have some advanced NTSC / CRT shaders that are better than Blargg's libraries and can also reproduce monitor effects. And I greatly prefer using the standalone emu instead of a buggy, outdated, sometimes poorly ported Retroarch core (Stella plugin is outdated and feature-lacking). edit: And give another advantage over Atari800 shaders - ntsc, crt, tv, other http://libretro.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9 Retroarch CG was recently added to this nes emulator (punes = very high accuracy) and it gives nostalgic TV feel when played with gamepads. http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6928 sdl - opengl - cg shader https://github.com/punesemu/puNES/blob/1d3952123b525d2fb15e6b8582a78c9fc6acbc01/src/video/sdl/opengl.c see: #if defined (WITH_OPENGL_CG) Thank you for any consideration and response, explanation, rejection. (having it for Stella would be nice too but that's way OT for another sub-forum) Edited April 24, 2016 by easyrhyme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaeron Posted April 24, 2016 Author Share Posted April 24, 2016 Update: http://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-2.80-test31.zip http://www.virtualdub.org/beta/Altirra-2.80-test31-src.zip Some fixes to enhanced text mode for refresh problems when switching modes. Autosizing works better for hardware mode now and modes 6 and 7 (GR.1/2) now use proper colors. Also, fixed some problems with gaps due to the OS not exactly matching requested font sizes. Select+Copy Text is also now supported in hardware mode. Fixed MyIDE-II reset/power register behavior. It should now match the hardware, including behavior when $D50E is written without a CF card. Fixed glitch with raw hard disk setting saving. Temporary profile mode is now supported. This suppresses saving back changes to the profile. This can also be activated from the command line via /tempprofile. Have a question (mini-request?). Is it possible to add Retroarch CG shaders to this emu? They have some advanced NTSC / CRT shaders that are better than Blargg's libraries and can also reproduce monitor effects. And I greatly prefer using the standalone emu instead of a buggy, outdated, sometimes poorly ported Retroarch core (Stella plugin is outdated and feature-lacking). Theoretically yes, practically, not at the moment. Altirra supports three different 3D acceleration modes -- D3D9, D3D11, and OpenGL -- and the OpenGL path is the least capable of the three. (GLSL? What's that?) There's also all sorts of stupid annoying things with trying to do cross-API shader compatibility which would have to be handled. The most annoying one is the stupid screen-space coordinate system chosen by D3D9 which is off by half a pixel. Then there's the internal pipeline, which already has conversion shaders that would have to be bolted to the external shaders. It's also solvable, but a big pain in the butt to deal with. Minor nitpick, looking at the spec... non-RLE TARGA? Really? Run-length encoding was too much to handle? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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